Hey y'all, looks like the pope might be about to die

[GGKoul]

Raping children is bad.

[ChadTower]

  And that is what history will remember him for.

I live here in MA in Catholic child rape central.  They just closed a church a couple of miles from my house where dozens of children are known to have been molested over the last 30 years and it's assumed that as many as a couple hundred more likely were and are keeping it to themselves.

Here, he will be remembered as the man who saved Cardinal Bernard Law from prosecution for his crimes and rewarded Law with a lavish position at the Vatican.

In my eyes, this does cancel out anything else he's done. 

[HaRuMaN]

catholics need no longer be embarrassed by easter sermons. perhaps the new pope will make it so that he isnt pope for life. oh, and maybe get with the times and allow contraception...

[Monty Python]
o/~  Every sperm is sacred...
[/Monty Python]

[HaRuMaN]

<---  Ooh the evil post count, here in the POPE thread!   

[GGKoul]

[ChadTower]

It's been suggested that Massachusetts Attorney General Thomas Reilly was being soft on Law to protect his elected position among Catholic voters.

He was to begin with, that is true.  It wasn't long before public pressure, even among those Catholic voters, wanted him held accountable for his role in these crimes.  I am not exaggerating when I say that when Reilly made a public statement that he was drawing up an indictment for Law that within two weeks Law had resigned as Cardinal and was made a "special advistor" to the Vatican AT the Vatican.  They saved his ass as a reward for covering this crap up for as long as he did.

[shmokes]

If the Pope condoned child molestation or protected those who participated in it or knowingly allowed it to take place I hope he burns in hell, if there is a hell.

If it was the chief of police, the attorney general, the governor or the president pardoning someone responsible for the exact same thing people would have a come-apart, even if it was FDR or Ronald Reagan.  It wouldn't matter what else was on their resumes, people would be calling for blood.  But if it's the pope who is protecting him, well, that must mean god is for child molestation and we can't be against god.  Gimme a break.

[Dartful Dodger]

If you

[GGKoul]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2004/05/28/pope_names_law_to_ceremonial_position_in_rome/


http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2004/s1118029.htm

[ChadTower]

Actually, no one is debating it because it's not debatable.  Law did the things I say he did and it is documented.  The Pope did what I say he did and it is documented.  These are facts, clear, true, and easily proven.

[GGKoul]

Actually, no one is debating it because it's not debatable.

[danny_galaga]

catholics need no longer be embarrassed by easter sermons. perhaps the new pope will make it so that he isnt pope for life. oh, and maybe get with the times and allow contraception...

[Monty Python]
o/~

[jbox]

Actually, no one is debating it because it's not debatable.  Law did the things I say he did and it is documented.  The Pope did what I say he did and it is documented.  These are facts, clear, true, and easily proven.

Agreed. I think the bitter-sweet irony is that the people who are most horrified by this are the people who want to believe the message, but have only just now come to realise that you can't always trust the messenger. I think that scandals like these are worse than a million "evolution" papers, and the Church's indecision towards stomping down on them like an Old Testament God is (in hindsight) going to be one of the major causes of its slow and painful death march. 

Personally, I believe that any non-congregationally elected church is doomed, and haven't considered myself Catholic for a very long time. Because of that, the people I feel most sorry for are the abuse victims that still want to hold that membership even with what has happened to them. Having worked with people who have been traumatised, the key to their healing is never in punishing anyone**, but in them coming to terms with the fact that it's over. My main worry is how people can reach that point if they keep showing up every week to the exact same environment, denying themselves the kind of change that demonstrates their ability to retake ownership of their lives again? 



** = 'key' != 'everything', so in a case where someone is a repeat offender locking them up may be the only way to make it 'over'. Just that it is the stopping that is most important, not punishing. Having 50% of the worlds' Catholics switch denominations next Sunday is going to do more good in the long term than simply having a few dozen priests locked up (although I would like to see both happen).

[jbox]

hehe. what ive never understood is why contraception is not allowed. one would imagine its because god wants you to be trying to make a baby every time you do 'it'. ok, so if you have a condom or are on the pill then obviously you are hoping you ARENT making a baby. so far, so good. so what about the rhythm method or good old fashioned 'pulling out'? isnt that 'doing it' with the hope that you arent making babies? surely god knows you dont want a baby and so that is a sin?

Let's be completely honest about this, that the real reason they don't mind the rythm or withdrawal methods is that they don't work. If they worked with anywhere near the percentage that either of the others did you can bet they would be on the list too. "Now honey, you know God doesn't like it when you only consent some of the time..."   

Officially of course, it's not specifically about you *wanting* or not wanting a baby, although I assume it is sinful to not be fruitful and multiply, it's mostly about whether or not you've given God some good odds for making life should He choose to do so (aka 'open to love and open to life'). Apparently microscopically tearing the tip is not on God's "To-Do" list, even though He could just blame it on Entropy, but keeping little J alive for over a week is.   

oh, and whats with the celebacy? for the first 1000 years or so god though it was ok for priests to be married. then he changed his mind?

Some of the kids actually started winning court cases about inherenting some of the land/assets their dad's were working on. That's what put a stop to it, the $$$'s were going the wrong way. 

[danny_galaga]

apparently toothe church was getting embarrassed by the priests 'antics' with the opposite sex. obviously in those times they thought that if you arent married, you arent having sex and therefore you must be pure 

[shmokes]

I don't see why god is against birth control.  What does she need us for?  If I know my Bible stories, Mary was practicing a pretty solid form of birth control.

[ChadTower]

apparently toothe church was getting embarrassed by the priests 'antics' with the opposite sex. obviously in those times they thought that if you arent married, you arent having sex and therefore you must be pure

[Bones]

hehe. what ive never understood is why contraception is not allowed. one would imagine its because god wants you to be trying to make a baby every time you do 'it'. ok, so if you have a condom or are on the pill then obviously you are hoping you ARENT making a baby. so far, so good. so what about the rhythm method or good old fashioned 'pulling out'? isnt that 'doing it' with the hope that you arent making babies? surely god knows you dont want a baby and so that is a sin?

I choose to fake orgasm.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

Fox News (as usual) says it best:

LOL. No, I'd say Dartful (as usual) says it best, by quoting Fox News as gospel. LOL.
I can never tell if you are being serious...



mrC

[rchadd]

On TV everybody is going on and on about how marvellous he was? But why? What did he really do anything that was so "Great"

people want to make him a saint..

I just don't get it - did i miss something?

reminds me of all that wailing that happened here when Diana died - coudn't careless about her either

[Dartful Dodger]

reminds me of all that wailing that happened here when Diana died - coudn't careless about her either

LOL, I was afraid Michael Jackson was going to kill himself the same time the Pope died. 

Mother Teresa died right after Diana.  When the news showed pictures of Mother Teresa they used pictures of her and Diana.  The death of Mother Teresa the saint was over shadowed by the death of a Diana the gold digger.

He wasn't a saint but now the press will have time in their news stories to explain to you what a great man he was, and all the good he's done in the world.

[rchadd]

reminds me of all that wailing that happened here when Diana died - coudn't careless about her either

I was afraid Michael Jackson was going to kill himself

you can see that coming

[jbox]

On TV everybody is going on and on about how marvellous he was? But why? What did he really do anything that was so "Great"?

What do you think is "Great"? A nobel prize? A cure for AIDS? A best-selling book about two young wizards and a witch? Masterminding a plan to control the world which also kills hundreds of thousands of people? A woman with a full-time job who still manages to raise a couple of well-adjusted kids on her own? 

To say that in the balance of things that his "negative" actions outweigh his "positive" actions is one thing, and is an evaluation of his actions based on how you weigh each one. But why not say that being involved in an illegal organisation that could be punished with execution is piffle, or how about that him spending almost 20% of his rulership outside of the Vatican was probably just him 'cruising for chicks'. 

I think he made some damningly bad choices, primarily because (a) he really believed in the 'righteousness' of his own organisation; and (b) his minders took great pains to filter the news that came to him (aka. the 'Fox' defense). But compared to their peers who just sat around and did nothing but get waited on hand and foot both Wojtyla and Diana at least tried to get out and do something useful with their position.  Judge them to have failed if you will, but you can't ignore that at least they made the effort. 

[GGKoul]

I'm not Catholic, I'm Greek Orthodox.  But I'm a strong believer with all the positive things John Paul did over the 28 years he was pope. 

John Paul did things a lot differently them other Popes before him.  He was out in public when ever he could, we visited places where other popes never dared to visit before.  He brought young people back to the Catholic church.  He reached out to other religions to try to mend centuries of separation.  As regardless of what Christian denomination you are, we all believe in the same Supreme Being.  As he tried to get conversations going again.  He apologised for past Popes actions by not assisting Jews in WWII.  He even visited Auschwitz to share show support to the Jews.  Plus lets not forget all he did aid to help bring freedom to Poland and the rest of the Soviet Union.  Would they be free countries today if an Italian else was the Pope?  I don't think so. 

He reached many people all over the world.  And outside of the US, he is remember for all the positives things he did around the world for spreading positive beliefs and bringing people back to the church. 

[shmokes]

and pro-child molestation

[monkeybomb]

and encourage third world moms to stay pregnant

and guilt gay teens to suicide

and keep women out of power in his cult

and wear a rediculous hat

and...

[fredster]

I think it would be difficult not to make a mistake in 26 years of being in charge of an organization so large.  The Pope did a lot of things and stayed true to his principles, and that's what he will be remembered for.

Whether he knew the full extent of the crimes and had an accurate understanding of what went on is another thing.  He was a very good man, and he fought a good fight for a long time.  I'm not religious in any sense of the word, but I do respect somebody who holds true, and the Pope held true to his beliefs.

Cardnial Law and people like him did a great harm to their cause and their people by protecting these weasels.  Maybe in some twisted sense of loyalty Law thought he was protecting the church and it's integrity.  I don't blame the Pope for what these priests did.

I have no idea what kind of politics runs in the Catholic church.  It has to be very competitive to reach the Rome level I'm sure.  There has to be as many back room deals made there as there is in any government, with nearly as many levels of bureaucrats.

I would hope that people would remember what the Pope himself did as a world leader, and not what a segment of his church did half a world away.

Law himself should be held responsible for what he did.  Which was protect and enable these child molesters.  Why that didn't happen we will never know.  I hope that the new Pope will rectify the situation by retiring him to whatever shame is supposed to happen to these priests who shame the church and the people.

[ChadTower]

I think it would be Cardnial Law and people like him did a great harm to their cause and their people by protecting these weasels.

[DrewKaree]

What do you think is "Great"? A nobel prize? A cure for AIDS? A best-selling book about two young wizards and a witch? Masterminding a plan to control the world which also kills hundreds of thousands of people? A woman with a full-time job who still manages to raise a couple of well-adjusted kids on her own? 

Boobs.....and bacon.

And a hush fell over the crowd, and the people whispered "Amen, brother, Amen!"

[GGKoul]

and pro-child molestation

When I last check, Child Molestation was against the Law.  Then if you say the Pope was pro-child molestation, then I assume the State Attorney Generals office is pro-child molestation too.  As the Attorney Generals office did nothing as well.

[monkeybomb]

I don't know the hard core details, but if the attorny general didn't follow through on his obligations then that is a fair statement...just like it is fair to the pope.

[GGKoul]

I think it would be Cardnial Law and people like him did a great harm to their cause and their people by protecting these weasels.

[GGKoul]

and encourage third world moms to stay pregnant

and guilt gay teens to suicide

and keep women out of power in his cult

and wear a rediculous hat

and...

If one believes in a Reglion, then one must follow the rules of the reglion.

[ChadTower]

The Pope did what was in his power to stop this.  He called a meeting with the US cardinals and spoke to them about this topic.

Bull.  It is in his power to shut down the entire Archdiocese if he deems it necessary.

The State of MA where this was happening had more power to stop this actions from taking place then the Pope did.  As they could have arrested all involved and put them on trial for breaking the law.  But, that has never happened...

And the MA AG was trying very hard to do so.  The Church spent two years failing to provide requested documentation, hiding potential interviewees, and openly obstructing justice.  People actually were indicted for obstruction of justice and a few priests were tried and convicted of child molestation.  Unfortunately, not enough were found out and punished before they fled and/or died since these folks are so damn old.

[GGKoul]

Chadtower, you definitely know more about this topic as you live in the area and heard all about this everyday in the news.

But I think we can agree that both the Pope and the AG office where at fault.  As they both could have done more to stop and punish the individuals involved.  Because if reglion wasn't involved in this case, the rapists would be in jail by now.

[ChadTower]

I do live in the area, I also am close with multiple victims.  One of the worst of the offenders was at a church a couple of miles from my house and he tore a swatch of victims across our community for 15 years.

The AG did what they could, which wasn't much, since the Catholic Church has more power here than the gov't does.  At least they did until this hit.

[mr.Curmudgeon]

And if they commit a sin they have to confess and repent their sins.

Which is exactly why these child molester priests will die happy and comforted, knowing they've been forgiven once they repented. The victims will remain tortured in their own personal hell, since how can you ask God, "forgive me for being raped?"

Sometimes religion is nothing more than a crutch for the worst of humanity. It's a "get out of responsibility free" card, since the "devil made me do it."

Why do you think it is that every serial killer or murderer on death row suddenly finds God after they've been sentenced? I prefer that the sin (in these sorts of heinous crimes) stay with the sinner and add to the stink of their rotten "souls".


mrC

[ChadTower]

You've hit upon the main problem... very few of those involved have ever repented, and therefore even by their own standards they cannot be forgiven.  Admission - contrition - forgiveness.  We haven't seen either of the first two conditions from the individuals nor the institution.

[GGKoul]

And if they commit a sin they have to confess and repent their sins.

Which is exactly why these child molester priests will die happy and comforted, knowing they've been forgiven once they repented. The victims will remain tortured in their own personal hell, since how can you ask God, "forgive me for being raped?"

Sometimes religion is nothing more than a crutch for the worst of humanity. It's a "get out of responsibility free" card, since the "devil made me do it."

Why do you think it is that every serial killer or murderer on death row suddenly finds God after they've been sentenced? I prefer that the sin (in these sorts of heinous crimes) stay with the sinner and add to the stink of their rotten "souls".

Hence the reason why the State has laws that know one can't "repent" out off.

[shmokes]

and pro-child molestation

When I last check, Child Molestation was against the Law.  Then if you say the Pope was pro-child molestation, then I assume the State Attorney Generals office is pro-child molestation too.  As the Attorney Generals office did nothing as well.

A bit difficult for the State Attorney General's office to go after Law since he has conveniently been moved into the Vatican, a sovereign nation that might be a little bit reluctant to extradite.