Keyboard Encoder, I-Pac, KB16, other?

[Squeeky]

Hey guys I tried to do some searching for info on the Tokn KB16 which is sold on E-Bay but I can't find anything.  I'm looking to build a control panel to interact with projector/mame similar to a showcase cab, but wall as monitor.  My plan is a total of 42 keys.

4 Joys, 4 Player Buttons, 1&2 player 6 button, 3&4 4 button, 2 Mame Buttons.

I'm looking into serveral keyboard encoders and wonder which would be the best.  I'm interested if anyone has used the KB16 by Tokn.  It's very inexpensive and you can supposedly daisy chain them in order for more inputs.

Also can I run a standard USB wireless keyboard with most keyboard encoders for all other applications?

[M3talhead]

4 out of 5 guys on this board are going to recommend Ultimarc products. You cant beat em with a stick and Andy gives excellent customer support. I've built 2 cabs and both use I-pacs.

[Hoagie_one]

4 out of 5 guys on this board are going to recommend Ultimarc products. You cant beat em with a stick and Andy gives excellent customer support. I've built 2 cabs and both use I-pacs.

I'm #5.

Keywiz \ gpwiz \ gp49.  If for nothing else, price point.

[Squeeky]

I'm curious if I use the KeyWiz 49-W, can I use the one encoder for all 4 players, just have them set up at 4x 8way?  If so this seems like it would be the way to go.  I'm also new at this and like I-pacs programming interface can I use this wit other Encoders?

[Hoagie_one]

depend on the number of buttons you need.

4 players with no buttons at all needs 16 inputs.
credit and start buttons = 8 inputs.

thats 24 right their without buttons.

[Squeeky]

Look like I'll be choosing the I-Pac4.  For the reason of cost and it will run all my arcade controls.  As I don't plan on using a track ball anytime soon.

Am I missing any buttons (Want to make sure I have everything covered:

4x Player Buttons
4x Coin Buttons
2x Mame controls
12x Players 1&2
6x Players 3&4
16x Joysticks

I was trying to think of a 4-player game that requires more then 3 buttons.  If you know of any let me know I may add a button for 3&4.

Thanks for the quick help guys I've found this to be one of my new homes

[Hoagie_one]

cant think of any 4 player games that need more than 3 buttons

[Tiger-Heli]

I was trying to think of a 4-player game that requires more then 3 buttons.  If you know of any let me know I may add a button for 3&4.

The dungeons and dragons games were 4-player and 4 buttons.

[mattp]

Squeeks,
go to www.tokn.net for some pdf docs or buy now on the TOKN KB16.
There's great deals on bundled shipping.
Sorry, can't post site links on eBay. They frown upon that.
The passthrough on KB16 works very well. It has EEPROM too. A must have.
I great deal of time was spent cost reducing the design and still keeping it
fast and with the good features like standalone or passthrough, EEPROM, LED, etc.
Passes mashing the buttons like a monkey with no lockups. We didn't actually use any monkeys but we beat on it with waveform generators. Works exactly as described.
Cheers,
Matt (matt.palumbo@comcast.net)

[elvis]

I'm #5.

Keywiz \ gpwiz \ gp49.  If for nothing else, price point.

One thing I prefer about the KeyWiz over the I-Pac is the "Shazaam" key being a separate key, unlike the I-Pac which by default maps it to P1 start.

I've built cabs that young kids play on, and after much random button mashing they always seem to set off the shited key functions, and all of a sudden they're in volume/input config menus, or have paused the game.  Yes, you can program the thing and turn it off, but Ithink the KeyWiz idea of making it an entirely separate button is the smart thing to do.

Other than that, both are excellent products that are more than deserving of your money.

[Tiger-Heli]

Since it was mentioned, here are my thoughts on the TOKN-16.

I can't get to the TOKN website, so I can't verify price, but I think it was on the order of what you would pay for the KeyWiz ECO (with pin header) or the GP-Wiz ECO.  UPDATE:  On E-bay, seems to be going for about $10.50, or about half before shipping of what a KeyWiz Eco would be.

And I know I need to add the data for it to my comparision pages.

However, assuming that price point is correct, I have a hard time recommending it over the KeyWiz products for the following reasons:

Sixteen inputs vs. 32.

No shift (Shazaaam!) function for additional inputs.

Matrix rather than common ground wiring.

Programmable in a manual sense, but no way to load a custom codeset through software.

None of these are showstoppers in and of themselves, and I think the unit does what it does well (i.e. roughly the equivalent of a programmable keyboard hack, with a working pass-thru).

Basically, it makes sense for someone say building a cab for a single player, for MAME only, and extremely concerned about cost, who doesn't want to bother with hacking a keyboard, and wants their choice of arcade keys.

[JoyMonkey]

Assuming you'll be using Windows, I'd use a KeyWiz for Players 1 & 2 and a USB GP-Wiz for players 3 & 4. This is a more affordable option and I'm a big fan of RandyT's products (that said, I don't doubt that the IPac is excellent).
Also, I'd give Players 1 & 2 six buttons each - seems that people that like 4 player games also like fighters.

Players 1 & 2: 4 - Directionals 6 - Buttons 1 - Start Button

Players 3 & 4:  4 - Directionals  4 - Buttons  1 - Start Button[/color]

Additional Buttons: 1 - Shazam (aka shift)
Total inputs: 41

You don't need all those extra administrative buttons (for coins etc) - just use the Shazam key or button combos, this will help your panel look less cluttered and means less work for you.
For example, in Mame you can set Coin1 = Shift and P1 Button1 , Exit = P1 Start and P2 Start.

[Tiger-Heli]

Assuming you'll be using Windows, I'd use a KeyWiz for Players 1 & 2 and a USB GP-Wiz for players 3 & 4. This is a more affordable option and I'm a big fan of RandyT's products (that said, I don't doubt that the IPac is excellent).

Agreed, and I like this option, although you could alternatively use the GP-Wiz for Players 1 and 2 and the KeyWiz for 3 and 4, or a combination.  For MAME, it doesn't make a difference, but it depends whether your other programs are geared more toward keyboard or gamepad input.

Also, I'd give Players 1 & 2 six buttons each - seems that people that like 4 player games also like fighters.

Agreed in general.

Total inputs: 41
You don't need all those extra administrative buttons (for coins etc) - just use the Shazam key or button combos. For example, in Mame you can set Coin1 = Shift and P1 Button1 , Exit = P1 Start and P2 Start.

OTOH, total inputs: 41 and the KW and GP-Wiz combined gives 64 inputs, so you have plenty to add 4 start, 4 coin, and Pause and Escape without button combos if you wanted to.  Also, the KeyWiz has the option of 1-press combo buttons, so you can use these as well.

[mattp]

Make sure you realize that programming a codeset from the PC on the fly is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders DO NOT have
EEPROM for persistent storage of your settings. Read the fine print.
This means you have to reload everytime you unplug your encoder or restart the PC
which is very undesirable for desktop consoles.

The TOKN KB16 is designed as a cost reduction for commerical standup arcade,
typically 1P 2P alternating w/up to 8 gameplay and 4 control buttons
or 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each and 4 control.
TOKN KB16 also shines in the area of desktop consoles because you can connect many together with DIN cables. 8 or more! While connected in series, each player can still change their assignments! Something that you definitely can't manage with a PC shazzapp.

Don't let the eBay low prices fool you. Its a promotional campaign. If you get one cheap, then congrats, you've waited patiently. If you don't like waiting you can get them at tokn.net for about 25 a pop plus shipping. The lowest on the web for true passthru w/ EEPROM. Check em out....

[Tiger-Heli]

Make sure you realize that programming a codeset from the PC on the fly is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders DO NOT have
EEPROM for persistent storage of your settings. Read the fine print.
This means you have to reload everytime you unplug your encoder or restart the PC
which is very undesirable for desktop consoles.

Dead wrong!  I use my encoder for PC games as well as MAME^TM.  Each PC game needs a different codeset.  So I use the encoder software to load the different set.  This would be a useful feature whether the encoder uses EEPROM or SDRAM.  It would be a royal pain to change 32 (ermmn 16) key assignments MANUALLY each time I wanted to play a different game.

The TOKN KB16 is designed as a cost reduction for commerical standup arcade,
typically 1P 2P alternating w/up to 8 gameplay and 4 control buttons
or 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each and 4 control.

Okay, 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each, so basically a 1Player or classics cab (no 2P street fighter).

TOKN KB16 also shines in the area of desktop consoles because you can connect many together with DIN cables. 8 or more! While connected in series, each player can still change their assignments! Something that you definitely can't manage with a PC shazzapp.

Yes, but it takes two of them to get the number of inputs of a KeyWiz Eco, and the programming still needs to be done manually.

Don't let the eBay low prices fool you. Its a promotional campaign. If you get one cheap, then congrats, you've waited patiently. If you don't like waiting you can get them at tokn.net for about 25 a pop plus shipping. The lowest on the web for true passthru w/ EEPROM. Check em out....

I thought there was a pretty limited market for it at the E-bay prices, much less at $25 a pop plus shipping.

[RandyT]

Make sure you realize that programming a codeset from the PC on the fly is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders DO NOT have
EEPROM for persistent storage of your settings. Read the fine print.

This is like stating that a blinking LED is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders don't have a shift function..... 

This means you have to reload everytime you unplug your encoder or restart the PC
which is very undesirable for desktop consoles.

[sarcasm]
Wow, that really sucks.  You mean I might have to click on an icon and wait a few seconds when I plug in my stand-alone CP?  Or make a batch file for my front-end software to do it automatically?
[/sarcasm]

The TOKN KB16 is designed as a cost reduction for commerical standup arcade,
typically 1P 2P alternating w/up to 8 gameplay and 4 control buttons
or 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each and 4 control.

Sounds a little limiting.  No other ways to keep costs down other than using a chip with a small number of inputs?

TOKN KB16 also shines in the area of desktop consoles because you can connect many together with DIN cables. 8 or more! While connected in series, each player can still change their assignments! Something that you definitely can't manage with a PC shazzapp.

Please elaborate on the effects this has on performance. 

In the case of just 4 encoders chained together, when a player on that 4th encoder presses a button, it's data has to be inserted into the buffer of the 3rd encoder, and when it's time comes to be transmitted, it still doesn't go to the PC, rather into the buffer of the second enocder. From there it would go to the buffer of the first encoder, before finally being sent to the PC. 

I couldn't begin to imagine the latency issues that would come about with "8 or more" of your units chained together, so maybe I'm missing something that you could help explain.

BTW, I'm very interested in the "PC shazzapp", please tell me more

Don't let the eBay low prices fool you. Its a promotional campaign. If you get one cheap, then congrats, you've waited patiently. If you don't like waiting you can get them at tokn.net for about 25 a pop plus shipping. The lowest on the web for true passthru w/ EEPROM. Check em out....

(Hmmm...Ebay.   I should really start listing there )

According to your website, they are "about" $28.00 plus shipping.  Has there been a recent price reduction, or is that some of the "fine print" you mentioned in your post? 

BTW, if the unit was "designed as a cost reduction for commerical standup arcade, typically 1P 2P alternating w/up to 8 gameplay and 4 control buttons or 2P simultaneous with 2 gameplay buttons each and 4 control.", why did you find it important to give up 2 of your inputs to a keyboard passthrough?  I've seen inside quite a number of commercial arcade cabinets and haven't seen a keyboard yet .


You might also want to make your affiliation with the product clear when posting here so other members don't take your marketing speech as another user's honest opinion.  But to be fair, the low post count probably already tipped them off...

RandyT

[mattp]

Latency Question: If you can sense the .5msec it takes to transmit a keycode byte from encoder to encoder then you must really get tired during the 20msec switch debounce period.

Pretty blinking lights: Everybody wants one.

Series connected desktop consoles: Are you planning on running a 100 wires from player to player? How about the novel idea of no bottleneck passthrough via DIN cables?
DIN cabling makes for very clean wiring, especially with cocktail setups.

EEPROM scenario: PCs keyboard power glitches enough reset the encoder but not the PC.
Without EEPROM on the encoder, your only out is to pull the power on the PC and run a batch, to coin a phrase. Every good embedded platform deserves a well planned fault recovery method.

Last but not least. No soldering. Complete with connectors.
Simple valid points, all in fun.
Cheers.

[CheffoJeffo]

Let me get this straight ...

The TOKN16 is a no-solder option with a pass-through that supports 16 inputs per board at a price of $28, $50 for two (e.g. 32 inputs) and $100 for 4 (e.g. 64 inputs).

For more than 16 inputs (gonna be tough for two players and admin buttons), the cost is going to be $50 against $23 for the KeyWiz (no solder) or $35 for the KeyWizPro or $39 for an iPac2.

 [NOTE: Forgive me if I get my KeyWiz facts wrong ... I have not, as yet, used one in a project]

I am not trying to be a smart-ass (there has been enough of that in this thread already) ... just trying to understand the advantages ... and it appears that price point is not one ... unless you have a small CP or get a great deal on eBay ...

Cheers,

JAKD

[RandyT]

Latency Question: If you can sense the .5msec it takes to transmit a keycode byte from encoder to encoder then you must really get tired during the 20msec switch debounce period.

Sorry, but you will be having a difficult time convincing me that there would only be a 2ms latency for 4 encoders strung together via the PS/2 port.  I'm not talking about the time it takes for the byte to leave buffer A and enter buffer B, I'm talking about the time it takes from the moment the input is activated on Encoder 4 to the moment it leaves Encoder 1 for the PC.  And after you calculate that, we can talk about the 8+ encoder scenario.

And a 20ms debounce???   If every button is de-bounced for 20ms, that means that when playing a game with a 60hz refresh, your actions will be 1-frame behind before any other latency issues even start to be considered.  And yes, this really can (and does) matter.

Pretty blinking lights: Everybody wants one.

They aren't pretty if you can't see them from outside the box

Series connected desktop consoles: Are you planning on running a 100 wires from player to player? How about the novel idea of no bottleneck passthrough via DIN cables?
DIN cabling makes for very clean wiring, especially with cocktail setups.

How about USB gamepad based encoder consoles and a centralized hub?  This is a real "no bottleneck" scenario, which could give the status of every one of the inputs, every 10ms, which is half the time of your "debounce" period.

EEPROM scenario: PCs keyboard power glitches enough reset the encoder but not the PC.
Without EEPROM on the encoder, your only out is to pull the power on the PC and run a batch, to coin a phrase. Every good embedded platform deserves a well planned fault recovery method

I've never seen a power glitch that selectively targetted just the keyboard port.  Anything attached to the PS/2 port is getting it's power from the same source as the RAM, CPU and all the other support electronics.  Is there some reason the keyboard encoder is more susceptible than these other just as, if not more, important devices?   If such an unlikely thing occured, it would just mean clicking an icon again.  No powering down the PC.

Last but not least. No soldering. Complete with connectors.

I think you mean a "header", and that is a good thing for folks that don't like soldering irons....that's why other offerings use them as well .


RandyT

[elvis]

According to your website, they are "about" $28.00 plus shipping.  Has there been a recent price reduction, or is that some of the "fine print" you mentioned in your post? 

That caught my attention too.  $28 with fewer inputs than a $19 KeyWiz Eco.  Why would you even bother?

[mattp]

TOKN KB16
Q? Keycode propagation from one encoder to encoder is nominal 1ms. Guaranteed < 1.2ms.
How? TOKN KB16 runs a 16Mhz while the other encoders run 4 times slower at 4Mhz.

Why bother?
TOKN KB16 is the only encoder under $30 that supports persistent keycode storage
in EEPROM which means its hot pluggable and does not need a support program on the PC.

It has a diagnostic LED which is very handy in verifying your crimp connections are good.
This is a great visual aid during assembly and in the field.

TOKN KB16 is also the only encoder under $30 that supports true keyboard passthrough.
This means you can simultaneously use a keyboard during gaming for configuration.
This also means that you and friends can build individual desktop consoles and connect them in series with DIN cables. If you don't support passthrough, you can't do this.
A toggle switch does not satisfy true passthrough.

Comes with a pin header which is easier to install and service than screw terminals.
No soldering required.

Inexpensive bundled shipping. Available in eBay free bid promotion starting at a $0.25

Unfiltered feedback from eBay customers.

[Lilwolf]

KeyWiz Ecos - 21 bucks each

TOKN KB16
Why bother?
TOKN KB16 is the only encoder under $30 that supports persistent keycode storage
in EEPROM which means its hot pluggable and does not need a support program on the PC.

[JoyMonkey]

I don't see custom keycodes (persistent or not) being a huge selling point.  The KeyWiz (and IPac as far as I can tell) comes with the standard Mame keys programmed by default. Rather than reprogram the encoder, it's easier to just remap your softwares controls to match Mame's standard keys.

[RandyT]

TOKN KB16
Q? Keycode propagation from one encoder to encoder is nominal 1ms. Guaranteed < 1.2ms.
How? TOKN KB16 runs a 16Mhz while the other encoders run 4 times slower at 4Mhz.

I'm not aware of any encoders that run as slow as 4mhz, but the speed of the processor has little to do with the speed of the PS/2 port or it's protocol.

How are you prioritizing activity on the bus?  Does the input processing get held off while the microcontroller transforms itself into a PS/2 host for receiving data or vice-versa?  It can't do both at the same time.

Why bother?
TOKN KB16 is the only encoder under $30 that supports persistent keycode storage
in EEPROM which means its hot pluggable and does not need a support program on the PC.

It's also the only encoder over $20 that:

- Has no means of storing and uploading keycode sets via the PC
- Uses a matrix, so it requires twice the number of wires from the encoder to the controls.
- Has no "shift" feature
- Has at least a dozen less inputs

BTW, there are no encoders that need a support program on the PC.  There's a difference between needing something and having the ability to use it.

It has a diagnostic LED which is very handy in verifying your crimp connections are good.
This is a great visual aid during assembly and in the field.

This is probably useful in some circumstances, but can't take the place of a good piece of diagnostic software like GhostKey, which is far more useful for this kind of thing.

TOKN KB16 is also the only encoder under $30 that supports true keyboard passthrough.
This means you can simultaneously use a keyboard during gaming for configuration.
A toggle switch does not satisfy true passthrough.

With the cost savings through other options, one could buy a USB keyboard and use it simultaneously as well (if it was actually important to do so in a gaming cabinet), and this approach places no demands whatsoever on the device responsible for the gaming controls.   But as this true passthrough is a necessity for programming your unit, it's more important for it to exist on your unit than on other varieties.

This also means that you and friends can build individual desktop consoles and connect them in series with DIN cables. If you don't support passthrough, you can't do this.

There are many ways to skin that proverbial cat.  And whether yours is the best one is a matter of opinion.  My opinion is that it is not.

Comes with a pin header which is easier to install and service than screw terminals.

This crowd is too savvy to buy this statement.  The only way a pin header is easier to install is if you have pre-made harnesses (meaning you already paid someone else to do the work for you...can't get easier than that ) and are cranking out panels in a production environment.  Then again, considering that your product requires twice as many wires to be run from encoder to controls, there may be an advantage in doing this for your setup.

Pin headers are cost saving measures, not superior options.

RandyT

[Lilwolf]

YEAH WHAT HE SAID!

but really... the ability to change the keys was very important for me when I was using IDE cables.  because they where such a pain to cable.  You cable everything.  Find what each is connected to later... Then configure.

But I still prefer to change the mame defaults to Z, X, C, A, S, D... mainly because then I can use them on the keyboard when I don't have a control panel plugged in.

So usefull... but not needed nearly as much as it did on my MK64

[mattp]

Bottom line on TOKN KB16.
If you need less than 16 inputs as does a single player console,
and you want passthrough, EEPROM, and the LED feature, and you don't
feel like soldering, pick one up on eBay. You'll likely get it under the 20 marker. If you don't like waiting hit tokn.net.
Cheers,
Matt

[mattp]

TOKN KB16
Q? Keycode propagation from one encoder to encoder is nominal 1ms. Guaranteed < 1.2ms.
How? TOKN KB16 runs a 16Mhz while the other encoders run 4 times slower at 4Mhz.

I'm not aware of any encoders that run as slow as 4mhz, but the speed of the processor has little to do with the speed of the PS/2 port or it's protocol.

How are you prioritizing activity on the bus?

[Tiger-Heli]

Saint,
This group of threads was launched by a registered user of
your forum with the primary intent of denigrating a competitor's
product. This type of sleaze marketing is common and unfortunately
a gross misuse of public domain.

See this link to an internet marketing newletter that summarizes these
practices. http://www.apexpacific.com/newsletters/nl2004apr.html

I'll close by stating that I'm leaving
it up to the mediator of this forum and those involved
to examine the user profile registation dates and thread contents
for signs of this type of abuse.

Thank you and best regards,
Mattp
Tokn Media

Looks more to me like Squeeky started this thread in search of information on your (TOKN KB16) product and YOU didn't like the factual answers he received.

Also probably as an effort by you to bump the thread to gain recognition for your product rather than contacting Saint through E-mail or on the Website forum.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Saint,

If you read this thread from the top, MattP is the first to denigrate a competitor's product in this thread.

Tiger Heli (who is a CUSTOMER of GroovyGameGear) did a very nice point-by-point, even saying that the TOKN would work well for a 1-P panel.

That was followed up by this completely misleading slam on GGG by Mattp (who DOES have an interest in the TOKN sales)

Make sure you realize that programming a codeset from the PC on the fly is largely marketed as a feature in an attempt to cover up the fact that some encoders DO NOT have
EEPROM for persistent storage of your settings. Read the fine print.

The "abuse" as he claims it is due in large part to his own attempts to denigrate HIS competitors.

[nostrebor]

Mattp,

You decided to dig up a thread from April 8th and complain now Seems like the only "denigrating" going on in this "series" of threads is the self-generated denigration of your character as a member of these boards.

If you would like to earn my respect as a board member, I suggest the following:

1. stick to the facts about your product.
2. KISS rule. No-one want to hear some long winded technical explanation that simply could be explained by the term "matrix"
3. Give us laymen a little credit. We are not idiots.
4. Get active in the community, this forum is not just for your advertising use.
5. If you want to take your ball and go home, that's fine. But complain to the mods with PM. It will help your respect rating if you decide to come back.

That is all.

[saint]

This thread has been locked for posterity. Please feel free to continue to discuss this subject in a new thread as needed.

--- saint