Yoke Proto-Type Pictures (More Pics added)

[Gamecab]

Ok,

[Gamecab]

One more Pic -
Yoke2a.jpg

[ripzone]

Will they be the original dimensions as the Star Wars yoke?

Could we use an NOS overlay?

Thanks! Im a newbie on this yoke things!

[AmericanDemon]

That rocks!  Cant wait!

[armax]

you might as well put me down for one.  Looks sweet!

[Xiaou2]

good to hear that theres angled arms now.

  Some things youve got there make a little concern tho...

   You only have 1" or less ?  (hard to tell by pics)   From the control arms
to the base mount.     So basically, if you mounted this on a control panel, and pushed the arms forward, they wouldnt travel more than 1cm - then would smack into the panel.

  The cover shape is a bit odd.   Im suprised that the small box will fit the innards.   Again a proto with no inner pics?

  Another concern is the gear ratio.   From memmory I think the starwars controller main gear is like 2" in diameter....and had many more teeth per inch than what I see here. 

  With a smaller drive gear... your aiming will be less precise... because of a lower resolution.

  I realize its not easy to find the correct gears in quantity.... but then again, if someone is going to pay big bucks for the thing, they surely are going to want primo control.

  No show of how the springs are mounted also is concern.   

  Atari made '4wd'  type wheel and its poor design lead to the springs eating the metal holder and they would stop working.   This process took about 1month of arcade use.. then had to reorder the spring holders and rebuild them all over again.

 Obviously, you do not have the springs to show... so I cant fault you there.


  All in all, in not bashing your product - just trying to make sure its the best it can be.   Better to get all the bugs out than sell them and have them returned + bad rep + having to go back and redo them later.


 Edit:

   Took a peek at the diagrams in the starwars manual on klov.    Seems they used a rubber bumper system (4 bumpers)  to keep the yoke from turning too far left or right... and to take the abuse away from the yoke itself when slammed hard.    I do not see that on your design. 

 I can not decypher how they stopped the handle movments tho - as the diagram is a bit hard to see that detail.

 

[RandyT]

good to hear that theres angled arms now.

  Some things youve got there make a little concern tho...

   You only have 1" or less ?  (hard to tell by pics)   From the control arms
to the base mount.     So basically, if you mounted this on a control panel, and pushed the arms forward, they wouldnt travel more than 1cm - then would smack into the panel.

Looks like it to me as well. 

  Another concern is the gear ratio.   From memmory I think the starwars controller main gear is like 2" in diameter....and had many more teeth per inch than what I see here. 

  With a smaller drive gear... your aiming will be less precise... because of a lower resolution.

  I realize its not easy to find the correct gears in quantity.... but then again, if someone is going to pay big bucks for the thing, they surely are going to want primo control.

The only thing one needs to be concerned with is ratio, provided there is no "slop" in the gears.  As long as the gear ratio is identical to the original, the number of teeth is irrelevant.

In other words, if turning the yoke 40 degrees yielded an 80 degree turn at the pot, how you get it to do that isn't as important as just getting it done.

RandyT

[Tailgunner]

It's cool to finally see the prototype. I'll agree that the pics make it look like the grips will be really close to the control panel. If that ends up being the case a 3/4" spacer made to fit between the mounting plate and the control panel would solve any clearance issues.

No idea on the springs yet, but the original Atari yoke's spring setup is less than ideal. It works, but in doing so it chews up the post the springs act against. As far as the grip shaft in the originals, there's a 3/8" solid bar in the center that acts as both the bump stop and the post the springs act against.

Looking at the pictures pointed out something to me that I hadn't thought of before. If someone had a set of original grips from a parts yoke, it'd be quite easy to make adapters to fit them to the Gamecab yoke.

[1UP]

Hey Charlie, great to see this coming together!

[Tailgunner]

The shape was based on a different game (Roadblasters, I think) that used a smaller enclosure.  (I know, I helped a little on this design )  Also, the Star Wars enclosure had a LOT of empty space (about 1/2 of it was unused) so I don't think this is a problem.  A gear, a pot, a spring, how much bulk do you really need to house that?

True, but then that extra depth helped to get the grips away from the CP.

I believe the bumpers are internal to his design.

They were on the first Gamecab yoke, and they worked just fine.

He might be planning to use a wooden base to mount it, like the previous model.

That's possible, then again it might just be an optical illusion caused by the picture. Excepting the first pic the grips don't look angled to me, while I can vouch that the grip mounts have the exact angle as original Atari grips.

[Xiaou2]

 I donno what yoke you are talking about but starwars is pretty packed... with only exception to the very top space.. and even that isnt very big.

 The yoke box is big enough to house the large drive gear for better accuracy.   Also you can see its packed with dual springs, 2 external but hidden bumpers, and many other things.   

 Also note that because the box is about 5 inches - it allows them to place the handles near the front of the box so theres no need for a special rasied box.     

  While I applaud charles efforts... I also have to say that theres really good reasons that these controls were designed certain ways. 

 Its very dangerous/expensive to try to redesign them in other fashions.. as you may encounted problems with failures that these guys had already overcome long ago.    It also may change the feel and or control of the thing - which will upset and keep away potential fans/customers.

 

[Xiaou2]

and the rear...



And btw -  The reason Roadblasters was smaller, is because it wasnt as complex and also used Optical discs instead of pots.   

However... Optical yokes dont work so hot in mame. (calibration issues)
And even so... may need gearing for better accuracy as well.    Roadblasters didnt need as much accuracy in the Y axis afaik... at least, not compared to sw.

Edit:  Looking over a pic of  the  RoadBlaster internals... it appears that there is no Y axis.   The grips do NOT move back and forth. 
The only y axis in the game is the foot pedal.
 
 Also, just as thought, the rear uses optics.. but its 'geared' for more accuracy.

[1UP]

I donno what yoke you are talking about but starwars is pretty packed... with only exception to the very top space.. and even that isnt very big.

 The yoke box is big enough to house the large drive gear for better accuracy.

[Xiaou2]

 First off, Get your facts straight.   Roadblasters is Not an x y yoke.
KLOV is Not correct in its description.   Want proof?   Play the game... or, download the PDF on KLOV like I did, and you will clearly see that there is no Y axis on the wheel.    The only y is the gas foot pedal as stated.

   "That picture is a bit misleading"   - Actually its not.   I have a yoke, and have tooken them appart.  Used to work in the arcades for 3yrs as a manager/repair guy.    The size is mostly to allow for the nearly 3 inch diameter drive gear.

  Never claimed the Pot took up lots of room, but the gearing does.  If you reduced the teeth - them maybe you could reduce the size of the yoke.  However... that also makes it possible for gears to slip.   Or you could use smaller gears - but you lose accuracy.  Hmm... how do I know this???  I built my first proto with a direct drive (no gears), and windows didnt even want to calibrate it.  Then built another with 2 small gears... and while worked... not well... so bit the bullet and rebuilt the thing to hold the large gear - which works great.

 "hospitalized by your homemade, wooden yoke?"

 Obviously you misunderstand the wording.   Not physically dangerous, but rather expensive and time consuming in trying to reinvent the entire thing, rework the bugs and failures, and maintain quality...ect.   Trust me, my damn yoke probably cost well over 100$ worth of failed parts... days worth of rebuilds, searching and shopping.. ect.   In the end - I would have been better off buying a real controller... which in the end, I did.

 "There are many different ways to do things, and it's disappointing to see you pick apart"

  Im basically popping my opinion in there as I see fit.  I have just as much right as anyone else here to do so.   My intent is not to offend nor pick on Charlie - but as I stated, to help to make the product better.   I do not see anything wrong with that.

  I also am a customer for parts.   If I want something a certain way... Ill ask for it like that.   If I cant get it, Ill find a real one or make my own, as I choose not to accept a low standard of quality.   This is how I am, and Im sure others are as well.   

 Im sure many choose to keep their opinions to themselves because fear of getting beat down on the message board for making a critical comment.

[Xiaou2]

roadblasters

[Xiaou2]

 Further inspections and thoughts...

 If you turn the thing left (or right) and hold it there... then press forward with the grips... even If the thing is mounted to a narrow base - it looks like your fingers will hit the base.

 There dosnt appear to be enough clearence for the thing to move forward - except when the thing is centered.

[Tailgunner]

Xaou2 is correct about the Roadblasters wheel. I own one, along with 1.5 Atari XY yokes and a first generation Gamecab yoke.

As to the gears, Charlie is using a courser tooth pitch than Atari did. The chance of slippage is pretty slim, though the ones in my first generation yoke felt a little notchy till they wore in. As far as the accuracy, it's a matter of matching the gear ratio to the pot's travel. The Atari yoke has around 80 degrees of movement to cover the full range of a 5K pot.  A PC is expecting 100k pots, though there's no reason you can't use half the travel of a 200K pot of a quarter the travel of a 400k pot to get the proper range of resistance values. The last example would give you 0 to 100K in 90 degrees of travel, using a 1 to 1 gear ratio and small gears.

[Lilwolf]

Tailgunner, you have one new problem with what your saying about the pots.

Andys new analog apac reads the top / bottom to determine the location.  This SHOULD be more stable (especially with some older analog controllers that jump around a bit). 

The trouble... it will have problems with pots that only use a portion of the rotation.   Not horrid (just need to get in and calibrate) but something that he should consider.

Anyone producing analog controller for mame cabinets should probably take a close look and make sure it works with a A-Pac... It would be like writting a webpage and not test it on IE.

[Hoagie_one]

looking forward to this.

[daywane]

looks cool to me. as far as the debate.
Huh?
 what ?
parden me?
scratch head?
I must be blond. 
does it work
cool ..sell me one will ya.
16 mill would be fine for me. that is how thick your floor board is in your car.
I do not need it to take on a nuke blast. just a few teens. i am not putting it out for publick use 24 -7 .
just maybe 3  to 20 hrs a month.

[Gamecab]

Guys,

Just remember this is just a proto-type, and 90% of the reason for posting this is to get feedback from everyone.

I'll post the internal pics tonight (Stuck at work right now) as well as a few additional features on the yoke that deserve an explanation.

Just a few notes:
The gears are different in relation to the X and Y axis.  These were the only gears I had on hand.  In the end a better gear will be chosen and installed.  If anyone has a suggestion on a gear, please let me know and I'll buy them for testing.  The shafts diameter is .5" and the Pot diameter is .25".

Xiaou2 - I agree that the handles will need to be spaced further apart.  That is very easy fix, and thank you for pointing it out because I didn't really think about that upon assembly yesterday.  I did notice this error after I put it next to the SW Yoke that I own.

Gotta run for now.
Charlie
   

[Kremmit]

Tailgunner, you have one new problem with what your saying about the pots.

Andys new analog apac reads the top / bottom to determine the location.  This SHOULD be more stable (especially with some older analog controllers that jump around a bit). 

The trouble... it will have problems with pots that only use a portion of the rotation.   Not horrid (just need to get in and calibrate) but something that he should consider.

Anyone producing analog controller for mame cabinets should probably take a close look and make sure it works with a A-Pac... It would be like writting a webpage and not test it on IE.

I think Charlie said he's building it for the AKI, which I don't believe uses the top to bottom pot measuring process.  That said, A-Pac compatability would be nice..

[1UP]

Xiaou2, all I'm saying is that it's possible to fit a condensed version of the guts into a smaller enclosure.  If you wanted to, you could use some nanotech gears and sensors, and enclose the whole thing in a 1" housing.    All it requires is testing to ensure the performance is up to par.

The other thing to consider is that those old games went thru TONS of use and abuse, and many times the controls were built to handle not just the average player, but the idiots that would try to break the thing off when they didn't win, or when they were bored in an unattended laundromat.  The original yokes were built af very heavy gauge steel, and weighed a ton.  You could mount one to the ceiling and do pull-ups with it, and it would still stay together.

What we're talking about here is a unit made mostly for home use.  Most people are not going to be karate kicking something they spent beaucoup bucks to put together.  If it holds together better than your average plastic flight stick or steering wheel, then it should be fine.

I think it's only fair to wait for the test results before making further judgements.  I personally have every confidence in Charlie's judgement, so if he says it's good, that's enough for me to buy a test unit. 

[GGKoul]

I think it's only fair to wait for the test results before making further judgements.

[MameMaster!]

...for those wondering about comparisons to a real SW Yoke...here's a top down shot of mine. I don't have an "open" view but I would agree there's a decent amout of "empty" space in the main housing unit.....but I think Charlie's prototype is a step in the right direction....hey....the real yoke is a big item....a smaller unit would be welcome on most cabs.....

MameMaster! 
PS- Good luck Charlie...I hope you can pull this off.....I'll probably buy one too!....

[MameMaster!]

here's a blurry pic from Jude's page on his SW Yoke hack...

http://www.arcadecontrols.com/arcade_jude.shtml

[NIVO]

just a note here, maybe not time for this just yet as you are still in the engineering stage. But a usb hot pluggable option will go a long way as well. As most of us will build a separate panel for this badboy. Lookin good so far Charlie. 

[1UP]

here's a blurry pic from Jude's page on his SW Yoke hack...

I'm sayin! 

[Gamecab]

just a note here, maybe not time for this just yet as you are still in the engineering stage. But a usb hot pluggable option will go a long way as well. As most of us will build a separate panel for this badboy. Lookin good so far Charlie.

[Xiaou2]

"Xiaou2 - I agree that the handles will need to be spaced further apart.  That is very easy fix, and thank you for pointing it out because I didn't really think about that upon assembly yesterday.  I did notice this error after I put it next to the SW Yoke that I own."

  I think this basically says it all 1up.     (ugg, i feel so dirty using that smarta$$'y wink.. but lets see how you like it)    Thanks Charlie


"I think it's only fair to wait for the test results before making further judgements"

   Judgements?   Where?    These were technical observations and appropriate technical feedback.  Not a harsh attack nor a personal verdict.

"it's possible to fit a condensed version of the guts into a smaller enclosure"

   Anything is possible.  However, at what costs?    For example...Trying to assemble or fix small things that are in a tight compacted shell is not easy.
(ever try to add a stick of ram to compact  pc?  Its a nightmare!)

 Smaller High teeth count  gears also mean that they can slip and strip much easier.   And, they have to be much more precisely lined up...  cause a millimeter off and the gears will shread to bits.    A flex in material would cause major havok to such gear systems.    Which is why they use thin and short length shafts for these.

 But you should know this cause your an expert on mechanical things arnt you?

 "made mostly for home use"

   Well lets talk about durrability.   On my spyhunter arcade machine... I play the game very agressive.   In that game you really have to.   You have to bump cars off the road by using a Fast slam of the wheel.   This works fine with the arcade wheel because it has huge rubber stoppers to absorb the impact.   Starwars isnt as impact problematic... but then again,  someone may choose to play spyhunter with this yoke.   

   With an all plastic wheel... its light and even slammed hard will not generate that much force to worry about.   However...  a heavy, mostly metal yoke, will generate much greater force when in motion due to the momentum of the weigh.   This will need a good bumper system to keep the thing from ripping appart.   
 
 These are valid mechanical concerns... brought up, because it may be something that wasnt thought of.

   "Xiaou2, all I'm saying..."

  Is that you dont like me having an opposing opinion to you and voicing it.
You dont want my comments to somehow de-rail Charlie from production or setting the production date further back.   Maybe, You want the yoke smaller than the sw design - so that it will better fit your control panel?  (though i think the original size would work fine)

  Well, Im all for the thing to be built... but Im also all for a quality device.   The thing could be made of wood and still be fine - so long as its springs are right, bumpers are there, and gears are ratio'd as close to the originals as possible. (high resolution)  Those are the most important features.

 Kissing peoples butts does not help to insure a good product gets released for us all.   Im truthfull and tell it like it is.   


  I think charlie - that even of you spaced the handles appart more, youd still have some troubles.   Also, the wide grip may change the way the angles of the handels would be, thus making it less comfortable or just plain ugly and awkward. (wide grip also means slower reation times)  Now, if you mean, to space them away from the base more.. then thats a good move.

 

[Lilwolf]

Please move the non-yoke comments into another thread.  This should be about a new product, not politics... (ewe... we dont' usually get much politics around here...)

Anyway..

Will you sell just the shell itself? 

I have a full hydra controller, but it has a weighted Y axis (more detail in the middle) that I don't like.  I was considering buying some gears and trying to retro fit it... but I might consider buying parts from you.

IE, I have the grips, buttons, triggers, pots... So I would want basically everything that you fabricated and anything that is specific (gears ect).

Let me know if you think it might work out at some point...  If these are items that you might consider.

[1UP]

Yes, I would like them to work on my panel, and I think all other interested parties would like them to work with their panels as well.  That's the whole point.

BTW, a normal bulky yoke will fit my cab, it's the weight I'm concerned with.  There's no reason these have to be a ton of bricks.

All I'm interested in is this: Do they work?  Do they last?  If the answer to these questions is "yes", then that's good enough for me.

[Gamecab]

Alright here are more Pics. I was going to post them last night but I had to hang out with my 2 year old.

Ok,  The First Pic is The GameCab Yoke next to a real SW Yoke.

Picture 2 is the back view of the Yoke.  This picture is important because it highlights the fact that the POT can be moved for larger or smaller gears. OR if anyone wanted to retrofit and Oscar encoder wheel and board that it really would not be too hard.
Keep in mind that the real parts are going to be laser cut and will be much better than what you see.

[Gamecab]

Xiaou2, this one (Picture 3) is for you  .  These are the Stops that prevent the Yoke from becoming a 360 degree wheel.

Picture 4 is what the internals look like.  Mark the date down, I am finally showing the internals of a GameCab Yoke.  Again, try and be nice, All I have was a Jig saw and Bending break that was not rated for 16 Gauge metal.

The Blue Circle is the Spring System, This works but will NOT be on the final model.

The Red Circle is the Stop system and it IS adjustable, unlike a SW Yoke. 

[Hoagie_one]

im stoked.  even your prototype is better than anything i can produce.

[GGKoul]

What is your estimated production date?  In the mean time I'll take that Star War Yoke off your hand? 

[Gamecab]

I'm pushing for sometime in early May.  I expect most of the laser cut parts to arrive in about 2 more weeks.  I have a possible gear vendor in mind who is shipping a whole bunch of different gears for me to try out.
I was thinking on selling the proto-type but I may want to mount that on the GameCab Driver Cab (Still unpainted and in the Garage).

Just hang tight for a little while longer.

[1UP]

Charlie,

What's the extra long x-axis bracket for?  Are you adding something that we can't see in the pics?

Looks good.  I'm looking forward to hearing about any performance tests you do.

[Xiaou2]

 Heya Charlie,

    Id be currious to know what your ideas on changes you have so far?

  Ok, heres what I have to say about the current pics...

    First off, a great job.   Most of the thing is really nice and well built.   Its the few radical changes that seem to cause problems tho.

    Im pretty sure that the small bolts that keep the thing from full rotation will snap off within a 2 month or so period of play.   They are a little too thin and since they are metal on metal... will pound each other to bits.   

  My suggestion is to use thicker bolts, and add a rubber bumper via a washer to keep it on.   The rubber will stop the metal bolts from deteriorating, absorb the high shock to the assembly (and the person : ))   

  The y stopper is also a bit too thin.   I believe it will end up bending within a short time.   I believe the original used a thicker harderend steel bar... which is much more durrable and bend resistent than those screw bolts.   The y dosnt usually take as much punishment, but still would be good to use a rubber stopper to avoid holes and dents in the assembly.

 It may be possible to use a hollow metal pipe as a sleeve arround the smaller bolts to give them added strength... but if not exactly snug, might end up failing anyway. 

 The spring is a dissapointment.   I was hoping to see the torsion (i think that the name) type.  As the ones you have on now will stretch
to become  unusable in short time, do not center as exacting, and can create a stretching noise.   I suppose these may do..  but hopefully at very least the rear will use the other spring type.

 I still do not understand how you can make the grips so close to the base backing.   By making the front larger like the orig... you get the needed distance to avoid any clearence troubles and provides stronger and easier mounting... at least.. thats how it appears.

  Anyway, I look forward to your ideas about the rest.

   

[Tailgunner]

    Im pretty sure that the small bolts that keep the thing from full rotation will snap off within a 2 month or so period of play.   They are a little too thin and since they are metal on metal... will pound each other to bits.

  My suggestion is to use thicker bolts, and add a rubber bumper via a washer to keep it on.   The rubber will stop the metal bolts from deteriorating, absorb the high shock to the assembly (and the person : ))

The bolts in an original are similarly sized. Agree that they need "padding" though. Short pieces of fuel hose would work, but ideally having nylon or delrin sleeves machined to fit would hold up the longest. Something else, adding self locking nuts to the back sides will keep the bolts tight so they don't start stretching out their mounting holes.   

The spring is a dissapointment.   I was hoping to see the torsion (i think that the name) type.  As the ones you have on now will stretch
to become  unusable in short time, do not center as exacting, and can create a stretching noise.   I suppose these may do..  but hopefully at very least the rear will use the other spring type.

Check the first post, he's got torsion springs on order.

I still do not understand how you can make the grips so close to the base backing.   By making the front larger like the orig... you get the needed distance to avoid any clearence troubles and provides stronger and easier mounting... at least.. thats how it appears.

Actually the grip axis stop system limits how far it can be from the back of the housing. To move it further forward, he'd need to add something for the bolts to hit to limit how far the grips can turn. Longer bolts won't help as the longer they are the more leverage you've got against them. More leverage = a higher chance of them bending or breaking.