4-8 way Joystick Suggestions

[Fusion Disaster]

Ok I've had my arcade for a while using two 8-way Happ Ultimate joysticks. I now want to expand my CP to a 4 player setup and as part of the expansion I want to put in two 4-8 way switchable joysticks. So I can play 4-way games properly and then switch them to 8-way for fighter games for the kids later on.

I know there are a lot of 4-8 way switchable joysticks out right now (happ, groovygamegear, ultimarc, etc.) but I'm not sure what the best option is. What are you all using, what do you like, what are the pros/cons?

Note: it's not a necessity to be switchable from the top, I can open up the CP and switch it from the bottom. I just don't want to have to disassemble the joystick to switch between modes. So as long as I just have to turn the restrictor plate, or flip a switch or something, that would be best.

Let me know what your thoughts are.

Thanks,

Brian.

[Hoagie_one]

I really like the t-stick plus, but it has an extremely short throw.  It's switchable from the handle too.  But i think im personally going to go with a 49-way and the GP 49 inteface for the multitudes of different stick options

[stevodevo]

I have the Ultimarc balltop J-Stiks...nice joysticks!  I really like them and have had no complaints from other users.  My buddy who is also building a cab will be using them too.  My CP is on hinges so I can lift it up and change from 8-4 way.

The 8-way play is great, no problems.  4-way is very good.  Not perfect but I think anyone here would tell you if you want the best 4-way experience, get a dedicated 4-way joystick!

But for switching, I like the J-stik and since I went with the IPac2 it made sense to order from the same place.

Stevodevo

[Fusion Disaster]

So your pretty happy with the J-stik? I thought that might be a good option as I would love to have a couple ball top joysticks, would stand out from the two bat joysticks (Blue & Yellow) that I currently have on my cabinet.

The J-Stik is easily switchable between 4 way & 8 way right? Just need to turn the restrictor plate?

When you say the 4-way mode isn't perfect, what do you mean? What kind of problems are you experiencing?

[SideShow Rob]

I'll second the opinion on the T-Stick plus 'sticks.

Excellent 8 way control, good-very good 4 way control.

Switching form the top was a priority for me...but even if it wasn't, I would still go for the T-Stick plus 'sticks.

They will feel vastly different to the 2 Happ Ultimate 'sticks you have on your cabinet now though...

[Shape D.]

I'd agree with the t-sticks as well. Its a nice function to switch it in less than a second from the top of the cp. plus if you get the longer handles the throw feels a little longer.

[daveg2000]

dumb question:

Why use 4-ways?

[paigeoliver]

dumb question:

Why use 4-ways? 

An 8 works just fine as a 4-way... doesnt it?

I've never had problems guiding my Pacman thru
the maze, or hopping my little froggies to thier
home....

What am I missing about these 4-way joys?
Why would someone want these?

(those external swicthes on the outside of the
4/8 way joysticks are pretty ugly too, arent they?)


...you know.. maybe I shouldnt have asked this, cause once
you tell me... I'm probably going to have to have them too!! haha

The only reason you aren't having any problems is because you have never used the correct sticks. Most people used to using the correct sticks CAN'T play the games using the wrong sticks.

Try playing Super Zola Pac-Gal with an 8-way, you'll come away crying!!

The 4-way games don't know what to do with the diagonal movements, this is more apparent in some games then others. Slow Pac-Man if you aren't a serious player will work with an 8-way, as for the high speed 4-way games, nope, nope, nope.

[RayB]

You just don't know what you're missing is all.

It's like people saying "why should my car be a stick-shift? Automatic is just fine. I don't see a problem". While anyone who has a car with balls wouldn't tolerate anything but a stick shift.

[daveg2000]

okay.. I'm not convinced.

I'll stick with the 8-ways.   

[sWampy]

I got a couple of grovygears omni-stick basics today, and after about 6 hours of straight playing, 4/8 way games, I like them better than any of the other 4/8 way sticks I've played with.   I've tried all the happs sticks and ultimarc sticks btw.  Only thing I don't like is they really need a mounting plate, or you end up with a pretty large hole in your control panel.

[Will]

Heh,try burgertime with an 8 way you will be crying after your first death.Damn evil condiments!!!!

[GGKoul]

T-Slik Plus

[Wyluli]

The OmniStick Prodigy looks kind of cool, a bit pricier though at $35. 
You can take a look at groovygamegear.com.  Switches from the top.  I have not used one tho, so can't help there, maybe someone who has one can pitch in?

[AndyWarne]

dumb question:

Why use 4-ways?

[RandyT]

To expand on this..
This subject used to come up regularly on this board, with talk of electronically limiting an 8-way to a 4-way etc. The final conclusion of these threads (if there is such a thing as a conclusion!) was that any stick which has a 360 degree movement, be it an 8-way, 49-way or whatever, can never be a 4-way.

Things change, even though you do not wish them to.  If you stopped your comments at electronic restriction of an 8-way stick, I would fully agree.  But your tossing in of the 49-way to the mix (for reasons that are all too obvious) is dead wrong.  Not only is electronic restriction possible on a 49-way, but I have done it and it works well.

The reason is that on a 4-way if you push right, for example, then push in a generally upward direction, the stick will end up at 12 o'clock, where it should be, rather than 1:30'ish. The restrictor plate does this for you. That's the difference between playing Pacman and stirring porridge.

I guess you'll never know how good a control feels when it goes where you expect it to without bashing the shaft of a joystick into an immovable object.  Maybe you should open your mind a little, or stick to "stirring porridge."

RandyT

[Matt Berry]

For some games an 8-way joystick will work instead of using a 4-way. Just like a mouse will "work" for tempest and arkonoid, and either way you'll get what you consider a high score. Use the correct controls and your score will shoot through the roof. All said and done, when the action becomes fast paced, and you are trying to make it up the ladder before a barrel smashes you in the head. A "good" 4-way will make it while the 8-way will pause that small milli second and your brains are smashed out by a  barrel thrown by an oversized monkey who has stolen your girl. Nobody wants that. It's all about having the right controls for the game, and untill you do you'll never know what you are missing.

[TOK]

Just want a comment on the T-Stick + and "never used a 4 way thing".
I have a lot of people play my cab that haven't played arcade games in a while. When they try to use the T-Stick with 4 way games -in 4 way mode- they have problems. The sticks just have too weird of a feel for a novice. Everyone that has tried Donkey Kong can't get up the ladders smoothly, and they are also all over with Ms. Pac Man.

I like my T-Sticks for shooters, and I do OK at everything with them now that I'm acclimated, but I found myself wanting more of the standard feel sticks. I never even switch the T-Sticks to 4 way anymore because I don't find it to be that big of a deal.
Now that I've watched people try, I actually think it would be easier for a newbie to play a 4 way game with a traditional 8 way than a T-Stick in 4 way. I just ordered a couple of Happs Competition for the main cab, and I'm moving the T-Sticks over to a vertical bartop.

[Matt Berry]

I found I preferred the J-stick in 4-way over the T-stick in 4-way (the J-stick's light spring feels sloppy which sucks, needs to be upgraded).  Overall hands down the best 4-ways are wico's which easily stomps all of the competition. You'd have to try one that is in good shape to know what I'm talking about. If you haven't played a 4-way game with a 4-way wico, that is probably why you prefer 8-way joys, but once you experience the big league you won't want to go back to the minor's.

[RayB]

Randy I don't understand why you replied the way you did to Andy. He's 100% correct. (and he never claimed you COULDN'T electronically restrict joys--he said you could, but it just wouldn't feel right in most 4-way games).

[JODY]

I never got into the restrictor thing.

[RandyT]

Randy I don't understand why you replied the way you did to Andy. He's 100% correct. (and he never claimed you COULDN'T electronically restrict joys--he said you could, but it just wouldn't feel right in most 4-way games).

And that is where I 100% disagree.  What is important is that when you intend to move in a direction, that you actually go there.  That is the sole purpose of the physical restriction with a conventional 4 switch joystick, and with that technology, that's how it's done.  But another technology exists now that will accomplish the same thing and feel virtually identical, even without the mechanical limiters.  That doesn't make it any less of a "4-way" than any other technology.  If it works, it works...period.

As for why I responded in this manner, if you simply take a look at the post he responded to, electronic restriction was never even brought up by that poster.  But strangely, it was the focus of his reply.  Then there was the wildly incorrect lumping of 49-ways into the 8 way electronic restriction discussions (8-ways can never be electronically restricted, but it's apples and oranges to make that comparison)  And to state that using anything other than a mechanically restricted joystick is "stirring porridge" is utter rubbish.

But, If you would like to venture a guess as to why that was, I'd be happy to listen. 

RandyT





 

[Lilwolf]

actually he was responding to daves question on why not an 8way.

mame locks out diagonals already.  So doing it electronically doesn't do anything on an 8way since they are already ignored.  That is what he is talking about.  He also mentioned the 49 ways sure, but he was talking about what makes a 4way a 4way is the restrictor..  When you are up, you are up... no ands ifs or butts... and very obvious.

I personally would love to try your 49 way and see how good it is. 
When I only had 8ways, I would rather play pengo on my keyboard then on my arcade machine.  Really made that much difference.  This was before MAME automatically removed diagonals.. but I was do it by hand with the "up, not left, not right" trick.

The 49 ways have the ability to keep track of grandularity of the direction and do a better job of saying up without worrying about hitting that diagonal.  I'm guessing it will be MUCH better then an 8way... But it will still not have the same feel... Doesn't mean it wont be as good just different. 

Currently I believe Donkey Kong is the test.  If you can easily play donkey kong and make it up the ladder every time without fail (other then user error   ) then its a great solution.   But the motion from up to left on a true 4 way, you will feel a bump around the corners... Thats all.

[RandyT]

actually he was responding to daves question on why not an 8way.

And this relates to electronic restriction....how?

mame locks out diagonals already.  So doing it electronically doesn't do anything on an 8way since they are already ignored.  That is what he is talking about.

This is a given.  But it was answering a question  that wasn't asked....

He also mentioned the 49 ways sure, but he was talking about what makes a 4way a 4way is the restrictor..  When you are up, you are up... no ands ifs or butts... and very obvious.

Think about it this way:  With a mechanical restrictor, the stick is forced into a very narrow physical position that ensures contact with (hopefully) only one switch at a time.  Electronic restriction on a 49-way opens up that very narrow position to one that is not narrow at all, and taking into account the mechanical properties of the stick and it centering mechanism, allows you to get the benefits of a 4-way without bashing the stick into immovable objects.  If you are physically disabled with a muscle control disorder, I don't recommend this approach, but everyone else will be fine.

I personally would love to try your 49 way and see how good it is. 
When I only had 8ways, I would rather play pengo on my keyboard then on my arcade machine.  Really made that much difference.

Before the 49--way solution, I had the OMNI's on my panel.  They switch from 8 to 4 way with mechanical restriction and just about everyone who tries them loves the feel of the stick, including myself.  After replacing them with the 49-way, I see higher scores and more comfortable gameplay.  It also give a more authentic feel on a majority of the games due to the centering grommet and expanded throw.  So I'm not comparing them to something unrelated, I'm comparing them to the "old school alternative".

The 49 ways have the ability to keep track of grandularity of the direction and do a better job of saying up without worrying about hitting that diagonal.  I'm guessing it will be MUCH better then an 8way... But it will still not have the same feel... Doesn't mean it wont be as good just different. 

Well there's the rub.  The original poster thought  his 8-way was "just as good", and was told it wasn't and the 49-way was thrown in with it...

Currently I believe Donkey Kong is the test.  If you can easily play donkey kong and make it up the ladder every time without fail (other then user error   ) then its a great solution.   But the motion from up to left on a true 4 way, you will feel a bump around the corners... Thats all.

If this wasn't the case with that or any other 4-way game, do you honestly believe I would be making this much noise about it?

RandyT

[Lilwolf]

I took the electronic restriction based on a few people who asked for keyboard encoders to restrict diagonals.  I talked in length with Ron (MK64) about it in the past before mame added it.  We found the "up not left not right" solution and realized it wasn't useful in hardware.  I personally thought Andy was talking about that.

As for the physical restrictors.  I personally like the feel.  They dont' feel like an 8way.  I have a few Wicos and thought they where good until I tried the anniversary joystick and think their better.  But all in all.. I had an Ultimate for years before I bought a Super.  I was happy with the ultimates until then.... Now I don't have a single ultimate running.  You get used to a feel in a joystick...

I'm not saying that the 49way wont play 4ways well.  In fact I thought think it will do a great job.  I don't believe it will feel the same... but should take care of the 8way problems... but will still feel like an 8way... 

I think the happs will probalby be the ultimate all in one solution.  But even then... I think if I was going to have a dedicated 4way machine, I would personally like the aniversary because of the feel... but until I try your solution I may think different.

[RandyT]

I took the electronic restriction based on a few people who asked for keyboard encoders to restrict diagonals.  I talked in length with Ron (MK64) about it in the past before mame added it.  We found the "up not left not right" solution and realized it wasn't useful in hardware.  I personally thought Andy was talking about that.

That's fine, but that's not what was said.

In any case, the reason the "up not left not right" stuff can't work is, as you said, granularity, but also because it is an exclusionary approach.  That method basically deadens anything that isn't a perfect direction and essentially does more to worsen the problem that alleviate it.

The current method overcomes this with increased granularity and a method that is inclusionary, meaning that directions that are primarily in the desired directions are made pure instead of being merely discarded.

I'm not saying that the 49way wont play 4ways well.  In fact I thought think it will do a great job.  I don't believe it will feel the same... but should take care of the 8way problems... but will still feel like an 8way... 

If you are looking for the feel of mechanical restriction, I will agree.  But understand that that feel is a choice and not a necessity for excellent 4-way operation with a 49-way stick and the proper interface.  This is my point.

I think the happs will probalby be the ultimate all in one solution.  But even then... I think if I was going to have a dedicated 4way machine, I would personally like the aniversary because of the feel... but until I try your solution I may think different.

In all honesty, I have no argument here.  If one is building a dedicated 4-way machine, cost alone dictates that a good, dedicated 4-way is in order.  Plan to play one 8-way game on that same machine, and the equation changes dramatically.

RandyT

[Grasshopper]

There are a lot of opinions here being presented as facts.

IMHO both the mechanically switched 4/8 way sticks, and the 49 way sticks are compromises, and which approach you'll prefer is entirely subjective.

I like the T-Stik and the Suzo 500. But they both share the same problem which is that they have a slightly longer throw in 4 way mode. I find that both the T-Stik and the Suzo 500 feel a lot crisper in 8 way mode. However, they're still a good compromise if you don't want to use separate 4 way and 8 way sticks.

The 49 way sticks sound very promising but I'll reserve judgement on how they deal with the 4/8 way issue until I actually get one. However, for me software switching is a must. If I have to mess around pressing buttons, I'd rather use a mechanical switching mechanism.

[RandyT]

There are a lot of opinions here being presented as facts.

Please point them out.  Not much to go on with a statement like that.

If I have to mess around pressing buttons, I'd rather use a mechanical switching mechanism.

I'm failing to see the difference.

They both require you to perform an operation before using the stick, except the former can give you diagonals, true 49-way operation plus a couple of others that the latter cannot.  It's also a heck of a lot easier to make the change.  But again, no corners to bounce off, if that is your bag.

So, are you saying that you would rather have the corners than than have to push a couple of buttons?  Or that pushing two buttons together is more difficult than the current switching methods on other sticks?  I'm afraid I'm not following your logic.....

RandyT

[Tiger-Heli]

Let me throw some new ideas into the mix.

I've used the Prodigy Joysticks.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Got used to twirling the stick and not moving in the restrictive cross pattern.  Faster response time that way because don't have to move down to move across.

The shortest distance between two points is STILL a straight line, therefore the fastest response will be to follow that line.

You're not moving Down THEN Across, you are moving in a straight line diagonally Down AND Across at the same time.

The restrictor is diamond shaped.
This keeps you from going in a big arc, which is a longer distance to travel, and stays in the "bad" zone much longer.

[Tiger-Heli]

Got used to twirling the stick and not moving in the restrictive cross pattern.