Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[RetroJames]

Unreal -

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=up4ktd.2.4

Ultracade owner is actively having auctions removed from Ebay for IP infingement!

Edit by SirPoonga: Title change by request.

Re-Edit by 1hookedspacecadet: As the thread was started by me, I would prefer to keep the title as a general heading rather than a call to arms.  We do not know all of the relevant facts yet and I would rather see how this plays out before appearing to call for a boycott.  Thanks.

Discussion: Ultracade and the Mame Trademark

[quarterback]

I just read the info in the Software forum post and was about to come post something here.

This sounds crazy.

[RetroJames]

I just read the info in the Software forum post and was about to come post something here.

This sounds crazy.

[RetroJames]

 Word Mark MAME MULTIPLE ARCADE MACHINE EMULATOR
Goods and Services IC 009. US 021 023 026 036 038. G & S: Computer software that enables the emulation of multiple arcade games and their associated hardware, allowing them to run on a general purpose computer operating system
Mark Drawing Code (5) WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS IN STYLIZED FORM
Serial Number 76627578
Filing Date January 11, 2005
Current Filing Basis 1B
Original Filing Basis 1B
Owner (APPLICANT) Foley, David R. INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 1281 Wayne Avenue San Jose CALIFORNIA 95131
Attorney of Record Lee Hagelshaw
Type of Mark TRADEMARK
Register PRINCIPAL
Live/Dead Indicator LIVE

[quarterback]

Right, I went to the link, but he's listed as "Applicant" instead of "Registrant" (like other records there).

[quarterback]

Indeed.

[Paul Olson]

Someone needs to fight this...HARD!
I don't know if he can actually pull it off, though.

First of all, whoever designed the MAME logo needs to sue his --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- now!

I think most of the mamedevs reside in other countries (not sure), so I don't know how that would factor in.

Paul

[JODY]

Here's some law information:

[Paul Olson]

His trademark on ultracade started in 2002

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=up4ktd.4.1

Someone else filed for one a year before

http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/jumpto?f=doc&state=up4ktd.4.2

Paul

[JODY]

Someone on alt.mame.games said the trademark might go through because it hadn't been used in commerce.  I disagree with that.  Look at mameworld.com.  They sell advertising.  Parts are sold as Mame compatible.  It is used.

[Toonces]

Actually, it appears that he is try to trademark the MAME logo. The application is for the word MAME in stylized form. So I would assume that while anyone may file an opposition to the application that whoever created the logo should probably get involved. Of course, everyone should get involved but that may be his goal. Stir up publicity.

The English translation of the word "MAME" in the mark is "BEANS" in Japanese. (taken from an application for "I need my MAME!")

 

[RayB]

Still, kinda dumb for the MAME organization to not have registered...
They should be able to fight it, but the outcome would likely depend on the judge. I've heard of some judgements in cases like this being in the favor of the "little guy" when it can be proven there was prior use of the mark, but the win came with a warning to use the proper "TM" indication. You're supposed to "tell the world" what your unregistered trademarks are by using the TM symbol. This case is further complicated by the decentralized nature of the project.

As for the logo theft. That's just plain SLEAZY! We all know his name and address. We should start a letter-writing campaign.

[Toonces]

Another thought. Any companies that sell MAME compatible equipment that has been in business longer than Ultracade should be able to prove prior use in commerce. HanaHo or any other long standing companies that sell MAME related stuff.

[spystyle]

Perhapse if he trademarks the word MAME, by this time next year we'll all be playing MAMA on our cabs.

David Foley harassed me for using the word MAME in my Ebay auction title, he said it's lisenced, and he said I'm not allowed to give people links to ROM sites containing "illegal ROMs that he owns the copyrite to"

So I asked him what the penalty for downloading ROMs was and he said up to $150,000 per game, so I asked him if anyone had ever been convicted of downloading ROMs and he said no, only some for selling ROMs.

If you want to send him a nasty e-mail this is his address:
"David R. Foley" <david.foley@ultracade.com>

After many semi-threatening e-mails back and forth I sent him the following, to which he did not reply:
---------------------
I see,
And you are trying to trademark the MAME design and
word? Did you draw that graphic? Did you help the MAME
devs program the emulator by writing lines of tedious
code? No? You're just a businesman who loves money? I
see...

Good luck to you David Foley,
Craig
----------------------

He's an audacious snake!

Craig

[JODY]

Think I'll call my next cab the Ultracade II.


Of course I mean that in a sarcastic way.

[SirPoonga]

But it's a trademark, not a patent.  It can be proven that mame and that lgo have been around for years and that the ultacade dude didn;t create it. 

[Gunstar Hero]

Yeah. This ain't happening... it's just Mr. Ultracade thinking he had a GREAT idea.

The problem is going to be that the name and logo predate his claim by years...

...of course, that's if anyone tries to fight it.

[SirPoonga]

Then someone should contact the trademark organization to mention them to look at mame.net

[JODY]

Yeah. This ain't happening... it's just Mr. Ultracade thinking he had a GREAT idea.

The problem is going to be that the name and logo predate his claim by years...

...of course, that's if anyone tries to fight it.

Mr. Ultracade either fell and had a head injury and thinks he has a GREAT idea or the guy is a snake and other terms I can't use on here.

[JODY]

Then someone should contact the trademark organization to mention them to look at mame.net

Here:

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/matters/matters-9707.html

It is our duty as Americans to inform the government of known prior art.  I'm not going to hold back on that duty...

[Gunstar Hero]

The trademark office will look into the claim, and since if you look up MAME on the net you get eleventeenjillion matches they'll find that that logo is already way in use.

[RayB]

The trademark office will look into the claim, and since if you look up MAME on the net you get eleventeenjillion matches they'll find that that logo is already way in use.

That doesn't put me at ease considering how many ridiculous and "obvious" patents have been GRANTED in recent years.

[JODY]

Wasn't that the logo in the application from this page:

http://www.oscarcontrols.com/gallery01.htm

in which it is stated that

"THE ABOVE DOWNLOADABLE IMAGES ARE PROVIDED IN CONFIDENCE FOR THE LIMITED PURPOSE FOR PERSONAL PRINTING AND ARE NOT TO BE REPRODUCED NOR COPIED IN WHOLE OR IN PART NOR LOANED OR OTHERWISE COMMUNICATED TO ANY THIRD PARTY, NOR USED IN ANY MANNER WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT FROM OSCAR CONTROLS."

and that

"All images and contents are copyrighted and may not be copied or distributed in any way.
Custom graphics and custom MAME designs are copyrighted and may not be used on other web sites without prior written consent from Oscar Controls."

thus they broke a copyright.

[Witchboard]

That doesn't put me at ease considering how many ridiculous and "obvious" patents have been GRANTED in recent years.

Yeah, no kidding.  If he could manage to win it, he'll probably be looking to collect money from people who have used it in the past as some kind of retroactive licensing thing.

[SirPoonga]

The trademark office will look into the claim, and since if you look up MAME on the net you get eleventeenjillion matches they'll find that that logo is already way in use.

That doesn't put me at ease considering how many ridiculous and "obvious" patents have been GRANTED in recent years.

patents do not equal trademarks.  Stop thinking this is a patent issue.  Completely different laws!

[JODY]

I submitted my email to the trademark office.  Recommend you do the same.

[Paul Olson]

Found this on the trademark site

Do I have to be a U.S. citizen to apply?

No. However, if you do not reside in the United States, you may appoint a "domestic representative" as part of the application process (see below).

Nicola, or another mamedev could put in an application, that should at least force the trademark office to figure it out.

Looks like the filing fee is $75 for a small entity, or $300 regular.  There are a lot of different fees listed so I don't know if there would be extra costs involved.

Paul

[Patent Doc]

Never fear you guys this will get stomped at the USPTO.  So you know there are several things you can trademark:

including

A name (ex. xerox or in this case MAME)
A design (the NIKE swoosh or the stylistic way MAME is drawn)
there are many other ways to to claim things

but no matter what, this will get examined.  Yes, trade usage is important, but this isn't novel usage.  He won't get a R without examination.  He won't get a TM without lots of use that is associated with his product only.  If this gets through, we can force a re-exam.  Also, if his counsel is listed on the PTO sight, and they probably are, simply notifying the responsible attorney should bring this to a grinding hault.  An attorney MUST have a "good faith" belief that this is deserving a trademark or he is violating his ethical duty and can be disbarred for inequitable conduct.  To show inequitable conduct you must show intent and materiality, the more material, the less intent is needed.  See where I'm going with this. This is really material stuff (the existance of all this mame "art").  Also, by contacting the attorney he has been put on notice of art, even if he took Mr. Ultracade's word there wasn't anything out there, now he knows better and is duty bound to inform the patent office, or once again he can be disbarred.  Being disbarred is a great motvator and WILL get the attorney to tell the patent office what he knows.

As an aside, those who originated the name and any designs, please trademark this outside the US too.  A trademark in the US only works in the US, let's nip this in the bud.

I swear when I get time I'm gonna right a MAMErs guide to Patents, Trademark, and Copyrights.

Patent Doc

[RetroJames]

From the USPTO entry for Mr. Ultracade's filing;

Attorney of Record Lee Hagelshaw

I assume it is fairly easy to find his address as he should be a member of the Calif Bar.

EDIT AGAIN: There ya go: http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=99742

Contact Info
Address 350 Townsend St #406
San Francisco, CA 94107
Phone Number (415)615-9300
Fax Number (415)615-9301
lhagelshaw@aol.com

[ften]

He doesn't have a chance in hell to win, with all the references to MAME on the internet predating Ultracade. You know there have to be MAME users at the USPTO who are laughing at this guy right now.
Anyway I'd donate all i could spare to fight this, if push came to shove.

-FTen

[Patent Doc]

1hookedspacecadet

Can I assume "Patent Doc" is a lawyer?

Yeah, but I haven't done any trademark work.  Also exnay on the awyerlay.  Copyright issues with ROMS you know. Anyway, I do strictly patent work.  My firm has a few trademark people and what I know about trademarks is based on siminars and talking with those people.  That beign said all the stuff about the attorney's knowing stuff is universal to intellectual property.

Trademark stuff is dicey for me to do to much on because I don't want to be found practicing law in a state I'm not licensed in (BIG NO NO).  However, that won't stop me or anyone else from say....contacting an attorney...say Mr.  Hagleshaw or even an Examiner (we have a right to do this)

By the way, has the rain stopped in Fulton, Co.  It's still raining over here in Dunwoody.

By the way, nice digging on the trademark info and attorneys name.  I'm slammed until Tuesday morning, but I'll try to see what I can get access to on PAIR (patent office info system) and I'll post to MAME.net and here tomorrow. 

[RetroJames]

I am sure any info you can come up with would be great.

[Patent Doc]

On contacting the attorney, would it be helpful for him to recieve multiple emails / notifications regarding the MAME logo and name?

A FEW letters/e-mails would probably be helpful, but don't slam the attorney.  Heck, this guy probably has no clue.  It's not his fault, and we really don't want to piss him off without cause.

I will check with my trademark people and let you know the best option tomorrow (um..today...damn I got to get back to work).

later

[duffjr]

anyone mention that ultracade machines are ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- and have worthless games?  50 useless capcom games other than street fighter or megaman...plus you have to deposit a quarter before seeing the gamelist...

[Fat_Trucker]

I can understand people's concerns but surely since MAME in its wider form is almost exclusively supported by online communities the backlash to this sort of action (whether it is successful or not) would result in Ultracade going out of business?.

An alternative would be for Nicolas Salmoria to obtain the patent and TM for the MAME code and simply order Ultracade to cease using it in a commercial capacity, effectively burying his business. I know there would be no shortage of people willing to help him fund it, myself included.

Surely the word MAME is in the public domain after so many years of general use?. It would be like trying to TM the words United States.

I'm based in the UK and will be keeping a close eye on this one, if this moron decides to bring his ideas over the pond we will need to start beating some bushes over here.

[Paul Olson]

Here's a couple more he's tring for.

Multicade s/n    76629621
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76629621

Arcade Legends s/n 76611855
http://tarr.uspto.gov/servlet/tarr?regser=serial&entry=76611855

I changed the links to the status pages, hopefully these wont expire.  Serial numbers added in case they do (Thanks for letting me know they expired emdkay).  I found them searching for "Lee Hagelshaw" in the boolean search.

Paul

[emdkay]

I've also been contacted by this hack requesting that I pay royalties to use a trademark that isn't his, nor has it even been approved yet. 

[mdekkers]

I sent the following email to the trademark office, I suggest that people who care copy and paste, and do the same:

From:
To: TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov
CC: lhagelshaw@aol.com, david.foley@ultracade.com
Subject: Trademark Application 76627578

CC: Lee Hagelshaw, Attorney of Record, David Foley, Applicant

Dear sirs,

I write to you with respect to trademark application 76627578 - "MAME
MULTIPLE ARCADE EMULATOR".

I would like to draw your attention to the fact that I am longstanding
user of a product that goes by the same name, sporting the same logo. I
can, however, assure you that as far as I am aware, there is no
affiliation between the original authors of MAME, and the individual or
organisation attempting to trademark this name and logo.

You may wish to note that the marque in question appears to have been
designed by an unrelated individual, and appears to have been under
copyright since 2003. I refer you to
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/gallery01.htm
Please note the following limited usage statement on the quoted page:

"THE ABOVE DOWNLOADABLE IMAGES ARE PROVIDED IN CONFIDENCE FOR THE
LIMITED PURPOSE FOR PERSONAL PRINTING AND ARE NOT TO BE REPRODUCED NOR
COPIED IN WHOLE OR IN PART NOR LOANED OR OTHERWISE COMMUNICATED TO ANY
THIRD PARTY, NOR USED IN ANY MANNER WITHOUT PRIOR WRITTEN CONSENT FROM
OSCAR CONTROLS."

Clearly, the quoted marque application seems to violate these terms of
usage.

Furthermore, to the best of my knowledge, said logo has been in use, for
many years, in a commercial manner in many forms. First of all, I would
like to inform you that at http://www.mamemarquees.com/ the marque
itself is for sale in the form of stick-on marquees. mamemarquees.com is
one of many sites selling a similar service. Moreover, many sites, such
as http://www.mameworld.com rely in part on the MAME marque for
advertisement revenue. In other words, there is widespread - although
low-level - commercial use of the MAME marque, in logo as well as text
form.

In closing, I would like to inform you that MAME is a so-called "Open
Source" project, meaning that the project, the work performed by this
project, and any arts, intellectual properties, and other related
results of productive work has mainly been performed by individuals on a
volunteer basis. These people volunteer their time, skills, and
knowledge out of passion for what they do, and make their core work -
The MAME application suite - available free of charge, in source code
form, for all to use.

This is very similar to making the work available within the public
domain, but not exactly, since Open Source Software typically places
some obligations onto the user in terms of under what circumstances the
work may be re-distributed. This is to protect the work from being
"stolen". More information about open source software is available at
http://www.opensource.org/ The precise license terms of the MAME body of
work can be found here: http://www.mame.net/readme.html

I trust to have given you plenty of information to assist in your
handling of the stated application, and am sure that in the face of the
information provided to you by myself, and no doubt others, that the
said application will be duly rejected. Should you require any
adittional information or comments, please don't hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards,

[gprime]

He's replied to the whole situation in 2 letters:

http://www.ultracade.com/ (right on the front).

Although he's not doing it the right way, it looks like he's just trying to stamp out MAME piracy.

[mdekkers]

Well, I can't actually enter his site - either because his flash is kaput, or more likely because this is a frontpage slashdot story, so his server is likely to be big melting smoking pile of scrap iron by now - nevertheless, i think that given the threats of royalties or else... he is more likely to just want to make some money off this.