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Author Topic: usb or ps/2  (Read 2023 times)

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sodapopinski

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usb or ps/2
« on: February 15, 2005, 12:45:44 am »
i'm ordering my parts right now. So, what is better usb or ps/2 or who cares? I really cant see it being a huge difference, but what do i know? are there prefrences? why?

Kook

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2005, 01:59:58 am »
I use a PS2 JPAC to interface a cordless PS2 keyboard and mouse, two 8-way joysticks and 12 buttons to my mobo. I am very happy with this setup. For games that don't work well with the 8-way joysticks, I whip out Logitech Cordless Rumblepads (the receivers are connected directly to USB ports on the motherboard). Everything works great.

I chose a PS2 JPAC, PS2 keyboard, and mouse, just because I wasn't sure whether or not a USB keyboard and mouse would be as bulletproof (would they work under DOS? during CMOS setup? etc).

Hope that helps.

Kook

Tiger-Heli

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2005, 06:38:52 am »
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm - Search for "USB Vs. PS/2 Mode".

The general consensus AFAICT is PS/2 is better for keyboards and keyboard encoders, and USB is better for gaming controls.  But I'm not sure how noticeable the differences are, if at all.
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cholin

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2005, 07:37:49 am »
I dont use one yet, but Ive done my share of work and I plan on using PS/2.  I have a wireless keyboard hooked up to it and it runs like a charm, why, because theyre made for keyboards.  If you have a keyboard encoder, you will have your keyboard attached to that, so just let the computer count it as a whole keyboard.  Thats my opinion though, I guess it goes down to preference.  Are you going to have any other controllers hooked up?  What operating system?  Any future plans to use USB or PS2 for another project, maybe to power something?

tetsujin

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2005, 11:26:02 am »
http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm - Search for "USB Vs. PS/2 Mode".

Fascinating.  Personally I think Randy's got it right.

In particular, I think the USB keyboard protocol is a poor choice for gaming.  Consider low-speed USB HID devices.  They can be guaranteed a polling rate of 10ms, at which point they can send 8 bytes to the host.  A USB keyboard can maybe send 8 state changes during that time.  A USB gamepad, on the other hand, can send the status of 64 digital controls.

Compared to PS/2, low-speed USB HID has poorer latency but better bandwidth for game controls, with PS/2 taking around 500-1000 state changes per second, and USB HID low-speed averaging (over one second) 6400 state changes per second maximum bandwidth.  The difference in latency, however, is not insignificant.  When a state changes on a keyboard encoder (assuming the bus isn't saturated with traffic, which it almost certainly never will be) it could have its update onto the host's keyboard buffer within a couple milliseconds.  If you press three buttons at once, one of the buttons will have to wait around 3ms to get its state to the host - chances are, though, even if you are hitting buttons "at the same time" there's that much difference in between when the switches actually close anyway.  Being polled at 10ms, low-speed USB will have to wait an average of 5ms, and possibly as much as 10ms to update.

If you assume your game polls the inputs every 17ms or so, and assume no more than three controls will be activated "at once" (maybe with an actual difference of 5ms from the first press to the last), there's maybe a 25% chance the game won't see those inputs as simultaneous.  With USB's latency, for those presses to be seen as simultaneous, they all have to reach the host within the 17ms polling.  If they all arrive on the same USB packet, (about a 50% chance, I figure) they will.  If not, then there's only about a 60% chance that two consecutive USB packets will arrive in the same game frame, so the overall odds that the game will not see those inputs as simultaneous is around 20%.  The odds that the low-speed USB latency for a single button press will cause it to be delivered one game-frame late is around 60%, where for PS/2 keyboard it's much lower, around 4% if the bus isn't saturated.  But would you even notice if your game inputs were reflected one frame late?  It's tough to say.  Maybe.

Full-speed is another matter.  Full-speed HID devices can deliver more data per interrupt, and they can be guaranteed a higher polling rate.  I think a full-speed USB Gamepad with a polling rate of 5ms or lower would be better than the PS/2 keyboard interface for gaming overall.  The latency would be close enough to PS/2 that the odds for synchronization with the game's polling would be a lot more favorable. 

I'm not sure how USB 2.0 hubs would factor into this.  They're made to translate low- and full-speed devices to high-speed transmission, but the buffering involved introduces some amount of extra latency.  I'm not sure how much, but on a game-cab system that'll have just a few low- and full-speed devices and nothing on the USB bus that'll take significant bus bandwidth, I think there can be no justification for that added latency, regardless of how small it might be.

Personally I'd go with USB Gamepad interfaces just out of principle.  :)  I feel it's better for game controls to have their own "channel" independent of the keyboard.  But PS/2 would be a solid performer if you get a good encoder.  I wouldn't at all recommend using a USB keyboard interface, though.  A full-speed one might be OK, if your OS has good, fast USB keyboard support.  (Don't use it for DOS!)  But it's just not an efficient way to connect game controls IMO.

But then again, I'm not the one with the hands-on experience building and testing these encoders.
---GEC

sodapopinski

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2005, 04:52:12 pm »
the reason i asked this question is that I noticed the ipac with usb was $4 dollars more and I wondered if this was beacause usb was mabey superior.

tetsujin

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2005, 05:02:52 pm »
the reason i asked this question is that I noticed the ipac with usb was $4 dollars more and I wondered if this was beacause usb was maybe superior.

I'd say USB keyboard encoding is just a bad choice for game controls...  but your mileage may vary.  If there's an extra cost it's probably because it's an additional feature.

There are some reasons people might choose to use USB keyboard encoders: ability to combine devices using hubs, or just a lack of old-style keyboard ports on their system.  I don't think it's a good idea, though.  If you go USB, get a gamepad encoder.
---GEC

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2005, 05:30:09 pm »
I think ps/2 gives you peace of mind. It's tried and tested technology and will work with almost any PC.

But I love the principles behind USB - hot plug/unplug, thin cables, foolproof plugs and sockets, 127 devices per port etc. But the implementation is still generally flaky. I place most of the blame for this on Micro$oft. They've supposedly supported USB since Windows 95 but even with their vast resources they still haven't got it right. For example my computer often freezes when I attempt to download pictures from my USB camera. Infuriating. However, when USB works it's great.

Why not hedge your bets and buy an Ipac board? They support USB and ps/2 (except the  VE model) and are worth the extra money IMHO.

When I bought my Ipac I expected to only use ps/2. But whenever I launch MAME from Windows I now always use USB. It's just so convenient plugging my control panel into one of the USB ports on the front of my case instead of trying to find the ps/2 socket on the back.
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cholin

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2005, 07:08:50 pm »
First, I think he is buying an iPac, correct?
Second, to Grasshopper, why dont you leave it always plugged in and use a serial connector at one end as a swappable control panel bit.

Tiger-Heli

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2005, 12:39:06 pm »
the reason i asked this question is that I noticed the ipac with usb was $4 dollars more and I wondered if this was beacause usb was mabey superior.
Nope, it's $4 dollars more becuase of the additional cable. 

Now, having said that, and in spite of what's been mentioned, if you are getting an I-PAC, I would spend the extra $4 and use the encoder in PS/2 but have the cable so USB  was available if I needed it.
It's not what you take when you leave this world behind you, it's what you leave behind you when you go. - R. Travis.
When all is said and done, generally much more is SAID than DONE.

sodapopinski

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2005, 02:26:49 pm »
Oh, well that clarifys things. I though it was one or the other. I think I can spend the extra $4 to have the option.

Grasshopper

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2005, 03:38:09 pm »
First, I think he is buying an iPac, correct?
Second, to Grasshopper, why dont you leave it always plugged in and use a serial connector at one end as a swappable control panel bit.

That's pretty close to the way I have it set up except I used Centronics connectors instead of serial.  I'll post pics one of these days.
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slycrel

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Re: usb or ps/2
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2005, 04:51:16 pm »

  I have an iPac and I use it in USB mode -- primarily because my MAME machine's PS/2 keyboard port is flakey and can stop working mid use.  I've swapped back and forth many times and have noticed no difference in performance.  I'm running win98 though, which may have something to do with that as well.