Encoders

[cholin]

I plan on getting a iPac2 encoder for all my wiring...blah blah blah, not important.  Down to the subject:

Ive been looking at a KeyWiz encoder from GroovyGameGear.  I wanted to know which one you guys would recommend, especially if you've tried both.  Which has more features, which is easier to program, more cost-efficient, etc.  As much information as you can give me is well appreciated.

[JODY]

What features do you want?  E.g. lights, number of buttons, etc.  Each has some unique features.

[cholin]

Forgot Umm I want two joysticks ( plus a total of 15-18 buttons hooked up.  This will consist of:

1 Player Start
2 Player Start
1 Player ABCDEF
2 Player ABCDEF
1 Spare (used for shift feature in iPac)

Speaking of which, how easy is the KeyWiz to program...  Anyway, lighting will be handled seperately, so it will have nothing to do with the encoders.

[NoOne=NBA=]

To run down the most glaring differences between the two:

1) KeyWiz is PS/2 only.
I-pac is PS/2 or USB.

2) KeyWiz has a few more inputs.

3) Shift functions on the I-pac are handled by Shift+Button presses.
KeyWiz can be wired so that buttons will do Shazaam+Button, if you use Randy's diode connectors (or make your own).

4) I-pac holds the programming in the chip at shutdown.
KeyWiz programs the chip each time at startup.

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That said, BOTH function well, and you probably wouldn't ever tell the difference between them--except in extreme applications.

BOTH are well supported by their makers.

BOTH are durable, and reliable.

[cholin]

Well Im only going to use PS/2 to connect, considering I want it to operate as a keyboard (for personal reasons, dont ask why).  About the inputs, I dont need any more, although they would be nice to have.  I like the programmer on the iPac and Im not sure about the way the KeyWiz operates like that.  In the end, due to my situation, which would you guys recommend?  Also note that money IS a factor.

[Hoagie_one]

keywiz eco2 is darn cheap

[NoOne=NBA=]

You don't NEED USB, so that would recommend either.
You don't NEED the extra inputs, so that would also recommend either.
The programming itself isn't DIFFICULT on either, so again it's a draw.

Which leaves MONEY as the deciding factor.

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Are you planning to order any other parts from Ultimarc?
If so, go with the I-pac.
The shipping from Ultimarc is steep to start with, as it's coming from the UK, but doesn't go up THAT much before it caps.
The more you order, the better shipping becomes.

The shipping on the KeyWiz is better to start with; and, if you are planning to order more stuff from THEM, it gets even better too because you wouldn't have to pay shipping from two different sources.

Truthfully though, get the one that looks to be the best choice economically for you, and you'll be perfectly happy with it.
BOTH products are GREAT, and both COMPANIES are SUPERB.

[cholin]

OK well I was going to buy two T-stik Pluses from Ultimarc anyway, and because of the costs I figured I might as well get the buttons there too, sure why not.  So Im guessing I should go with the iPac?  Also, I live in Canada so shipping may be different.  My overall order from Ultimarc will come out of my account at around $185 CAD.

[NoOne=NBA=]

As long as you are ordering other stuff from Ultimarc, going with an I-pac makes sense.
Just make sure he doesn't have anything else you MAY want in the near future BEFORE you order.

You were talking about the "it's only $30 more" issue.
The other side of that is "I could have gotten THAT too, for only $30--if I had ordered it THEN".
You don't want to decide a month from now that you'd like a (insert name of item you forgot here) too.

[cholin]

I thought about this ALOT.  Im still shopping around because of this.  I do not want to end up like the people who buy 3 of something, say they werent pleased, and buy 4 of another kind.  Im researching things fully before buying it.  I went through every part in the inventory list of Ultimarc to find that out.  One dispute though, is that apparently through StarBurstCoin, you can order Happ Pushbuttons for $2 CAD, and since they're located in Canada, it would save me shipping, but Id be ordering from two locations, in which the shipping may cost more in the end anyway.  Anyone know how much shipping is from StarBurst?

[NoOne=NBA=]

No, but that's EXACTLY the way you want to be thinking.
Get a list of everything you KNOW you need, try to get suggestions for stuff you DIDN'T know you need, and then see what the best way to order everything will be.

It was actually cheaper for me to order my leafswitch buttons from Bob Roberts, and the holders/switches from another company, than to order everything from Bob Roberts.

Alot of people don't factor shipping into their purchases, which can be very costly.
It may be cheaper to pay more up front, and save on shipping, in many cases

[cholin]

I strongly agree in this matter.  I have a list compiled in Word that's around 2 pages long with Manufacturers and prices, including shipping and handling converted into CAD funds.  Trust me, Ive been planning ahead.  You guys are all geniouses though, so I get suggestions from people who've done it before

[Tiger-Heli]

Lots of info on both products here:

http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm

To me, the shift functionality is a big difference, but it doesn't sound like you'll be using that.

As you mention, the other big difference is programming.

If you're only using MAME with the default outputs, you can pretty easily skip this on either encoder.

Otherwise, I also have a lot of comments on the software on the page above.

[cholin]

Actually, I do plan on using the SHIFT button or else I will need an extra 5 buttons   Also impressed with the MACROS in the iPac.  I do plan on using it for MAME only pretty much but my guidelines are:

1) CHEAP
2) EXPANDABLE
3) RELIABLE

[Tiger-Heli]

>Actually, I do plan on using the SHIFT button or else I will need an extra 5 buttons >

Okay, they work a little differently but nothing that would make a whole lot of difference to you, from the sounds of it.  Biggest difference - The I-PAC has a button which ALSO acts as the shift function.  The KeyWiz has a totally separate button for accessing the shift function (less chance of accidental activation, one additional button on your panel), although you CAN wire the KeyWiz shift function to work SIMILAR to the I-PAC.

>Also impressed with the MACROS in the iPac.

Cool feature, Gets ZERO usage in MAME.  Biggest usage for it is Emulators that want Alt-F4 to exit (but there are alternative or hacked version of most of these anyway).  Also, note that you are limited to 4 macros per codeset, so this can't be used for PC games with 20 some Alt and 20 some Ctrl combinations - (not that you'd have that many buttons anyway).

>I do plan on using it for MAME only pretty much but my guidelines are:
>1) CHEAP

Hard to beat the GGG Eco2.

>2) EXPANDABLE

Neither one really from a hardware standpoint.  Pretty much a draw here.

>3) RELIABLE

Pretty much a draw here as well.  I've seen more problem posts with the I-PAC, but it's also been around a lot longer and has a larger user base, so that needs to be factored in.

[cholin]

Okay, they work a little differently but nothing that would make a whole lot of difference to you, from the sounds of it.  Biggest difference - The I-PAC has a button which ALSO acts as the shift function.  The KeyWiz has a totally separate button for accessing the shift function (less chance of accidental activation, one additional button on your panel), although you CAN wire the KeyWiz shift function to work SIMILAR to the I-PAC.

Well you can use the iPac's additional buttons (such as 7 and for each player to act as a shift button also, with some programming, which should be simple because I've already set up all the keys.

Cool feature, Gets ZERO usage in MAME.  Biggest usage for it is Emulators that want Alt-F4 to exit (but there are alternative or hacked version of most of these anyway).  Also, note that you are limited to 4 macros per codeset, so this can't be used for PC games with 20 some Alt and 20 some Ctrl combinations - (not that you'd have that many buttons anyway).

I realize it gets ZERO usage in MAME, but its more or less for control.  I want to macro certain buttons to bring up like CTRL+ALT+DEL to show processor usage for example.  I want another one to display the temperatures on a small bar in the top of the screen.  It's more of a personal TESTING idea to make sure the cab is safe.

As for expandable and reliable, I go by how many people say good things and how many people say negative things about products.  As for the GGG Eco 2, I'll need to look into that because of shipping and other factors.

[Tiger-Heli]

Well you can use the iPac's additional buttons (such as 7 and for each player to act as a shift button also, with some programming, which should be simple because I've already set up all the keys.

I see what you mean, but it's not a shift function in that case.  (The I-PAC/2 can only have one dedicated shift function.)

I realize it gets ZERO usage in MAME, but its more or less for control.  I want to macro certain buttons to bring up like CTRL+ALT+DEL to show processor usage for example.  I want another one to display the temperatures on a small bar in the top of the screen.  It's more of a personal TESTING idea to make sure the cab is safe.

I wouldn't base my encoder decision solely on this, then.  If it's only for occasional TESTING, buy or borrow a USB or wireless keyboard until you are sure it is working properly, then just remove the keyboard.

As for expandable and reliable, I go by how many people say good things and how many people say negative things about products.

Something to keep in mind -

When you see a negative post about the I-PAC, note how many times a replacement board fixes the problem.  Great customer service, but it says that it wasn't a PC or software or user config error and makes you wonder about quality control.

When you see a negative post about the KeyWiz, (I've only seen one where it wouldn't work from a hardware standpoint, with a very old mobo), consider whether the person making the post could have solved the problem with a little more patience or understanding of functionality or software.

[IMMark]

To run down the most glaring differences between the two:

1) KeyWiz is PS/2 only.
I-pac is PS/2 or USB.

2) KeyWiz has a few more inputs.

3) Shift functions on the I-pac are handled by Shift+Button presses.
KeyWiz can be wired so that buttons will do Shazaam+Button, if you use Randy's diode connectors (or make your own).

4) I-pac holds the programming in the chip at shutdown.
KeyWiz programs the chip each time at startup.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

That said, BOTH function well, and you probably wouldn't ever tell the difference between them--except in extreme applications.

BOTH are well supported by their makers.

BOTH are durable, and reliable.

It was already mentioned, but I think this is an important factor, you said that you are going to do some programing....the Ipac holds the information after shut down...I don't think this is true for the Keywiz (I say I think, because I have never used one, but I am sure that if I am mistaken, I will be corrected shortly

[NoOne=NBA=]

Look in the quote above your last post. 

I'd already mentioned that the KeyWiz programs the chip each time, at startup.

[Tiger-Heli]

It was already mentioned, but I think this is an important factor, you said that you are going to do some programing....the Ipac holds the information after shut down...I don't think this is true for the Keywiz (I say I think, because I have never used one, but I am sure that if I am mistaken, I will be corrected shortly

It's a consideration, but not really an important factor.  The I-PAC will retain the last programmed codeset until it is programmed again.  The KeyWiz will start with a very good default codeset for MAME, but can be programmed to use an alternate set-up at boot-up or at program launch.

The only time this give a real advantage to the I-PAC would be if for example you were primarily using the device with PC games that can re-assign keys (or can't program the modifier (shift, Alt, etc.) keys AND you were wanting the device hot-swappable, like on a desktop controller.

Otherwise, either one works well and is very programmable.

[cholin]

Okay well Im going with the iPac then for these reasons:

Its affordable, although not the cheapest
Heard alot of good things and Andy is supposed to have good support
Has enough inputs
Will use Player 1 - button 7 as a Shift key
USB or PS/2 Interface available.

[IMMark]

Look in the quote above your last post.

I'd already mentioned that the KeyWiz programs the chip each time, at startup.

Yes, in my quote I stated that it has already been mentioned; it being Ipac holding programing after shut down. 
I was simply stating that I find that to be an advantage in the Ipac, and would give the nod to Ipac for that reason.  Also as I said, I have never used the KeyWiz, but my understanding is you would have to reprogram changes after a shutdown?  If that is the case for a non-default Mame setup, I would not justify the price difference.

[RandyT]

Look in the quote above your last post.

I'd already mentioned that the KeyWiz programs the chip each time, at startup.

Yes, in my quote I stated that it has already been mentioned; it being Ipac holding programing after shut down. 
I was simply stating that I find that to be an advantage in the Ipac, and would give the nod to Ipac for that reason.  Also as I said, I have never used the KeyWiz, but my understanding is you would have to reprogram changes after a shutdown?  If that is the case for a non-default Mame setup, I would not justify the price difference.

I think I need to clear this one up a bit.  Those who haven't used a KeyWiz before might not be aware of this one.

Under Windows, the KeyWiz has a software "Virtual EEPROM" mode.  If you set your system up to take advantage of this, the last codeset you uploaded is automatically uploaded to the KeyWiz when you boot your computer.  No manual intervention is required.

RandyT

[cholin]

I already got that.  I would consider one, but it seems unwise considerring Im already buying from Ultimarc.

[Tiger-Heli]

Cholin,

I'm not trying to sway your decision.  I think you'll be happy with either product and either one will work well, but the reasons you are giving are different from the initial considerations above.

>Its affordable, although not the cheapest

Fair enough.

>Heard alot of good things and Andy is supposed to have good support

I've heard good things about both products and both products have excellent support.

>Has enough inputs

You can never have enough inputs in this hobby, but I won't go there.

>Will use Player 1 - button 7 as a Shift key

Not sure what you mean by this.  If you mean you really want a P1B7 on your panel that you will use for some games and it can also activate shift functions, then I agree the I-PAC is a better choice.  (You could rig a KeyWiz to work this way, but it's a lot more complicated).  If you just mean that you won't be using P1B7 on your panel, so that input will be available as a shift button, then either encoder will work equally well, you would just use the Shazaaam! input on the KeyWiz, as it's designed.  (No macros, though).

>USB or PS/2 Interface available.

True, but you said earlier you wanted the encoder to use PS/2.

[Tiger-Heli]

Look in the quote above your last post.

I'd already mentioned that the KeyWiz programs the chip each time, at startup.

Yes, in my quote I stated that it has already been mentioned; it being Ipac holding programing after shut down. 
I was simply stating that I find that to be an advantage in the Ipac, and would give the nod to Ipac for that reason.  Also as I said, I have never used the KeyWiz, but my understanding is you would have to reprogram changes after a shutdown?  If that is the case for a non-default Mame setup, I would not justify the price difference.

I think I need to clear this one up a bit.  Those who haven't used a KeyWiz before might not be aware of this one.
Under Windows, the KeyWiz has a software "Virtual EEPROM" mode.  If you set your system up to take advantage of this, the last codeset you uploaded is automatically uploaded to the KeyWiz when you boot your computer.  No manual intervention is required.
RandyT

And just to chime in again, I only see two situations where this might create a problem:

1)  You routinely use an application that can't use the default codeset (to the point that you prefer to have the custom codeset loaded)  AND you are using the KeyWiz in a desktop controller that is not always connected AND you don't want to remember to plug in the controller BEFORE launching a batchfile that programs the KeyWiz prior to launching your application.

2)  Grasshopper mentioned that he had some Dreamcast adapter that needed a custom codeset loaded, and since it was independent of the PC, the encoder needed to be programmed on the computer and retain it's settings when unplugged.

Other than these two situations, it's not really a big deal.