Stunt Cycle CPU - emulation?

[unclet]

If someone wanetd to emulate this game, would this CPU be of any use or would you require the actual circuitry schematics instead?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=6152036006&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

Man, I wished someone took the time to do this ..... I am not electrically inclined ...

[D_Zoot]

If I recall,  Stunt Cycle didn't have a central processor and doesn't have game roms.   It was all done with discrete logic (pretty clever actually).

Without roms, and hence no game code, the game can't be emulated in mame.

Somebody could write a program that simulated all the discrete logic operation of the gameboard.  It would actually be a gameboard simulation instead of an emulation.   Such a simulation wouldn't be very efficient use of code, and it would probably be easier just to write a program that looks like Stunt Cycle.

Actually, somebody started doing this awhile ago, but I don't think the project was ever finished and the web site is gone now, so I don't know what happened to the project.


Regards,
D

[Tiger-Heli]

D. Zoot beat me to this, and his info is correct.

See this page -
http://www.mameworld.net/discrete/Atari/Atari2.htm#stuntcycle

Stunt Cycle is discrete logistics, so it will never be in MAME.

This page http://www.mameworld.net/discrete/ mentions a simulator for it, but it hasn't been updated since 2000 and the link is now dead, googling didn't turn up anything either.

According to this:
http://www.atariage.com/software_page.html?SoftwareLabelID=807

There was a version for the Atari 2600, so with the right rom and Z26, you could play it.  Not sure how authentic that would be, but it's something.

[unclet]

Yeah, I knew about Stunt Cycle being circuitry only (ie: no Rom).  Guess I meant "simulated" instead of "emulated".

It would be good if someone simulated the game based on the board logic.....  I loved that game as a kid. 

PS:  The atari version is no where near as nice to play as the original.

[Tiger-Heli]

Only thing I can suggest is:

http://www.vidsonix.com/monaco/monaco.htm

Phil Stroffolino did the simulation for Monaco GP before it was taken out of MAME.  You could contact him, although I think he's working on a lot of current MAME projects.

[btoddkelley]

This maybe more of a queston for mame dev but I will ask anyway! Mame now has simulated analog circuits for sound rather than sample for some games. Coudn't a game like stuntcycle (or pong) be simulated within mame as long as each circuit was simulated? I am sure this would be quite a task (san you imagine the number of gates in monaco GP??!!) but I would think it would fit within the spirit of mame.


Todd

[Kremmit]

This maybe more of a queston for mame dev but I will ask anyway! Mame now has simulated analog circuits for sound rather than sample for some games. Coudn't a game like stuntcycle (or pong) be simulated within mame as long as each circuit was simulated? I am sure this would be quite a task (san you imagine the number of gates in monaco GP??!!) but I would think it would fit within the spirit of mame.


Todd

It could be done; it used to be done.  MAME used to emulate some of the discreet logic games, but have decided that's outside the scope of the MAME project, and removed those games.  Somebody other than MAME will have to tackle games that used discreet logic.

[old school gamer]

unclet,you can check out the real thing tommorow, when you come to pick up FREE space encounters. But make sure to bring your quarters,because it still takes coins 2 play. OSG

[Tiger-Heli]

This maybe more of a queston for mame dev but I will ask anyway! Mame now has simulated analog circuits for sound rather than sample for some games. Coudn't a game like stuntcycle (or pong) be simulated within mame as long as each circuit was simulated? I am sure this would be quite a task (san you imagine the number of gates in monaco GP??!!) but I would think it would fit within the spirit of mame.


Todd

It could be done; it used to be done.  MAME used to emulate some of the discreet logic games, but have decided that's outside the scope of the MAME project, and removed those games.  Somebody other than MAME will have to tackle games that used discreet logic.

Not necessarily -  I think what Btoddkelley is suggesting would indeed be possible, but it would basically be Nicola's call whether it's acceptable or not.

BTW, BTodd, this is one of the questions that you COULD ask on the MAME serious board without getting flamed - although I would expect someone to post "send us the driver, and we'll let you know".

Kremmit - I could be wrong, but the only discreet logic games I EVER remember being in MAME were Pong and Monaco GP.  Monaco was clearly a simulation - They did not emulate all the flip-flops and nand gates on the original board.  Not sure about Pong.

There is also a theory that Atari was upset about Pong being included in MAME and the dev's took it out to placate them.  Monaco was just a victim so the dev's could use the "simulation" argument, rather than saying "To keep Atari happy, we're removing Pong."

I suppose whether they ever can be added back depends on which of the above arguments is closer to the truth.

[Kremmit]

Kremmit - I could be wrong, but the only discreet logic games I EVER remember being in MAME were Pong and Monaco GP.  Monaco was clearly a simulation - They did not emulate all the flip-flops and nand gates on the original board.  Not sure about Pong.

There is also a theory that Atari was upset about Pong being included in MAME and the dev's took it out to placate them.  Monaco was just a victim so the dev's could use the "simulation" argument, rather than saying "To keep Atari happy, we're removing Pong."

I suppose whether they ever can be added back depends on which of the above arguments is closer to the truth.

Pong and GP could well be the only ones; I've never researched that.  I thought I read somewhere that they had decided not to do games that were straight logic, but I'd never heard the "keep Atari happy" story before- interesting. 

However, the way I see it, if they had only pulled them because "They did not emulate all the flip-flops and nand gates on the original board.", then I would think it would have made more sense to just emulate the missing circuits, or mark the games as not-working, or working with problems, instead of pulling them entirely.  So it seems likely that they are not planning on doing logic simulations/emulations any more, regardless of whether that's their own decision about what MAME does and does not do, or just due to Atari's complaint.

Bummer for us.

[Tiger-Heli]

Pong and GP could well be the only ones; I've never researched that.

Actually, they removed a bunch of gambling games (Champion Skill, Pontoon, and Golden Star) at the same time, presumably b/c they were games of chance and not games of skill.

Here's the official quotes courtesy of the PatchMAME site:

Pong & Monaco:

Why was this game removed from MAME ?

Quote from Nicola Salmoria:

" Pong, which at this point was too much of a simulation and too little of an emulation. It didn't really fit into MAME's architecture which is CPU-based and targeted at accurately reproducing the gameplay of the original."

This game doesn't require ROMs.

Why was MONACO GP removed from MAME ?

Same reason as above. Simulation of electrical circuits is not really emulation.

Why these games were removed...

"Some time ago I (Nicola) mistakenly removed Lotto Fun because I thought it was a gambling machine. After some more careful evaluation, it is evident that this is a game of skill, therefore it is now supported again. This was my mistake and I apologize for that.

As a reminder, the exclusion of gambling machines is purely technical, not moral or legal. Gambling machines are not video games, and just like MAME doesn't support mechanical pinballs (but it supports software pinballs), it also doesn't support gambling machines (but it supports games with a gambling theme). Both mechanical pinballs and gambling machines can be found in the same places where video games are; this doesn't make them all the same thing. The distinction between gambling machines and video games is not arbitrary: gambling machines usually require more money to play than a video game (e.g. 10 tokens to start), and they have settings that allow the operator to decide how much of the money that comes in should come out. No amount of skill can improve a player's chances of winning: this is entirely predetermined by the machine."

***

I think they might not allow redemption games b/c of the same logic.  Wish they'd come up with something similar for the mahjong and pron games, but I digress . . .

   
I thought I read somewhere that they had decided not to do games that were straight logic,

Well, the Monaco GP explanation above kinda implies that, but I'm not sure if that was official or added by patchmame, the official story was that it was simulation.

but I'd never heard the "keep Atari happy" story before- interesting. 

I don't know that I have OFFICIALLY.  But then again, no one ever says "This is why we're claiming that we're doing this, and this is the real reason we're doing it."

However, the way I see it, if they had only pulled them because "They did not emulate all the flip-flops and nand gates on the original board.", then I would think it would have made more sense to just emulate the missing circuits, or mark the games as not-working, or working with problems, instead of pulling them entirely.

You're missing the point, it's a totally different approach.  There's probably thousands of transistor circuits to emulate to have it work properly, it would be tough to do and get right.   OTOH, If I want to say "The road runs here, so I need these pixels gray, then a pink car runs along it, and orange cars come by at this speed, that's a lot easier.

Poor example - Say I want to build a card reader to read the magnetic strip off of your credit card and I have your card number.  It's much easier to build a machine that sends 5417 XXXX YYYYY 8072 when ANY card is passed through than it is to make the machine read the actual card and get the number.  If your card is the only one to be read, the machine works fine.

So it seems likely that they are not planning on doing logic simulations/emulations any more, regardless of whether that's their own decision about what MAME does and does not do, or just due to Atari's complaint.

Again, I wouldn't say this for sure, and if they don't want to do it in MAME, they could do it in MESS (some of the same devs work on both).  But I don't know for sure what their feelings are.

[Dav]

Pong was a simulation, it was shown to be inacurate with no hope of salvaging it.   The discrete logic games will be emulated in mame eventually.   They have a clock just like cpu games and bits that are 0 or 1,  the only problem is speed.  I did a test emulator of kee's tank and with just a couple of circuits it turned into a very slow slide show. IIrc all I was showing was the minefield.  Something most people don't think about is the resolution.  It's double the size of a standard res monitor, so 4X the pixels.  And for every pixel you have to calculate every circuit.  5 years down the road it may not be  that big a deal.

[Kremmit]

However, the way I see it, if they had only pulled them because "They did not emulate all the flip-flops and nand gates on the original board.", then I would think it would have made more sense to just emulate the missing circuits, or mark the games as not-working, or working with problems, instead of pulling them entirely.

You're missing the point, it's a totally different approach.  There's probably thousands of transistor circuits to emulate to have it work properly, it would be tough to do and get right.   OTOH, If I want to say "The road runs here, so I need these pixels gray, then a pink car runs along it, and orange cars come by at this speed, that's a lot easier.

Poor example - Say I want to build a card reader to read the magnetic strip off of your credit card and I have your card number.  It's much easier to build a machine that sends 5417 XXXX YYYYY 8072 when ANY card is passed through than it is to make the machine read the actual card and get the number.  If your card is the only one to be read, the machine works fine.

Aha, I gotcha- the game wasn't just incompletely emulated and patched to work- it was closer to being a look-alike that they had coded in.  Not exactly, I understand, but that was the arguement for removal  instead of just fixed/finished/marked not-working.

[DreamWeb]

Mmm.!  Good times!  I programmed a "Stunt Cycle" game in Basic back on my Pc Jr.  Actually, I didn't PROGRAM it..  I typed the code in from a magazine that I had borrowed from the library!

If I remember correctly.. it didn't completely work right!  Haha.

d.

[TheGatesofBill]

Actually, somebody started doing this awhile ago, but I don't think the project was ever finished and the web site is gone now, so I don't know what happened to the project.

Yay Internet Archive! http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Bridge/2886/ (pick a date)

[RayB]

Mmm.!