BAD-ASS trackball...

[Knievel]

Just came across this on eBay..



http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13718&item=6148060091

[M3talhead]

That would be perfect for an idea I had about mounting an optical mouse underneath a CP, upsidedown so the laser points up, and then using a trackball like the one listed mounted in a similar fashion. That would make for a super cheap setup. All you'd have to do is invert the mouse controls in windows and thats it. No additional hardware. What your computer sees really is the mouse.

I came up with this idea after thinking how I could modift an optical mouse to work with trackball games. Since trackballs today still use the same principles as mouses, only bigger, I thought, why hasnt anyone designed a trackball with colored, swirled, dotted, or textured image trackballs that would not spin rollers, but rather, trick the mouse into thinking that the ball was actually a "surface" it was moving over.

I should patent that,

[brandon]

thought you guys might find this interesting if you havent seen it.. havent researched it much or read all the detail but apparently it works pretty well... these guys use it for FPS games but its interesting and it should work with Mame pretty well..

http://www.clana3d.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=53

http://www.clana3d.com/html/mods/PXLmod_logitech/PXLmod_logitech1.htm

http://derfaust.myftp.org/XLmod.htm

Actually.. I just noticed a custom USB interface PCB that he uses for connecting all the pots and switches.. hmm that might be cool for some Maming as well... I wonder if theres guys are familiar with BYOAC?

[SOAPboy]

thought you guys might find this interesting if you havent seen it.. havent researched it much or read all the detail but apparently it works pretty well... these guys use it for FPS games but its interesting and it should work with Mame pretty well..

http://www.clana3d.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=53

http://www.clana3d.com/html/mods/PXLmod_logitech/PXLmod_logitech1.htm

http://derfaust.myftp.org/XLmod.htm

Actually.. I just noticed a custom USB interface PCB that he uses for connecting all the pots and switches.. hmm that might be cool for some Maming as well... I wonder if theres guys are familiar with BYOAC?

[NoOne=NBA=]

why hasnt anyone designed a trackball... that would not spin rollers, but rather, trick the mouse into thinking that the ball was actually a "surface" it was moving over.

I should patent that,

Think about what you just asked.
If the trackball DIDN'T spin the rollers, it wouldn't MOVE.
If the trackball doesn't move, and the optical sensors don't move,  what DOES move.

If you're going to have to have the ball move anyway, why go to the expense and frailty of an optical setup, when you can just put an encoder on the end of the shaft that's already moving anyway.

[RetroJames]

why hasnt anyone designed a trackball... that would not spin rollers, but rather, trick the mouse into thinking that the ball was actually a "surface" it was moving over.

I should patent that,

Think about what you just asked.
If the trackball DIDN'T spin the rollers, it wouldn't MOVE.
If the trackball doesn't move, and the optical sensors don't move,

[ericball]

I came up with this idea after thinking how I could modift an optical mouse to work with trackball games. Since trackballs today still use the same principles as mouses, only bigger, I thought, why hasnt anyone designed a trackball with colored, swirled, dotted, or textured image trackballs that would not spin rollers, but rather, trick the mouse into thinking that the ball was actually a "surface" it was moving over.

I should patent that,

Sorry, you are a few years too late.  Check out the early Logitec TrackMan.  They used a "marble" with a special semi-random dot pattern which was then easily picked up and tracked by the optical sensors & processor.  These days the optical mice have a lot more processing power and better sensors so they don't need much texture or pattern to work.

[u_rebelscum]

I should patent that,

You'll have to go against Microsoft and Logitech .

(Notice how their balls are all dotted all over.)

[M3talhead]

DAMN YOU BILLY GATES! 

[NoOne=NBA=]

I think he means the rollers will not be used to transmit the movements

If the rollers are still there, and the rollers are still turning, what's the point of using optics to transmit the data, rather than using an encoder wheel on the end of the roller?
The rollers will still gunk up, they will still wear out, so there is NO advantage to this system.

The only reason optical mice are replacing ball mice is that there are no moving parts inside to gunk up, or wear out.
Well that, and I think there's a group of people that just like their mouse to glow (which CAN be done with a ball mouse, if you feed an LED off the USB port)

[quarterback]

what's the point of using optics to transmit the data, rather than using an encoder wheel on the end of the roller?

I think the point was to have an easy, cheap 'hack' to attach a trackball to a Mame machine.  Take a cheap optical mouse, get any kind of old trackball (with or without any other sort of controller interface) hook them together and you're in business.

[brandon]

actually I think the optical setup would be superior to rollers with encoder wheel for a few reasons.  trackballs  slip on the rollers instead of turning sometimes but movement would still be registered because the optic would see the ball move.  Also to my knowledge they dont have the problem with strobing as badly but I cant say with certainty.

[brandon]

http://www.clana3d.com/sections.php?op=viewarticle&artid=53

http://www.clana3d.com/html/mods/PXLmod_logitech/PXLmod_logitech1.htm

http://derfaust.myftp.org/XLmod.htm

any FPS player that uses that, does and will get owned constantly.. that thing is a JOKE for fps gaming..

but yeah, for a mame machine, could work out "well"

I havent tried one but I dont think it would be that different than a mouse keyboard setup except that you would have analog movements instead of digital and having to press "walk" run" or SSprint" buttons which is a pain.

[Will]

Soap just to let you know you are sort of right and sort of wrong.The panther xl may suck in most peoples hands but there is exceptions to the rule .I for instance suck hard with that ugly thing but there is a guy in my old quake clan that absolutely owned all with that thing.He won two huge quake2 tournaments with close to 500 competitors in back to back years.These were not <auto-censored> tourneys and were run by Gamespy and yes there were many great mouse and keyboard players and they all got owned by this guy.He now plays with a mouse and keyboard because there are no working drivers for newer fps with the panther.On a side not before he got his panther xl he played fps with a flight stick for movement and a logitech trackball for aiming

[u_rebelscum]

actually I think the optical setup would be superior to rollers with encoder wheel for a few reasons.  trackballs  slip on the rollers instead of turning sometimes but movement would still be registered because the optic would see the ball move.  Also to my knowledge they dont have the problem with strobing as badly but I cant say with certainty.

You're making one assumption: an optical "skip" is not as bad as a mechnical-opto skip.  That the optical will be able to compare frames and correctly see what direction was moved.  Opticals can and do "skip" when they see wrong.

Even on the MS and logitech optical TBs, with (patented even) dotted balls, can miss a super fast spin.  I have yet to see an optical able to correctly see me super spin it's ball (haven't tested the new kensington optical expect mouse TB, though).  And on my new (but cheap) optical mouse at work the cursor can "walk" or "zoom" at the wierdest times; using it as the "base" optical on a hacked TB would have problem, I think.

Mechanical-Optos have problems, but so do Opticals.  I think it's still case by case instances on which is better, depending on which sensor, ball, roller, encoder wheel, movement calculation software, or other hardware is going to be used.

[RayB]

I have to agree with that Rebel Scum guy... I would NEVER go back to a ball-wheel mouse for use in every day Windows computing, Photoshopping, etc, etc. My optical mouse is so much better and maintenance free.

BUT...

I have recently gotten back into First-Person online shooters (Half-Life 2 death match in this case) and I really notice problems sometimes when I want to turn very very fast. The mouse seems to get confused sometimes.

[armax]

The problem might be that you are slightly lifting the mouse on turns (it's a problem a friend of mine has on FPS games).

[RayB]

Actually even in Windows, if I move the mouse left-right real fast, the mouse cursor goes nuts (kinda does a circle and then zooms to a corner of the screen).

[Trimoor]

Are you using it on a reflective surface?  Even varnished wood can really screw up the sensor.

[RayB]

Mousepad.

It's a microsoft Intellieye 1.0.  Maybe that's the problem. It was their first optical mouse.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Are you using it on a reflective surface?  Even varnished wood can really screw up the sensor.

Also, most of the manuals I've seen recommend a solid color mouse pad, as opposed to one with a picture on it.
Apparently the picture can mess with the optics, and cause motion like you described.
I've got a really old Microsoft Explorer 1.1, on a black mouse pad, and don't EVER have any problems with it.

[RayB]

Weird. I always though it NEEDED a picture or texture so it "sees a difference".

[Trimoor]

Actually, most manuals reccomend testing it on a plain sheet of paper if you have problems.  Even that has enough contrast.
It's old, and mice are cheap, so you might want to just buy a new one. (<--Sorry for that capitalist way of thinking.)

[gudis]

One of these laser mice might do the trick...
http://www.bigbruin.com/reviews05/logitechmx1000/
They're supposed to be much more accurate and less sensitive about surface than LED optical units.
Unfortunately, they're cordless and pretty expensive.

[RandyT]

http://www.clana3d.com/html/mods/PXLmod_logitech/PXLmod_logitech1.htm

any FPS player that uses that, does and will get owned constantly.. that thing is a JOKE for fps gaming..

but yeah, for a mame machine, could work out "well"

Heh,  the PantherXL was awesome!  It had a bad habit of always blowing the optical sensors in one direction or another.  I have two of them with the same affliction.

I used to play FPS games with it all the time and always came in at the top 3 (even won once in a while).  So that tells me that I must have done better with it than more than a few KB/mouse players.

But they stopped making them and driver support was vile, so I replaced it with a Betson trackball and an MS Sidewinder FF2.

You don't think I designed those replacement Betson encoder wheels just for use with old arcade games do you?

RandyT

[brandon]

Heh,

[NoOne=NBA=]

I tried it, and ended up just using my mouse/keyboard on the "desktop" CP I had built.
It was a 16x24 table that fit into my cabinet in place of the controllers, so that I could use the computer for work.

Two things to consider are that you won't have your mouse buttons/scroll wheel available, and that you are going to have to pack alot more buttons under your other hand, including fire buttons, etc...

If you're going to use the trackball left handed, I'd recommend using the 10-key area for your movement keys.
That's what I've done for years now, and it works great.
The keys are all in nice straight rows and columns there.

[RandyT]

not to get too off topic...

but Im seriously thinking about doing that very thing as well so I have play FPS and arcade games with the same trackball.. Im left handed and this would probably work out best for me anyways..  Randy, what kind of trackball are you using 2 1/4", 3"  is it like the Golden Tee ones?  my only concern is that with the weight of the ball you couldnt have fine control like a smaller PC trackball.. just wondered what your experience was...

Sorry, I don't mean to take over the thread, but I couldn't watch the PXL get maligned like that

I use the 3" one.  It's definitely a little different, but the larger size coupled with a high-res encoder and most importantly a circuit  that can handle the speed of the transitions (and the Betson can) makes for a setup that can deliver some really fine control. 

The mouse sensitivity settings are important too.  My method of setup is to place a finger on one edge of the TB and roll it, without lifting my finger,  until it hits the other side.  It should be adjusted so that this range of motion causes the player to do 1 full 360 degree rotation.  After that, it just takes some minor getting used to.

I have tried the whole mouse and KB thing and it's just not the same.  Somehow, using a trackball to be able to look around freely in a virtual environment just seems more "natural"  to me.   To each their own I guess.

RandyT

[NoOne=NBA=]

My issue wasn't with the looking around aspects, but rather with the "where'd my FIVE buttons and two scroll directions go?" problem.

I've got a 14X18 mousepad, so looking around hasn't ever really been an issue for me, but having to move SEVEN functions from my left hand, to my right, was VERY disorienting, to say the least.

I know several people using various forms of trackballs effectively in FPS games.
I just happen to be one of those who found it less than perfect for MY playing style.


I agree with Randy that it's "not the same" as a dedicated CP, and have started the design phase on several game-specific CP's (the most recent being a CarBall CP for Unreal Tournament 2k4).
The problem I have ALWAYS run into, and the one that kept me from proceeding to the production phase, is that FPS games just require too many buttons to be hit simultaneously, or in quick order, to make a dedicated CP functional for me.
I just don't have THAT much dexterity in one hand.

Using the mouse, I can bind keys directly to it, so that I can "key-chord".
For those unfamiliar with the term, it is using both hands simultaneously to press keys, much like playing a chord on a piano.

[brandon]

this one might work pretty well. I thought about getting it since its "lefty friendly" for us weirdos