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Author Topic: d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?  (Read 8116 times)

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Xiaou2

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #40 on: October 13, 2002, 07:18:05 pm »
I do have an Sony 21" TV with only RCA Video in and the GeForce has both RCA and S-Video, so I'd like to know if it will have any difference if I plug the GeForce's RCA out to the TV's in, or if I'll have better quality if use the S-Video out from the card and put a S-Video to RCA adaptor to hook it on the TV.

 I dont think anyone would have a definite answer on this unless they had tried both ways as well... but basically, it 'should' be the same.

  Maybe if the conversion is done closer to the tv though... that signal loss would be less, as opposed to the already degraded rca composite signal traveling further down the wire - degrading even more.

  Basically though,  rca (composite)  is always going to look pretty awefull, because the color/detail information is reduced.   If you can, hold out for an svideo tv, as the prices are falling on them big time. (probably due to hdtv's)


Howard_Casto

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2002, 09:27:23 pm »
Actually unless you are using fancy filtering options and scan lines with your video card it almost has to look worse.  Now the 3d elements might look better but not the 2d as the sprites are made for a smaller pixel area. (Screen filters are bad, umk)

But it's not anything to argue over.  :)

"has to?",  "might look better?"  With all your speculation you might just have an argument.  But wait, lets look at some facts...

Do me a favor and load up Project 64.  Load up the Diddy Kong Racing or the Hydro Thunder ROM.  Configure the graphics plug-in for 1600x1200 resolution, 32 bit color depth, Triple Buffer display mode, Direct 3D HAL.

Oh wait, you do that on a d9200 or any arcade monitor out there.

No need to argue about it. :)


Wtf are you talking about man? Console games are meant to be on a tv not an arcade monitor.  I have no clue how an arcade monitor can be used as a rebuttal regarding this argument.  And actually it's an almost undisputed fact, but I've been accused of wording things to0 harsh. :)  I guess you can't please anyone around here.

And I have seen the n64 emulators on various displays (pc, arcade monitor, ect) with various resolutions and the only way it looks authentic is on a tv. Gee that's probably because the n64 only outputted to a tv. ;P

For the record I'm very anti emulation when it comes to newer consoles which you can still buy the games, and affordibly at that.  (In other words you have no excuse, go buy the real game and quit ripping the company off.)  But that's another issue entirely.  Kind of like why you would want to run a system that has long playing games that are controlled by an analog stick, standing up, on your arcade machine, instead of sitting down on the couch in front of the boob tube, with a very nice analog n64 controller, like normal.  

Oh and further down the thread......

It rarely happens but I completely agree with Xiaou2. :)

You see the hybrid monitors are superior, but unfortunately that is also the problem.  We want to make the display look crappy, else we would all use pc monitors.  A tv gives you the most authentic display for your money and it's also the easiest to work with.

It's not as sharp a picture by any means, but it looks so much closer to an arcade monitor, which also isn't a very sharp display.  As I said, game designers use the display type to their advantage, and  a perfect example fo this is the spyhunter test.  It just looks pixelated and junky on a hybrid or pc but it's passable on a arcade monitor or tv.  

Some things you just can't emulate, and the display it's outputted on is one of them unfortunately.  :(  Filters help, but if it's the wrong dot pitch and pixel shape then they won't do a whole lot of good.  This goes for console games, pc games and arcade games respectively.  

SNAAAKE

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #42 on: October 14, 2002, 12:00:04 am »
Howard,
Why dont you stick with the legendary TV of yours and never post on this topic again ;)?

Its getting sorta annoying already :-\.

rampy

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #43 on: October 14, 2002, 10:19:45 am »
Howard,
Why dont you stick with the legendary TV of yours and never post on this topic again ;)?

Its getting sorta annoying already :-\.

Oy vey... I bet it's gonna get warm in here real soon...

From what I can tell it's largely a matter of semantics, and subjectivity/preference...

A n64/console etc will look more authentic on a TV-esque display, however the pictures might look "better"/cooler (subjective) HLE'd with a fancier vid card and higher resolution...

authentic != better
authentic == authentic

It's also a matter of degrees of taste/tolerance (again subjective)... Howard (from what I can tell - my opinion/observation)  seems to be very picky/more discerning (that sounds harsher than I mean to... it's for lack of a better word ATM ) about how something looks visually.  What I think looks good enough for me to enjoy "classic" games, is definitelly not good enough for howard's taste...  (as an example...)

*shrug* YMMV

Rampy

Dave Dribin

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #44 on: October 14, 2002, 01:21:23 pm »
FWIW, I have a U3100 and it looks absolutely awesome.  This is running MAME, Atari 2600, NES, SNES, and Genesis.  To be honest, most MAME games look identical to their original as far as I can remember, especially if you rotate the horizontal games so they take up the entire screen.  Ms. Pac-Man rotated on a U3100 is perfect.  I'd highly recommed a U3100 over a PC monitor.  And compared to an arcade monitor, no fuss.. just plug it in.  It can only do res up to 800x600.  I couldn't get it stable on 1024x768.  Now even though it can do these high resolutions, it has a very coarse dot pitch.  I think the course dot pitch is the key to getting that authentic look.   The U3100 has the same dot pitch (.71mm) as the non-VGA Wells-Gardner arcade monitors, which is why I think the U3100 looks so good.  The only drawback to the U3100 is the max size is only 19".  Well, and price.  When I bought my U3100 it was still cheaper than a 19" PC monitor, but not these days.  It's money well spent, though.

Haven't tried Daphne or Project64.  I imagine these might not be as good since you may actually want a higher resolution and finer dot pitch.  Can the D200 run at higher resolutions than 800x600?

-Dave

Howard_Casto

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2002, 02:40:05 pm »


Oy vey... I bet it's gonna get warm in here real soon...

From what I can tell it's largely a matter of semantics, and subjectivity/preference...

A n64/console etc will look more authentic on a TV-esque display, however the pictures might look "better"/cooler (subjective) HLE'd with a fancier vid card and higher resolution...

authentic != better
authentic == authentic

It's also a matter of degrees of taste/tolerance (again subjective)... Howard (from what I can tell - my opinion/observation)  seems to be very picky/more discerning (that sounds harsher than I mean to... it's for lack of a better word ATM ) about how something looks visually.  What I think looks good enough for me to enjoy "classic" games, is definitelly not good enough for howard's taste...  (as an example...)

*shrug* YMMV

Rampy

I agree completely.  And that was the point of this entire discussion.  If you look at the orignal post the topic was what would give a more authentic display not what looks "better" (which is subjective and silly to agrue over.)  Without a doubt console games look the most authentic on a tv as this is what they ran on.  Also arcade games look the most authentic on an arcade montior and are almost as authentic on a tv as they use practically the same crt tube, just different methods of input.  

What you guys think looks "better" is irrelevant to what looks the most authentic.  One is opinion, the other is fact based on the physical limitations of the medium.  The closer the dot pitch and pixel "shape" to the orignal display the more authentic it will look.  This makes perfect and logical sense to me, so I have no clue why people are trying to argue this.  

For arcade games.....

arcade monitor=perfect
tv=less than perfect
pc/hybrid=the least perfect

for consoles....
tv=perfect
arcade monitor=less than perfect (due to resolution limitations, not the display)  
pc/hybrid=the least perfect


Now guys this has nothing to do with what you think looks the "best" but what is going to look the most like the orignal hardware the games ran on.  Perfect !=best... prefect==most authentic display.

How in the world can you argue otherwise?


Oh and Snaake your famous :D

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame46.html


rampy

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OT: the flamewarriors site
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2002, 02:47:05 pm »
Quote


Oh and Snaake your famous :D

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame46.html




Howard.. I hadn't seen the flame warriors site before... that's totally classic.  thanks for posting it =)

rampy

Howard_Casto

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2002, 02:49:51 pm »
I thought some might get a kick out of that.  Not to be holier than thou I'm in there too, but you'll have to figure out which one(s).  :D

To quote the human torch...
"Flame On!!"

Dave Dribin

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2002, 03:02:44 pm »
For arcade games.....

arcade monitor=perfect
tv=less than perfect
pc/hybrid=the least perfect

for consoles....
tv=perfect
arcade monitor=less than perfect (due to resolution limitations, not the display)  
pc/hybrid=the least perfect

I would agree, except I wouldn't lump PC and hybrid together, esp. if you consider U3100 a hybrid.  In fact, I would say the U3100 does not fall under the hybrid distinction at all, but arcade monitor.  AFAIK, the U3100 is basically an arcade monitor with a VGA interface, rather than a mountable PC monitor.  As I mentioned the dot pitch for the U3100 is .71 mm whereas a typical PC monitor's is .25.  They're not even in the same ballpark.

No idea where a D200 falls in place, but I suspect that it is closer to a mountable PC monitor after checking out Oscar's pics.  Just looked up the specs for the D200, one thing cool is that the monitor controls are on an I2C bus.  This means you could write some software to control the monitor over the serial or parallel port or something.  Pretty wacky.  You could write something that lets you control the display from the control panel joysticks and buttons.

-Dave

Howard_Casto

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2002, 09:21:58 pm »
Yeah I'll agree with that too.  I was speaking in general.  I'm definatley not arrogant enough to think I know the exact output of every single monitor out there either. ;)  Like some of the plasma screens, although technically a tv, have a horrible picture in terms of authenticity due to the extreme clarity and different display type.  

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2002, 01:23:38 pm »
I thought some might get a kick out of that.  Not to be holier than thou I'm in there too, but you'll have to figure out which one(s).  :D

To quote the human torch...
"Flame On!!"

Heh! Funny site!  I tried looking for your personality, but didn't see "arrogant bastard" listed!  ;D  I jest, I jest!

For the sake of fun, I also couldn't find mine own "maximus pecker head" listed.  ;D


Howard_Casto

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2002, 07:56:20 pm »
:)

Try philosopher or maximus something or other.


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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #52 on: October 16, 2002, 06:11:11 am »
Man, it's been a looong time since I looked at the back of my monitor, but I am positive that I do have RGB inputs, and may have s-video (not 100% sure on the s-video).  Is there any way to utilize the RGB inputs w/ a pc, and would there be any advantage?  Clearly I wouldn't want a SHARPER image, but would i get a brighter, more colorful image?

here in europe most tv's have an rgb scart input...you can directly connect the r,g,b of your vga output to it. It will not be sharper in the sense of more blocky but it certainly is better then s-video when it comes to color bleeding. For all things and purposes it looks exactly like an arcade monitor at least in the case of the arcade monitor and tv I saw running beside each other a while back.

Peter

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #53 on: October 16, 2002, 11:23:06 pm »
Peter's right.... the only picture degredation worth mentioning when you go with svideo is the fact that all three colors are combined.  

When you use scart it has the luma, like svid, but also splits the colors, eliminating the color "dullness" and color bleeding associated with svideo out.  It makes a near perfect picture in terms of authenticity.

I dare you to find anything better, save a real arcade montior. ;)

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2002, 01:22:51 am »
Peter's right.... the only picture degredation worth mentioning when you go with svideo is the fact that all three colors are combined.  

When you use scart it has the luma, like svid, but also splits the colors, eliminating the color "dullness" and color bleeding associated with svideo out.  It makes a near perfect picture in terms of authenticity.

I dare you to find anything better, save a real arcade montior. ;)

And I still found enough personal reasons to go with a pc monitor ;)
just to make sure hehe: better as in more accurate = rgb tv, better for )p(= pc monitor  ;D

Peter




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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2002, 02:04:50 am »
Peter,

For the record, what is your preferred video setup, including monitor model, video card, software setup, special settings or configurations, etc.??

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2002, 02:29:25 am »
Peter,

For the record, what is your preferred video setup, including monitor model, video card, software setup, special settings or configurations, etc.??

I think my setup is a bit weird for most taste. After using advance mame for a long time using lots of custom modes I switched to regular mame's win 32 build with my fe as a frontend. I use a vertical mounted iiyama 19 inch vision master pro (those diamondtrons) with a geforce 2mx 64 mb soon to be repllaced by a geforce 4 ti 4200.

My setup is pretty simple...I use fixed 640x480 resolution modes with exact double refresh rates...ie stuff like 114hz , 120 hz etc. using hardware stretch to fill the screen...beneath the bezel glass it gives a nice smooth image for most games.
For horizontal games to make them a bit bigger but at the same time to not distort the image to much I use 15|horizontal|-screen_aspect 4:4| so all horizontal games get a aspect rastio of 4:4.
For vector games I use 1024x768 with a beam of I believe 2 to make the lines a bit thicker.

As you can see I am not after an authentic look but a look that looks best to me. And it does look better for me then on a real  arcade monitor... The only thing I want is another cab for horizontal games because the 4:4 aspect ration is of course a compromise...


Peter
« Last Edit: October 17, 2002, 09:10:13 am by )p( »

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2002, 03:17:17 am »
Cool... so if I hooked up my R, G, and B up to three individual inputs, I should expect more vivid and brighter colors, compared to the standard VGA monitor cable?

This is a PC monitor, btw, not a tv, that has these inputs.

If this is the case, I'm quite interested in hooking it up in this manner.  Does this require a custom video card, or a mod to my videocard? An additional part? Surely it needs something. :)

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2002, 04:24:23 am »
There are monitors that take RGB input, Which is called BNC on these monitors.

Here'e an example.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/crt_p220f.htm#specs

Note, I didn't read completely what you are trying to do yet.   If oyu are hooking up a PCB or such that monitor won't do since it does 30Khz.

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2002, 08:24:51 am »
Quote
[quote author=)p( link=board=1;threadid=2960;start=40#17822

here in europe most tv's have an rgb scart input...you can directly connect the r,g,b of your vga output to it. It will not be sharper in the sense of more blocky but it certainly is better then s-video when it comes to color bleeding. For all things and purposes it looks exactly like an arcade monitor at least in the case of the arcade monitor and tv I saw running beside each other a while back.

Peter

What else do you have to do to get a PC to output to a TV via scart??  It can't be THAT easy or surely everyone would be doing it...

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2002, 09:09:28 am »
Quote
[quote author=)p( link=board=1;threadid=2960;start=40#17822

here in europe most tv's have an rgb scart input...you can directly connect the r,g,b of your vga output to it. It will not be sharper in the sense of more blocky but it certainly is better then s-video when it comes to color bleeding. For all things and purposes it looks exactly like an arcade monitor at least in the case of the arcade monitor and tv I saw running beside each other a while back.

Peter

What else do you have to do to get a PC to output to a TV via scart??  It can't be THAT easy or surely everyone would be doing it...

you will have to use advance mame or something similar to output at the correct tv frequency...

Peter

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #61 on: October 17, 2002, 02:18:40 pm »
Cool... so if I hooked up my R, G, and B up to three individual inputs, I should expect more vivid and brighter colors, compared to the standard VGA monitor cable?

This is a PC monitor, btw, not a tv, that has these inputs.

If this is the case, I'm quite interested in hooking it up in this manner.  Does this require a custom video card, or a mod to my videocard? An additional part? Surely it needs something. :)

No, no, no! :)

Svga/vga is the best output period in terms of vivid colors and brightness.  Read the thread... this is about arcade authenticity.  There isn't a way you can get a "authentic" display using a pc monitor period.  Even if you hook up via the rgb the pixels on your monitor are still "square"  and thus the picture will look blocky.  All you would manage to do would be to make a crappier display, and not in the good "more authentic" way.    

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #62 on: October 17, 2002, 05:32:44 pm »
Even if you hook up via the rgb the pixels on your monitor are still "square"  and thus the picture will look blocky.  All you would manage to do would be to make a crappier display, and not in the good "more authentic" way.    
The dot pitch of desktop monitors are way way smaller than the dot pitch of an arcade tube.  Thus running a computer monitor at a very high resolution you could put several of those little "square"  pixels into an antialiased "round" dot about the size of one arcade monitor pixel.  This is what people are doing with Advance mame to get the authentic look.  Now to you and me Howard, of course this isn't really "authentic" since it not a real arcade monitor, but you will be hard pressed to visually notice much of a difference.

I only noticed a difference between upgraded monitors when I saw one hooked up to an original robotron cabinet (yuck!)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2002, 05:41:31 pm by Dave_K. »

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Re:d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?
« Reply #63 on: October 17, 2002, 07:48:10 pm »
Quote
There are monitors that take RGB input, Which is called BNC on these monitors.

Sir Poonga, thanks for the info on what these connectors are called.  I did a search on the web and found out that regardless if there is a benefit to connecting the monitor via BNC, I don't feel like going through the frustration of building/buying a circuit on the hunch i may get a brighter display. :)

Quote
Read the thread... this is about arcade authenticity.  There isn't a way you can get a "authentic" display using a pc monitor period.  

Howard,

Thanks once again for telling us that an arcade monitor is the only way you can get an 'authentic' display.  If you also read the thread, you would see that I have already stated that I am quite happy with my PC monitor, do not want an arcade monitor, and merely wanted to know what difference I would see if I hooked up my PC monitor using the BNC inputs vs the DB-15 input.  Surely I wasn't expecting it to magically transform into an arcade monitor (good!).