d9200/u3100 look like an arcade monitor?

[Ghoul]

I'm currently driving myself insane about what kind of monitor to get.

I know a lot of people on this board are using or have seen in person the d9200 and u3100 monitors. I was wondering if anyone had opinions on how they look running your average arcade game like marvel vs. capcom, street fighter, mortal kombat, or dig dug. Do they replicate the look of a jamma game very well (how well?)? Is it obvious that they are not true arcade monitors?

If not I will probably just go for a normal arcade monitor w/ jpac.

[Vesper]

I have a 9200 (27") in my cabinet.  I've never compared it side by side to a "real" arcade game, but I think it looks very much like an arcade monitor.  Scanlines and all.  The dot pitch isn't real small like a regular PC monitor, which helps it look more like arcade monitors.  

Personally, I couldn't be happier.  I have the best of both worlds.   A monitor I can run Windows on that looks like real thing.

[Lilwolf]

Vesper, could you take the spyhunter test?

http://www.xiaou2.homestead.com/turbo.html

How about anyone with a real arcade monitor through a jpac.

I would LOVE to see if its as good or better then the SVid.

Why?  If it's not better.... the SVid will be the best options.  Most video card support, You can hook a VCR/DVD/Dreamcast/PS2/ect to it directly.

Also, you can buy it local and not pay 40+ for shipping

[Vesper]

Sure I'll try to take a picture tonight so you can compare for yourself.

[Ghoul]

Sure I'll try to take a picture tonight so you can compare for yourself.

Oh man that'd be awesome for me too!

[Frostillicus]

I just finished a cab and put a 27" d2900 into it.  It is clearly the best solution in my opinion, if you don't mind spending a little $$$

I would recommend the d9200! It works great!  

although...one minor annoyance is that the onscreen menu keeps popping up for no apparent reason.  I've asked around here before but no one answered.  a push of the 'menu' button makes it go away, its a small price to pay for such a huge arcade monitor.

[Vesper]

although...one minor annoyance is that the onscreen menu keeps popping up for no apparent reason.  I've asked around here before but no one answered.  a push of the 'menu' button makes it go away, its a small price to pay for such a huge arcade monitor.

Haven't had that problem with mine.  Sounds like your Menu button is faulty/stuck.  (Probably a bad switch.  If you feel like soldering, you could always replace it.)

[SNAAAKE]

Ghoul,
Just got your pm,

D9200 is the best solution...

Lets make it very simple,It looks exactly like in the arcade except get rid of the annoying huge scanlines.

Hybrids monitors have tiny scanlines that are friendly to yours eyes...

Again,best monitors you can buy.

[Dave_K.]

Snaaake, I think that was the point of him asking the question.  Its possible the scan lines makes these games look more "original" than not.  For example, I played Robotron at the CA Extreme show and it obviously had an upgraded monitor as all the graphics looked blockier.  I went home and powered up my Robotron (with original G07 monitor) and it in my opinion it looks better with the scanlines.

Now this is just my opinion, and only on certain games.  The d9200 obviously has many other advantages over a std res arcade monitor, and I would presonally choose the d9200 (especially if wanting to put a console in your cab at some point).  

<mod> DUH! I just reaslized you could turn "scanlines on" in mame and simulate it with the d9200 and probably have it all  </mod>

[SNAAAKE]

Dont fix scanlines with hybrid monitors damn it..IT suck that way.

Just get the monitor Ghoul because just like the other guy said,"you couldn't be happier".

It looks better then how it looks if you connect directly to arcade monitor and use jamma board.Atleast in my opinion.

[Howard_Casto]

Dave actually you were right on the first part of your response.  Simulated scan lines look simulated.  If they didn't then this wouldn't even be an issue and we would all use svga monitors in our cabs (yuck).  

Hybrid montiors look like a really crappy svga monitor.  Btw, I don't mean that as in the picture quality is bad, but that the scan rate and res is low compared to a real pc monitor.  But regardless the picture is "crisp"  due to the type of pixels on the crt.  Even though the hybrids are closer resolution wise, the pixels still look square.  An arcade monitor or tv pixel looks round. This round pixel is what gives you the nice natural blending  and an "arcade" look.  Unfortunately at this point, no amount of mame filters can simulate this well.

So long story short if you are looking for an "arcade like" display then a hybrid probably isn't a good option.  

I've seen a lot of hybrids and so far none of them even come close to an arcade display due to lack of natural blending.  But if this is the exception, I would like to see pics of the spyhunter test for it as well....

[SNAAAKE]

a hybrid probably isn't a good option.  

SURE man,
Just because you dont have/can't afford then that doesn't mean its not good option.ITS A GREAT OPTION.(only my suggestion).

And guaranteed to wet your pants if you hook up a dreamcast with vga box .Just too great for the price.

[Frostillicus]

HC: The d9200 is definitely THE exception to the bad hybrids you were speaking of.  Trust me, the games look incredible, and I honestly couldn't tell the diff between my buddy's Alien Syndrome and the d9200's display.   It's NOT a computer monitor, that's for sure - I agree with snaaaaake it's the best you can get.

Unfortunately, I don't have a digital camera(or the cab anymore), so I can't do this "spyhunter" test right now.

Vesper: yeah i'm thinking it's the switch, too.  Guess I won't know till I get off my lazy --I'm attempting to get by the auto-censor and should be beaten after I re-read the rules-- and replace it  

[OSCAR]

Here's a closeup with my D9100 (the 18" version) with scan lines off.  The pic I took is really focused in on the car, so it's a bit more of a closeup than the Turbo comparison.  I don't know if you can directly compare this pic with the Turbo comparison since it is a different scale, but it should give you an idea.  I can say this, though, the picture quality for games is amazing, but not quite as fuzzy as my W-G7901 running through a JPAC.  I can snap a few more pics if anyone is interested.

[Ghoul]

I can snap a few more pics if anyone is interested.

Do you think you could get one of marvel vs. capcom? I have an arcade that runs this game like 10 minutes away that I visit all the time so it's really easy to compare the image quality.

Any pics are good though lol, I have to decide what monitor before I start building my cab and I've been waiting for a year to get a green light, finally got all involved convinced that it's a good idea.

[OSCAR]

Here's some MvsC pics, full screen and closeups:

http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc1.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc2.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc3.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc4.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc5.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc6.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc7.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc8.jpg
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/tmp/mvsc9.jpg

[Vesper]

Ok as promised, here's the pics.  I had some trouble getting my camera to focus because of the monitor/refresh and weird lighting conditions of being right next to the monitor so the results are a bit mixed.  I still think you can get a sense of what it looks like though.

All pics are 800x600 (converted from 2048x1536) and are around 100k each.

Here they are:

http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/spy1.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/spy2.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/spy3.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/spy4.jpg

And while I'm showing pictures, here's some pics of my cabinet  

http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/mame1.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/mame2.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/mame3.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/mame4.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/mame5.jpg
http://home.wi.rr.com/dg64738/mame6.jpg

- Mike

[SNAAAKE]

OSCAR,
Got a quick Q.

Are you running that 18" monitor on windows XP?
Because if you do then i'd say switch to win 98 or me.
Then the blockyness is totally gone..There is a dramic change.It will be much cleaner and no blockyness ever.

TRUST me on that one.The pictures looked blocky/jagged and I know these monitors act funny when used with XP.

[OSCAR]

Nope, I'm running SuSE 8.0 w/ AdvanceMAME 0.61.3.

I just loaded up both of those roms without changing any of the AdvanceMAME default settings.  I know what you are talking about, though, because I have been playing with the Video settings on some other games, and I can get a better picture without the blockiness.  I was just trying to show what the pixels looked like with the closeup shots.

[Howard_Casto]

a hybrid probably isn't a good option.  

SURE man,
Just because you dont have/can't afford then that doesn't mean its not good option.ITS A GREAT OPTION.(only my suggestion).

And guaranteed to wet your pants if you hook up a dreamcast with vga box .Just too great for the price.

Actually when I built my cab I could have gotten one but I choose not to for the stated reasons, which are totally and completely true.  I'm sorry that you don't see it that way.  

Umm showing that you would hook a dreamcast... a device designed to run on a ntsc display to a vga box kind of proves my point.  Your not interested in a true arcade look, which is fine, but don't tell me I'm wrong on this, because hypbrids monitors, do
not look like a true arcade monitor.  They're better than a svga display but just about anything is.  As usual man your just stirring up trouble so chill a little why don't cha.

As oscar's pics showed it is  better than a standard svga monitor but still subpar compared to a real arcade monitor.  Now a tv would give you the proper blending but it would be a little too fuzzy in some cases.  Personally I couldn't stand it if it wasn't blended... it's like playing mame on my regular desktop pc (yuck).  

[OSCAR]

Anyone that is truly picky about their display should certainly consider AdvanceMAME, regardless if you are using an arcade or PC monitor.

On my D9100 [w/ AdvanceMAME], I can adjust the Video settings to make the picture anything from razor sharp (i.e., like a PC monitor), to so fuzzy you can't even play it.

Here's just a quick comparison of some different filter/video effects on Pac-Man.  Of course there are many different effects that give excellent looking results, I just chose a couple that were very contrasting :




Keep in mind that the river can't rise above it's source, so to speak.  Meaning that if you start out with a crappy looking display, then there's not much you can do to improve it.  For an out-of-the box solution that most closely resembles a true arcade monitor, I have to agree with Howard that a TV using s-video is about as good as you can get.  However, if you are looking for total control and you're not against going with AdvanceMAME, I would have to recommend something like the VGA-compatible arcade monitors like the W-G 9100/9200.  Naturally you don't have to use AdvanceMAME w/ a hybrid monitor, I just prefer it.  It all depends on what suits you best, I guess.

[SirPoonga]

OSCAR, advancemame has examples too.

http://advancemame.sourceforge.net/blit.html

[Howard_Casto]

Thanks man... those pictures show what I am getting at.    That's a really good filter you have applied but it still looks like a display that's been filtered. That's all I'm getting at.  If you can stand filters then it's really a nice picture and it does some good blending.  

But to me the filters are nasty, and look fake. It's a personal peeve of mine.  Those hybrid monitors give a great display, but it still doesn't seem arcade authentic to me.  

Again it's all preference, but hopefully thanks to your visual aids everyone can see what we are both getting it.

[mikenotbob]

Oscar,

I'm with you... I would highly recommend advancemame., regardless of what type of monitor you're using.  Tripling the resolution and using the scan2vert worked like a dream for me.

Unfortunately, there are so many issues to factor in when purchasing a monitor; What type of games you'll be playing, ease of use, pickiness of user...

I've recently started scanning BYOAC again (after a 2-3 year hiatus), and noticed how complex things have become, and I've noticed a lot of advice given (and wuestions asked)without specifying what TYPE of games they are concerned with most.

For example, if you will be playing early 80's pacman/donkey kong games most, getting monitor advice from the Street Fighter crowd isn't all too helpful.  The newer arcade games have infinitely better monitors than the old scanline ridden monitors.  (man, you have to laugh at how much time we spend getting nice displays looking like hell. )

Personally, I'm using a PC monitor, because I play vectors, scanline ridden 80's games, straight through to Marvel vs. Capcom released in '98.  On a scale from 1 to 5, I'd rather have a quality 3-4 rating on everything than a 5 rating on some and a 2 on others, if you get my drift.  I bet that the hybrid monitor may even be a better choice for the 'play everything' player than the pc monitor, but they just weren't as readily available/cheap/well researched back when i built my cabinet.

[Ghoul]

Well for me:

Based off sitting around playing games with a gamepad on my comp for these last few months I play around 80% fighting games (marvel vs. capcom and street fighter 2/alpha series to be specific). This might change when I get a decent four way stick, but I doubt it.

My main reason for going with a hybrid monitor is that I had understood that it gave a nearly arcade perfect image while displaying windows well, meaning that I could run computer games that work well in a cabinet such as nfl blitz, virtua tennis, and mortal kombat 4 as opposed to being only good for mame.  An arcade monitor is of course, really only good for mame.

I had avoided the tv route mainly because I don't want to go blind sitting 2-4 feet away from this thing playing it hours on end and I figured as far as eye strain goes a tv has to be much worse than an arcade monitor (especially a hybrid).

[SNAAAKE]

Good for you

Pc games look great too.I play FPS all the time.

GOD !  try medal of honor onces you get the monitor.

woooo hoo.... ...too good looky

[Carsten Carlos]

I got some pitures of the WellsGardner U3100 on my site http://www.mittelalterlicher-markt.de/arcade at the monitor-section. There is also a comparision picture between WG U3100 vs SVGA-monitor.

Only available up to 19", so if you need it bigger this wouldn't be a choice. Unfortunately I've no real arcademonitor by my side to compare, but I think it's rather realistic.

@Howie - ever seen the U3100? At least it has bleedings colors and no blockieness!   No wonder, dotpinch is 0.71mm, its not that fun to watch windows with this, but anyway, I wanna play games in a cab and not word-processing!

[Ghoul]

Oh no my above statement doesn't mean I'm going with a hybrid, whoops I suppose it's worded that way huh. I was mainly giving out my reasons for why I would go with each and what kind of games I play.

[Xiaou2]

Hi Guys,

 Thanks for the pics.


  Just a few notes on taking closeup pics...

 Take pics at a resolution of 800*600 instead of 1024 or higher.   The reason, is that the camera then pics up too much detail... and because of the light so close, it distorts the image.    Its basically like putting your eyeball an inch or so from your tv.  Sure... you can see all the lines... but thats not what you really see from 1ft away.

(yup... I messed up and shot the 'composite' pic in hi-res.  Ill have to retake it someday when time permits...)

 The other thing, is that I cropped a lot of the picture.  Some of the pics I saw were out of focus... and this is why...   You want to take the pic as close as possible... yet still keep focus.  This may be arround 4-8inches away... and you will have to experiment.  

 Also, make sure your batteries are charged up full, as weak ones will delay the time it takes to activate the shutter - thus causing a blur from your unsteady hand movments. (I originally though my camera was broken because 90% of shots were comming out blurred.  I had to actually buy new rechageables... as my old ones lost too much of thier original storage capacity)

 I cant remember, as it was a quite while ago... but I may have even scaled the cropped images down 50% with Paint.

 Remove glass or plexi beofre taking pics.  Be carefull of the lighting.  It shouldnt be too bright, or you will get glare.   Take the pics at night, as sunlight will produce different hues and effects.   Obviously, dont use a flash : )   Youll blind yourself, as well as the camera!   ^_^

[Xiaou2]

hmmm... thought about this a little more.   If your camera dosnt support low res like 800*600... you may be out of luck.

 The only thing you can do... is to move the camera further away (8-12+inches) ... and hope for the best.

 other tips... make sure scanlines and hardeware strech are off.

[OSCAR]

Thanks man... those pictures show what I am getting at.    That's a really good filter you have applied but it still looks like a display that's been filtered. That's all I'm getting at.  If you can stand filters then it's really a nice picture and it does some good blending.  

But to me the filters are nasty, and look fake. It's a personal peeve of mine.  Those hybrid monitors give a great display, but it still doesn't seem arcade authentic to me.  

Again it's all preference, but hopefully thanks to your visual aids everyone can see what we are both getting it.

No problem, Howie!  Just keep in mind, though, that I intentionally chose a wild & phony looking filter just to illustrate both ends of the spectrum.  What I have shown on the right side of my comparison photo isn't what I would consider playable for games, and is actually worse than a true arcade monitor.  Between the different video modes/RGB/filter effects, etc. available with AdvanceMAME there are many, many combinations that can be used to get nearly any effect to fall between the two examples I have shown.  With AdvanceMAME, you aren't limited to the very few effects that are available with standard MAME.

[Dink]

For example, if you will be playing early 80's pacman/donkey kong games most, getting monitor advice from the Street Fighter crowd isn't all too helpful.  The newer arcade games have infinitely better monitors than the old scanline ridden monitors.  (man, you have to laugh at how much time we spend getting nice displays looking like hell. )

Personally, I'm using a PC monitor, because I play vectors, scanline ridden 80's games, straight through to Marvel vs. Capcom released in '98.  On a scale from 1 to 5, I'd rather have a quality 3-4 rating on everything than a 5 rating on some and a 2 on others, if you get my drift.  I bet that the hybrid monitor may even be a better choice for the 'play everything' player than the pc monitor, but they just weren't as readily available/cheap/well researched back when i built my cabinet.

I think you've hit the nail on the head.  Pardon me for jumping in but you've made a good point for reference.  It all depends on the software you run in your MAME cabinet too!

I've been using a PC monitor for a while now and could never understand why someone would want to move to an arcade monitor.  I already know I'm not happy with the color bleed and fuzziness on a TV, composite or S-video.  I've tried it.

I started wanting something bigger for the MAME cabinet, say in 27" area.  It is hard to find a PC monitor that big, that is affordable.  So I began the hunt for an arcade monitor, even a VGA hybrid monitor (Wells-Gardner d9200).

Your post has put me back in check as I do want crispness in Daphne, Visual Pinball, and my NES, Atari 2600, and Nintendo 64 emulators.  No arcade monitor is going to make me happy, no matter the size.

I guess the only thing available to me now is those 40" plasma screens.    I'll go back to enjoying my 21" .22 pitch Hitachi now.

Thanks for posting.

[Howard_Casto]

Your post has put me back in check as I do want crispness in Daphne, Visual Pinball, and my NES, Atari 2600, and Nintendo 64 emulators.  No arcade monitor is going to make me happy, no matter the size.

Good points but just for the record.... Visual pinball is the only emulator you mentoined that is intended to be played on a pc monitor.  The laserdisc games of the 80's were ran on a standard/medium res arcade monitor.  Actually the rips of orignal laserdiscs look worse if they aren't at least played on a tv.    All consoles are designed to be ran on a ntsc display (tv) for proper blending to occur.  None of these systems/games you mentioed are supposed to be crisp.  As a matter of fact, even to this day console game developers depend upon the "crappiness" of your tv.  They use a technique to where they make a game at 640*480 or higher (well above what your average tv can display) and then port it stragiht out through the console's outputs.  And poof, like magic you get alpha blending, due to the conversion without taxing the system's processors.  The n64 is a great example of this.... notice how awful the sprites and 2d graphics look on your n64 emulator?  That is because the resoution is too high.  Put that thing through tv output, on the same computer, with the same resolution settings, and all of that clears up.  

Also for the record the games of the early 80's used the very same display as the modern street fighters.  With the exception of vector games and those really cool projection tv cabinets, virtually all arcade machines used a very generic 19 inch medium res monitor. (Or in the case of 4 player games a medium res  25 inch monitor.)   In other words the "fuzz" factor was the same regardless of the game.  

Now before someone nit-picks there are exceptions, I just haven't heard them mentioned so far.

So now you know, and knowing is half the battle.  

[Dink]

None of these systems/games you mentioed are supposed to be crisp.  As a matter of fact, even to this day console game developers depend upon the "crappiness" of your tv.  They use a technique to where they make a game at 640*480 or higher (well above what your average tv can display) and then port it stragiht out through the console's outputs.  And poof, like magic you get alpha blending, due to the conversion without taxing the system's processors.  The n64 is a great example of this.... notice how awful the sprites and 2d graphics look on your n64 emulator?

The N64 emulation looks about 10 times better emulated because IT IS displaying at 640x480 on my PC monitor (some do 800x600) and they're using OpenGL rendering.  Every N64 game I've played so far looks better emulated on a PC monitor than a TV screen (at least the side by side comparisons I've done).

It comes down to personal preference.  Just because games aren't suppose to be displayed that way doesn't mean I don't like them that way.  I don't care what the designers were doing to make it look good back then.  I want it to look great now.

[Howard_Casto]

Actually unless you are using fancy filtering options and scan lines with your video card it almost has to look worse.  Now the 3d elements might look better but not the 2d as the sprites are made for a smaller pixel area. (Screen filters are bad, umk)

But it's not anything to argue over.  

And your right it's presonal preference as to weather you want the games to look as they were intended or not, which was the point of this thread. What you are suggesting, even if you think it looks better, definately does not display the game as originally intended.

[Dave_K.]

Anyone know what the "dot pitch" of the d9200 is?  The larger the dot pictch, the softer and rounder the pixels will be.  In fact most "vga" monitors above 21" have really bad dot pitches (the tubes are much more like TVs).  So we shouldn't be comparing a desktop computer monitor to the d9200 (as far as how blocky/crisp the pixels are).  Maybe this is why some people think games look quite original on the d9200.  I'm sure older games like Pac man maybe don't look "original" as HC and I would think, but later games like Area 51 might be dead on .

[Dink]

Actually unless you are using fancy filtering options and scan lines with your video card it almost has to look worse.  Now the 3d elements might look better but not the 2d as the sprites are made for a smaller pixel area. (Screen filters are bad, umk)

But it's not anything to argue over.  

"has to?",  "might look better?"  With all your speculation you might just have an argument.  But wait, lets look at some facts...

Do me a favor and load up Project 64.  Load up the Diddy Kong Racing or the Hydro Thunder ROM.  Configure the graphics plug-in for 1600x1200 resolution, 32 bit color depth, Triple Buffer display mode, Direct 3D HAL.

Oh wait, you do that on a d9200 or any arcade monitor out there.

No need to argue about it.

[Xiaou2]

  After taking close looks between the 9100, 9200 ect here, Im a bit relieved.   I was thinking that the picture would be closer to original arcade quality than svideo... and I simply didnt have the extra 200$ to find out...

  Well, from looking at the pics, it looks like those monitors actually have Higher dot pitch than my panasonic 27".  

  Look closely at where the dirt and grass meets.   On the svideo, its hard to pic out the pixel blocks, as they are blended in color very well.   Yet on the 9100,9200s you can actually easily make out the rough pixel edges.   There dosnt seem to be much color blending either.

  The original arcades displays 'output' seemed to be higher in res than than what could actually be displayed correctly on the monitor... so a single lone pixel would only display half the color intensity, and have a strong color bleeded edge.   But... if you put two or more pixels side by side... they are really bright and clear.   Also, by staggering pixels, you can create advanced blending... and even transparent shadow like images (shown lightly right side of  the spyhunter car... more heavily on some capcom games)

  Anyway, while Im not saying svideo is the perfect answer... its the most affordable, and the best looking 'imop'... in regards to older authentic arcade
machines.

  The only thing I think could top it would be Andys new card, with an older low dot pitch monitor... and Id still have to see it in action - close up spy hunter style    

  The biggest problem with svideo- is the loss of colors...blue & green, and when you increase them, the red is too strong and bleeds badly.   There is a ballence though... so its not too bad (all colors a 'little' dull)... and with the new upcomming mame... they are adding RGB sliders so that you can adjust the color output.   This should allow us to reduce the reds, so that when upping the tvs saturation, it will be in perfect ballence : )

  In addition, Id like to say... that yeah... everyone is going to use these displays for different porposes.   Some are playing more modern games, and want to keep the details high... but us old timers may be playing a blend of the old games, and arnt happy if they dont match how we saw them when we were young. (intended display look)
This again, is purely 'opinion', and no reason to argue.

[mikenotbob]

Man, it's been a looong time since I looked at the back of my monitor, but I am positive that I do have RGB inputs, and may have s-video (not 100% sure on the s-video).  Is there any way to utilize the RGB inputs w/ a pc, and would there be any advantage?  Clearly I wouldn't want a SHARPER image, but would i get a brighter, more colorful image?

[Aqualung]

I do have an Sony 21" TV with only RCA Video in and the GeForce has both RCA and S-Video, so I'd like to know if it will have any difference if I plug the GeForce's RCA out to the TV's in, or if I'll have better quality if use the S-Video out from the card and put a S-Video to RCA adaptor to hook it on the TV.

[Xiaou2]

I do have an Sony 21" TV with only RCA Video in and the GeForce has both RCA and S-Video, so I'd like to know if it will have any difference if I plug the GeForce's RCA out to the TV's in, or if I'll have better quality if use the S-Video out from the card and put a S-Video to RCA adaptor to hook it on the TV.

 I dont think anyone would have a definite answer on this unless they had tried both ways as well... but basically, it 'should' be the same.

  Maybe if the conversion is done closer to the tv though... that signal loss would be less, as opposed to the already degraded rca composite signal traveling further down the wire - degrading even more.

  Basically though,  rca (composite)  is always going to look pretty awefull, because the color/detail information is reduced.   If you can, hold out for an svideo tv, as the prices are falling on them big time. (probably due to hdtv's)

[Howard_Casto]

Actually unless you are using fancy filtering options and scan lines with your video card it almost has to look worse.  Now the 3d elements might look better but not the 2d as the sprites are made for a smaller pixel area. (Screen filters are bad, umk)

But it's not anything to argue over.  

"has to?",  "might look better?"  With all your speculation you might just have an argument.  But wait, lets look at some facts...

Do me a favor and load up Project 64.  Load up the Diddy Kong Racing or the Hydro Thunder ROM.  Configure the graphics plug-in for 1600x1200 resolution, 32 bit color depth, Triple Buffer display mode, Direct 3D HAL.

Oh wait, you do that on a d9200 or any arcade monitor out there.

No need to argue about it.

Wtf are you talking about man? Console games are meant to be on a tv not an arcade monitor.  I have no clue how an arcade monitor can be used as a rebuttal regarding this argument.  And actually it's an almost undisputed fact, but I've been accused of wording things to0 harsh.  I guess you can't please anyone around here.

And I have seen the n64 emulators on various displays (pc, arcade monitor, ect) with various resolutions and the only way it looks authentic is on a tv. Gee that's probably because the n64 only outputted to a tv. ;P

For the record I'm very anti emulation when it comes to newer consoles which you can still buy the games, and affordibly at that.  (In other words you have no excuse, go buy the real game and quit ripping the company off.)  But that's another issue entirely.  Kind of like why you would want to run a system that has long playing games that are controlled by an analog stick, standing up, on your arcade machine, instead of sitting down on the couch in front of the boob tube, with a very nice analog n64 controller, like normal.  

Oh and further down the thread......

It rarely happens but I completely agree with Xiaou2.

You see the hybrid monitors are superior, but unfortunately that is also the problem.  We want to make the display look crappy, else we would all use pc monitors.  A tv gives you the most authentic display for your money and it's also the easiest to work with.

It's not as sharp a picture by any means, but it looks so much closer to an arcade monitor, which also isn't a very sharp display.  As I said, game designers use the display type to their advantage, and  a perfect example fo this is the spyhunter test.  It just looks pixelated and junky on a hybrid or pc but it's passable on a arcade monitor or tv.  

Some things you just can't emulate, and the display it's outputted on is one of them unfortunately.    Filters help, but if it's the wrong dot pitch and pixel shape then they won't do a whole lot of good.  This goes for console games, pc games and arcade games respectively.  

[SNAAAKE]

Howard,
Why dont you stick with the legendary TV of yours and never post on this topic again ?

Its getting sorta annoying already .

[rampy]

Howard,
Why dont you stick with the legendary TV of yours and never post on this topic again ?

Its getting sorta annoying already .

Oy vey... I bet it's gonna get warm in here real soon...

From what I can tell it's largely a matter of semantics, and subjectivity/preference...

A n64/console etc will look more authentic on a TV-esque display, however the pictures might look "better"/cooler (subjective) HLE'd with a fancier vid card and higher resolution...

authentic != better
authentic == authentic

It's also a matter of degrees of taste/tolerance (again subjective)... Howard (from what I can tell - my opinion/observation)  seems to be very picky/more discerning (that sounds harsher than I mean to... it's for lack of a better word ATM ) about how something looks visually.  What I think looks good enough for me to enjoy "classic" games, is definitelly not good enough for howard's taste...  (as an example...)

*shrug* YMMV

Rampy

[Dave Dribin]

FWIW, I have a U3100 and it looks absolutely awesome.  This is running MAME, Atari 2600, NES, SNES, and Genesis.  To be honest, most MAME games look identical to their original as far as I can remember, especially if you rotate the horizontal games so they take up the entire screen.  Ms. Pac-Man rotated on a U3100 is perfect.  I'd highly recommed a U3100 over a PC monitor.  And compared to an arcade monitor, no fuss.. just plug it in.  It can only do res up to 800x600.  I couldn't get it stable on 1024x768.  Now even though it can do these high resolutions, it has a very coarse dot pitch.  I think the course dot pitch is the key to getting that authentic look.   The U3100 has the same dot pitch (.71mm) as the non-VGA Wells-Gardner arcade monitors, which is why I think the U3100 looks so good.  The only drawback to the U3100 is the max size is only 19".  Well, and price.  When I bought my U3100 it was still cheaper than a 19" PC monitor, but not these days.  It's money well spent, though.

Haven't tried Daphne or Project64.  I imagine these might not be as good since you may actually want a higher resolution and finer dot pitch.  Can the D200 run at higher resolutions than 800x600?

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

Oy vey... I bet it's gonna get warm in here real soon...

From what I can tell it's largely a matter of semantics, and subjectivity/preference...

A n64/console etc will look more authentic on a TV-esque display, however the pictures might look "better"/cooler (subjective) HLE'd with a fancier vid card and higher resolution...

authentic != better
authentic == authentic

It's also a matter of degrees of taste/tolerance (again subjective)... Howard (from what I can tell - my opinion/observation)  seems to be very picky/more discerning (that sounds harsher than I mean to... it's for lack of a better word ATM ) about how something looks visually.  What I think looks good enough for me to enjoy "classic" games, is definitelly not good enough for howard's taste...  (as an example...)

*shrug* YMMV

Rampy

I agree completely.  And that was the point of this entire discussion.  If you look at the orignal post the topic was what would give a more authentic display not what looks "better" (which is subjective and silly to agrue over.)  Without a doubt console games look the most authentic on a tv as this is what they ran on.  Also arcade games look the most authentic on an arcade montior and are almost as authentic on a tv as they use practically the same crt tube, just different methods of input.  

What you guys think looks "better" is irrelevant to what looks the most authentic.  One is opinion, the other is fact based on the physical limitations of the medium.  The closer the dot pitch and pixel "shape" to the orignal display the more authentic it will look.  This makes perfect and logical sense to me, so I have no clue why people are trying to argue this.  

For arcade games.....

arcade monitor=perfect
tv=less than perfect
pc/hybrid=the least perfect

for consoles....
tv=perfect
arcade monitor=less than perfect (due to resolution limitations, not the display)  
pc/hybrid=the least perfect


Now guys this has nothing to do with what you think looks the "best" but what is going to look the most like the orignal hardware the games ran on.  Perfect !=best... prefect==most authentic display.

How in the world can you argue otherwise?


Oh and Snaake your famous

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame46.html

[rampy]

Oh and Snaake your famous

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame46.html

Howard.. I hadn't seen the flame warriors site before... that's totally classic.  thanks for posting it =)

rampy

[Howard_Casto]

I thought some might get a kick out of that.  Not to be holier than thou I'm in there too, but you'll have to figure out which one(s).  

To quote the human torch...
"Flame On!!"

[Dave Dribin]

For arcade games.....

arcade monitor=perfect
tv=less than perfect
pc/hybrid=the least perfect

for consoles....
tv=perfect
arcade monitor=less than perfect (due to resolution limitations, not the display)  
pc/hybrid=the least perfect

I would agree, except I wouldn't lump PC and hybrid together, esp. if you consider U3100 a hybrid.  In fact, I would say the U3100 does not fall under the hybrid distinction at all, but arcade monitor.  AFAIK, the U3100 is basically an arcade monitor with a VGA interface, rather than a mountable PC monitor.  As I mentioned the dot pitch for the U3100 is .71 mm whereas a typical PC monitor's is .25.  They're not even in the same ballpark.

No idea where a D200 falls in place, but I suspect that it is closer to a mountable PC monitor after checking out Oscar's pics.  Just looked up the specs for the D200, one thing cool is that the monitor controls are on an I2C bus.  This means you could write some software to control the monitor over the serial or parallel port or something.  Pretty wacky.  You could write something that lets you control the display from the control panel joysticks and buttons.

-Dave

[Howard_Casto]

Yeah I'll agree with that too.  I was speaking in general.  I'm definatley not arrogant enough to think I know the exact output of every single monitor out there either.  Like some of the plasma screens, although technically a tv, have a horrible picture in terms of authenticity due to the extreme clarity and different display type.  

[Dave_K.]

I thought some might get a kick out of that.  Not to be holier than thou I'm in there too, but you'll have to figure out which one(s).  

To quote the human torch...
"Flame On!!"

Heh! Funny site!  I tried looking for your personality, but didn't see "arrogant bastard" listed!    I jest, I jest!

For the sake of fun, I also couldn't find mine own "maximus pecker head" listed.  

[Howard_Casto]

Try philosopher or maximus something or other.

[)p(]

Man, it's been a looong time since I looked at the back of my monitor, but I am positive that I do have RGB inputs, and may have s-video (not 100% sure on the s-video).  Is there any way to utilize the RGB inputs w/ a pc, and would there be any advantage?  Clearly I wouldn't want a SHARPER image, but would i get a brighter, more colorful image?

here in europe most tv's have an rgb scart input...you can directly connect the r,g,b of your vga output to it. It will not be sharper in the sense of more blocky but it certainly is better then s-video when it comes to color bleeding. For all things and purposes it looks exactly like an arcade monitor at least in the case of the arcade monitor and tv I saw running beside each other a while back.

Peter

[Howard_Casto]

Peter's right.... the only picture degredation worth mentioning when you go with svideo is the fact that all three colors are combined.  

When you use scart it has the luma, like svid, but also splits the colors, eliminating the color "dullness" and color bleeding associated with svideo out.  It makes a near perfect picture in terms of authenticity.

I dare you to find anything better, save a real arcade montior.

[)p(]

Peter's right.... the only picture degredation worth mentioning when you go with svideo is the fact that all three colors are combined.  

When you use scart it has the luma, like svid, but also splits the colors, eliminating the color "dullness" and color bleeding associated with svideo out.  It makes a near perfect picture in terms of authenticity.

I dare you to find anything better, save a real arcade montior.

And I still found enough personal reasons to go with a pc monitor
just to make sure hehe: better as in more accurate = rgb tv, better for )p(= pc monitor  

Peter

[Tommy Boy]

Peter,

For the record, what is your preferred video setup, including monitor model, video card, software setup, special settings or configurations, etc.??

[)p(]

Peter,

For the record, what is your preferred video setup, including monitor model, video card, software setup, special settings or configurations, etc.??

I think my setup is a bit weird for most taste. After using advance mame for a long time using lots of custom modes I switched to regular mame's win 32 build with my fe as a frontend. I use a vertical mounted iiyama 19 inch vision master pro (those diamondtrons) with a geforce 2mx 64 mb soon to be repllaced by a geforce 4 ti 4200.

My setup is pretty simple...I use fixed 640x480 resolution modes with exact double refresh rates...ie stuff like 114hz , 120 hz etc. using hardware stretch to fill the screen...beneath the bezel glass it gives a nice smooth image for most games.
For horizontal games to make them a bit bigger but at the same time to not distort the image to much I use 15|horizontal|-screen_aspect 4:4| so all horizontal games get a aspect rastio of 4:4.
For vector games I use 1024x768 with a beam of I believe 2 to make the lines a bit thicker.

As you can see I am not after an authentic look but a look that looks best to me. And it does look better for me then on a real  arcade monitor... The only thing I want is another cab for horizontal games because the 4:4 aspect ration is of course a compromise...


Peter

[mikenotbob]

Cool... so if I hooked up my R, G, and B up to three individual inputs, I should expect more vivid and brighter colors, compared to the standard VGA monitor cable?

This is a PC monitor, btw, not a tv, that has these inputs.

If this is the case, I'm quite interested in hooking it up in this manner.  Does this require a custom video card, or a mod to my videocard? An additional part? Surely it needs something.

[SirPoonga]

There are monitors that take RGB input, Which is called BNC on these monitors.

Here'e an example.

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/crt_p220f.htm#specs

Note, I didn't read completely what you are trying to do yet.   If oyu are hooking up a PCB or such that monitor won't do since it does 30Khz.

[Minwah]

[quote author=)p( link=board=1;threadid=2960;start=40#17822

here in europe most tv's have an rgb scart input...you can directly connect the r,g,b of your vga output to it. It will not be sharper in the sense of more blocky but it certainly is better then s-video when it comes to color bleeding. For all things and purposes it looks exactly like an arcade monitor at least in the case of the arcade monitor and tv I saw running beside each other a while back.

Peter

What else do you have to do to get a PC to output to a TV via scart??  It can't be THAT easy or surely everyone would be doing it...

[)p(]

[quote author=)p( link=board=1;threadid=2960;start=40#17822

here in europe most tv's have an rgb scart input...you can directly connect the r,g,b of your vga output to it. It will not be sharper in the sense of more blocky but it certainly is better then s-video when it comes to color bleeding. For all things and purposes it looks exactly like an arcade monitor at least in the case of the arcade monitor and tv I saw running beside each other a while back.

Peter

What else do you have to do to get a PC to output to a TV via scart??  It can't be THAT easy or surely everyone would be doing it...

you will have to use advance mame or something similar to output at the correct tv frequency...

Peter

[Howard_Casto]

Cool... so if I hooked up my R, G, and B up to three individual inputs, I should expect more vivid and brighter colors, compared to the standard VGA monitor cable?

This is a PC monitor, btw, not a tv, that has these inputs.

If this is the case, I'm quite interested in hooking it up in this manner.  Does this require a custom video card, or a mod to my videocard? An additional part? Surely it needs something.

No, no, no!

Svga/vga is the best output period in terms of vivid colors and brightness.  Read the thread... this is about arcade authenticity.  There isn't a way you can get a "authentic" display using a pc monitor period.  Even if you hook up via the rgb the pixels on your monitor are still "square"  and thus the picture will look blocky.  All you would manage to do would be to make a crappier display, and not in the good "more authentic" way.    

[Dave_K.]

Even if you hook up via the rgb the pixels on your monitor are still "square"  and thus the picture will look blocky.  All you would manage to do would be to make a crappier display, and not in the good "more authentic" way.    

The dot pitch of desktop monitors are way way smaller than the dot pitch of an arcade tube.  Thus running a computer monitor at a very high resolution you could put several of those little "square"  pixels into an antialiased "round" dot about the size of one arcade monitor pixel.  This is what people are doing with Advance mame to get the authentic look.  Now to you and me Howard, of course this isn't really "authentic" since it not a real arcade monitor, but you will be hard pressed to visually notice much of a difference.

I only noticed a difference between upgraded monitors when I saw one hooked up to an original robotron cabinet (yuck!)

[mikenotbob]

There are monitors that take RGB input, Which is called BNC on these monitors.

Sir Poonga, thanks for the info on what these connectors are called.  I did a search on the web and found out that regardless if there is a benefit to connecting the monitor via BNC, I don't feel like going through the frustration of building/buying a circuit on the hunch i may get a brighter display.

Read the thread... this is about arcade authenticity.  There isn't a way you can get a "authentic" display using a pc monitor period.  

Howard,

Thanks once again for telling us that an arcade monitor is the only way you can get an 'authentic' display.  If you also read the thread, you would see that I have already stated that I am quite happy with my PC monitor, do not want an arcade monitor, and merely wanted to know what difference I would see if I hooked up my PC monitor using the BNC inputs vs the DB-15 input.  Surely I wasn't expecting it to magically transform into an arcade monitor (good!).