Micro-PC (for mini cabs)

[lightspeed]

Check this puppy out:

http://www.tomshardware.com/howto/02q4/021009/micropc-01.html

[Chris]

Nifty... I have a PC that size at home.  It's a very OLD PC, though... a 386SX-33 with 16MB of RAM!  I have Linux running on it, and it acts as the firewall for my home network....

Anyway, I think this Micro PC is a bit overkill for a mini MAME cabinet; a motherboard with integrated audio and video would probably do the trick just fine a lot cheaper...

Thanks for the link!

--Chris

[Howard_Casto]

Actually I don't think either option would be good.  

Integrated audio and video are major hassles, especially when you are trying to use a tv or arcade monitor as a display.  Integrated audio is always sub-par to your cheapest stand alone pci card, and integrated video is always shared memory and very slow for that reason.  

Btw I have worked on those small "all in one pc's" a lot.  That is because they break down a lot.  For no apparent reason either, they just overheat or stop working.

Now either option might be ok for a 80's mamecab with a svga monitor, but that's about it unfortunately.  

You pretty much have to get special sound and video cards for a mamecab, so one of those would limit your options dramatically.  

[creatine28]

Here's a different one I found!   Cool but just wondering how much of a issue will it be to config or upgrade this type of system?

http://http://www.thinkgeek.com/stuff/computing/5a98.shtml

[lightspeed]

The article mentions that they stress tested for 30 hours, no faults.    Hopefully, they'll start to be able to build small systems like this soon that aren't prone to overheating...

[tom61]

Integrated audio is always sub-par to your cheapest stand alone pci card

Not really true if you get modern integrated audio, most are approacing SoundBlaster Live quality.  My Athlon XP system has integrated sound, and the only thing lacking is the fact it doesn't have amplified out for headphones (a bummer since I want to go to Lan parties with as few accessories as possible).

I've played Quake 3 (still with sounds) and Winamp(for background music) at the same time without hicups.

Now older pre-Socket A integrated sound I agree with you completely.  My old socket 7 system's integrated audio couldn't even play MP3s without skipping!

[SirPoonga]

tom is right, integrates audio is getting alot better.  There are good integrated video out there too.  It;s just that they get a bad rap because integrated audio and video in the past WAS crap.

[mtd]

If your cabinet requires a small computer, then look at the shuttle products at http://www.newegg.com/ -- Click on All products, then on Barebone systems, then on Shuttle.  While they all come with onboard audio/video they also have open AGP and PCI slots.  This allows you the freedom to choose your own video card/sound card, and yet still provide you with a computer case that has a VERY small footprint.

[Lilwolf]

Theres pretty good integrated video these days (Geforce4go and ATI has one coming based on the 9000 series for dx8 apps).... but these are both good for 2d and 3d.  On smaller systems, 2d is more important then 3d... but you usually find crappy 2d with crap 3d cards...

but this one hands down doesn't.  It was the reason it was being compared with a 1.4ghz athlon in a lot of the speed tests.  If they upped the video card to be closer to non-crap trident style video, then I bet it would do better.

[Howard_Casto]

tom is right, integrates audio is getting alot better.  There are good integrated video out there too.  It;s just that they get a bad rap because integrated audio and video in the past WAS crap.

Good integrated audio is workable, but even the best integrated video is not.  The problem is the first thing you need to upgrade after ram/processor is the video card.  If it's integrated then you can't do this without issues. Also for some goofy reason the tv-out isn't as good on an integated card.  It makes no sense to me but you can have the same ati chipset, one integrated and one a stock ati card and the stock card will do great.  The integrated chipset will look much worse in every case I've seen.  My theory on this is that much of the circuitry is left to the motherboard manufacturer instead of the video card manufacturer.  Since they aren't as good at making video cards, it always turns out slightly worse.  Sound cards are more forgiving as you don't actually see the difference.  (pun intended)  But from what I've tested at least, even the fancy creative chipset integrated chips fair a little worse then their stand alone counter parts.  

Another place where you have to look out are the drivers.  When it's integrated the drivers are usually different  and it's the mb manufacturer's responsiblity to make modified drivers and keep them updated.  You can sometimes run into a problem there in a big way.

[HeadRusch]

I broke down today and decided my Mini-Mame cab needed more than the Pro-200 I had lying around.

I did decide to make my Pro-200 into a Printserver for the Laserprinter

Anyhow, I just picked up from assorted places on Pricwatch:
1) FIC AMD motherboard - $27.05
2) AMD 1.33Ghz Athlon running the 266 bus....$42.00
3) ATI Radeon 7500 $54.00 (I over did it on the videocard because this PC is also pretty powerful for most modern 3D games as well, never know when you might want to skip mame, plug in a keyboard, and go for a few rounds of Counterstrike against the bots!

Anyways the moral here is technology is damn near practically free.  I'd never buy a "mini-PC" system, better to buy quality components and just plug them all together.  Even the AMD approved 300 watt power supply was only $12 bucks after shipping.........

That system above, if you factor in the cost of some DDR Ram and a 20 gig HD is still only a couple hundred bucks.  its got onboard sound, but I don't think I 'll use it.  I have a spare Aureal 3D card lying around thats PCI, SB16 compatible, and frankly is a great card.........

The only problem I have with onboard audio is that it uses CPU cycles to run, you're better off getting a $10 soundcard with a PCI interface and not having to let the processor handle the audio duties.  

Onboard video is almost universally = to crap

[mtd]

I agree that on-board anything is not as good as the PCI, AGP version of anything. That said, I could live with on-board lan and audio.  Last studies that I looked at only indicated a 3% drop in performance for on-board audio.

However, I thought the discussion here was in trying to find a smaller pc that might fit in a tight space.  Some cabinets do not allow for the heighth nor width of a regular ATX mobo and cards.  I recommended the Shuttle as they have a small footprint mobo.

Does anyone know of other products that are small?  maybe a smaller motherboard and smaller video cards and sound cards?  I know that my cocktail project is going to require something out of the ordinary.  A 19" monitor fills a classic cocktail cabinet.

[Howard_Casto]

Actually yeah... there is a dragon mb i saw that would fit the bill but there is a catch, only new technology allowed.  It has one agp and one pci and that's it.  No serial ports, no parallel ports, no nothing.  What it hs in place of this are 6 usb ports and 4 firewire ports.  It's considerably smaller than a normal mb due to the lack of slots, but probably isn't as small as those micro pcs.  

And yes the discussion was about pc's that could fit in a smaller space, but if the pc isn't any count then it's just a waste of money.  We tested several of these "micro" pc's and so far we never found one that was anywhere near as reliable as a full desktop machine.  Even the name brand one's (hp, compaq, sony)  weren't any count.  And this is with the crappy performance issues aside.   They are kind of like lemon cars.  They run real great in the showroom but once you get it home things start to pop up.

I'm just giving you fair warning.  If you get one of these machines then you will most likely be disappointed.  

[Lilwolf]

Integrated video is getting better... but I wouldn't ever get it for a home pc.

I swap video cards twice as often as motherboard/processors on average.

but they are getting MUCH better then they used to be.  The Geforce4go is better then my current one, and will be good for a while.  When the ATI one comes out it will be great...  But designed for notebooks

btw, I deal with them for work all the time.  We sell embedded computers that have crappiers video then tridents...  So I have some reference points.

but if you don't NEED intergrated video... don't get it.  Sucks for home systems.

but not that bad for a cabinet... since mame doesn't care about it other then hwstretching.  So for a mini cabinet, it might make sense.

btw, it was to expensive also.  Not excessively, but still expensive.

For a mini-cabinet, I would probably just go get an outdated notebook and expect to swap it out later if you want to run faster games.

[Howard_Casto]

Beware!  The most disasterous failures of all the micro pc lines (the hp micro pc's) used a via-based motherboard.  They would run fine for weeks and then mysteriously shut down and never power on again!  Also we had issues with the powe supplies regardless, but since they were hp, it might not be an issue in this case.  

[HeadRusch]

AGain, I must chime in here:  If you want to run modern mame, just get a
Micro-ATX motherboard, an audio card and a video card, and find a creative
way to get it into the bottom or side of a coctail.

Those mini-PC's are great for running 4 year old technology, but why spend the money to play DIG DUG and Pac-Man when youc an spend 1/2 as much and play every modern mame game?

I understand the dilemma to "go small"...but again......right now the small stuff isn't worth it, IMHO.