Super Hack Project

[Searcher7]

I'd like the option of playing just about any game(in single player only), and assume that a minimum of three hacks would be neccessary to accomplish this.(But correct me if I'm worng).

Can anyone advise me on what would be considered the best three hacks for this project?

I was thinking that I'd need to hack an analog control, a 49-way control, and a mouse.

If anyone can expand on this, and recommend specific hacks, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks a lot.

Darren

[anthonylitz]

I am missing the real question I guess.....  explain the question a little more.

If you want to play almost any game single player then simply make a control panel with one set of buttons and joysticks, ect.

Also what/ why do have to hack these items? Again I don't understand what your problem is, help me help you

Anthony

[Searcher7]

The idea is to have the option of playing(in single player mode) *any* game that uses analog controls, digital controls-(Any 4-way to 49-way joysticks), the X Y axis, or a combination of the above, using a single control panel (that will have swappable tops).

I already designed something like this for the arcade platform(my Joust cabinet).

Thanks.

Darren

[Searcher7]

Okay, is it possible with some creative wiring to combine a "Advanced Gravis Analog Joystick", and a mouse to get controls for virtually every game?(I assume that the Gravis uses the Joystick port).

Thanks.

Darren

[Kremmit]

If I understand you, you want to play everything with a PC joystick.  A PC joystick won't play spinner games, trackball games, driving games, rotary joystick games, shooting games...

If you mean just joystick games, then yes you can play just about all of them with a PC stick- but the feel will be all wrong.  PC sticks feel really loose, and move a long way in every direction, which is not the way real arcade sticks feel.  It makes a difference in how well most games will play.

But maybe I'm not understanding you right, you mention a control panel with "swappable tops".  So maybe you want to be able to swap in different controllers, and the PC stick is just one of them. If that's the case, you should check out Doc's Modular control panel:  http://www.beersmith.com/mame/

[Searcher7]

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm just concerned about what PCBs I'll need to hack in order for me to play *any* game(in single player mode).

Thanks.

Darren

[paigeoliver]

It isn't possible to get EVERY game in single player mode on a single panel, there are too many custom control types. Like the 4x2-way joysticks on Wizard of Wor, or the 3 DIFFERENT types of twisty sticks, and MANY MANY others.

[Kremmit]

I think you misunderstood me.

I'm just concerned about what PCBs I'll need to hack in order for me to play *any* game(in single player mode).

Thanks.

Darren

Well, if I misunderstood you before, I sure hope I'm misunderstanding you now.  Now it sounds like you want to hack game PCBs to play every single game there is?  Like, you want to take the game board from a Scramble and hack it somehow to play 4000+ other games too?  (You can run anything on Scramble hardware.    )

Really, I'm sure that's not what you mean, but that's what it sounds like.  We need clarification here.

[Searcher7]

I'm going to have to make another attempt at explaining this.

Let's make believe you have every MAME game, and wanted to play any of them with the exact same response and feel of the original controls of each game.

***How many and what specific PCB hacks(from inputs and controllers) would you need to get it done?

The hacks of course have to work together in whatever combination is needed for any of the games you want to play.(Don't worry about the actual controls themselves).

Thanks.

Darren

[paigeoliver]

Very few original controllers require ANY hacks. There are commercial encoders/adaptors available for essentially every arcade controller around, with a few exceptions, and there are no hacks available for the exceptions.

Exceptions include.
Arcade light guns.
All movement sensors (I don't think mame supports any of these games anyway).

But, to interface all posible controls then you will need.

AKI - Analog Kontrol Interface
SJC - Simple joystick connector (For 49-way sticks)
Druin's rotary interface
I-Pac or Keywhiz.
Opti-Pac

[Kremmit]

Agreed- with those you can interface anything. 

I will add:

• You will probably want an Ipac4, since you'll be wanting a lot of inputs from your keyboard encoder. 
• 1 Opti-Pac should do, unless you can find a reason to use more than 4 optical axes at once.
• You'll probably need multiple SJCs, since each one only interfaces 1 49-way stick.
• I think 1 AKI is enough, unless there's a game I'm not thinking of that would requre more than 5 analog axes at one time.
• 1 Druin should do, as I don't think any games use more than 2 rotary sticks.

You say you've already done this on your Joust cab?  Got any pictures or a web site?  I'd like to see how you set it up.

[Kremmit]

Oops- I just re-read your earlier post.. you said you only need single player mode.  So, ignore the above. 

If you really only need one player, then you will only need one SJC. Also probably won't need to get an I-Pac4; a standard I-Pac2 or Keywiz would be fine.  In fact, you could probably replace both the Opti-Pac and the I-Pac/Keywiz with the Mini-Pac, and save some $$.

links:
http://dave.bit2000.com/aki.html
http://dave.bit2000.com/sjc.html
http://www.ultimarc.com/ipac1.html
http://www.ultimarc.com/optipac1.html
http://www.ultimarc.com/minipac.html
http://www.groovygamegear.com/Page5.html
http://members.rogers.com/druins22/ls30/

[Searcher7]

I still don't think anyone understands.

I'll guess I'll have to just start by hacking a Sidewinder, an Advanced Gravis Analog Joystick(unless I can find an analog with more buttons), and a mouse to see how many games I can cover.

Thanks anyway.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Gunstar Hero]

Dude.

I gotta see the controller that will play "any" MAME game with authentic controls and arcade feel.

Be sure you work in the little springy passing sticks for Quarterback!

[paigeoliver]

If no one understands why don't you spell it out more clearly?

Do you want to see if you can do it all with hacks and not use any real interfaces?

Well in that case say goodbye to the 49-ways.

[Kremmit]

Also goodbye to mechanical rotary games that don't work with MAME Analog+ direct connect.  (including Ikari Warriors!)

[Searcher7]

I see.

So what you are both saying is that there are no Rotary or 49-way controls already on the market that can be hacked into a home made control panel.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[Kremmit]

You can make the games playable, but you cannot get the authentic feel without using real arcade controls.  There are no hacks to control a 49-way or a mechanical rotary, short of building your own circuit to control them, which is exactly what Druin & Dave have already done for the rest of us when they built the Druin's Interface and the SJC. 

If you are dying to use an all-hack system, and are willing to sacrifice the authentic feel,  here's what you need:

You can use a PC analog stick to play 49-way games- the feel is off, because pc joysticks tend to be very loose.  Some people are perfectly happy with this, you might be too.  There are countless examples of people mounting PC Analog sticks in their panel.  You could even hack an arcade balltop handle onto one if you wanted.

Rotary joystick-  For the real mechanical rotary feel, you're out of luck, but one of these will add optical rotary control to an arcade joystick:
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=1%3baction=display%3bthreadid=25276
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php?board=10%3baction=display%3bthreadid=20018%3bstart=0
If using an arcade stick is verboten, then I guess you could modify one of these hacks to go on the bottom of that PC analog stick.

You can build your own spinner (Tempest, Arkanoid, etc.)- do a search for "Nasty Spinner".  Same principal for a steering wheel, just put a steering wheel on top instead of a knob.

Pedals- Use PC pedals.   If you want, you can hack a more realistic set of pedals to the electronis from the PC set.

Buttons, digital joystick- You can do a keyboard hack- check the faq for info on how to do one of these.  If using arcade sticks is verboten, you'll have to settle for a PC stick or gamepad in place of your 4-way & 8-way sticks.  Feel is wrong again.

Light gun-  No hacks here.  You could buy an Act-Labs light gun and use it right out of the box.  The model for TVs is still available, but the VGA model is discontinued.

That should cover most games.

[Searcher7]

You misunderstood again...(And I have no idea what those two links were that you posted).

There are controls that one can go into a store and buy. You can plug them into one's PC, and use with MAME.(Microsoft Sidewinder is one example).

The PCBs inside can be taken out and put in a homemade control panel that has controls more conducive to what a player would want to use.

PCBs like this are what I'm interested in.

I don't need info on how to make a homebuilt control panel. I have a lot of original arcade controls that I can use in a homebuilt control panel.

I don't need info on third party interfaces(outside of the PCBs taken out of the controls I mentioned above).

And I'm trying to stay away from the keyboard because of the ghosting issue associated with them.

I know I'll need a mouse(so I can play games like Missle Command and Millipede). Now since I'm told that there are no controls that can be hacked for Time Soldiers(Rotary) or Sinistar(49-way), and of course games that use light guns, I still need to find out what other hacks I can do to cover the other games. ie: Analog, and all 4-way and 8-way games.(I think that covers everything).

Thanks.

Darren

[NIVO]

I understand what u mean(i hope). I beleive you want to hack some type(s) of pc controllers and wire them to a arcade stick and buttons to be able to play almost anything single player. Yes this is possible, albeit far from being able to play everygame. As stated above by several posts their are just too many different controls out there, that your hack couldnt possibly duplicate in order to play correctly. And as far as analogue, unless im mistaken, I dont beleive their are too many successful instances in which folks have gotten these to work flawlessy. Im not saying no one has, but its a tricky science to get these to function the way you wish. You might be better off just using an ipac, setting up joys and buttons, and then getting a track ball/spinner for another panel(swappable as you stated). Unless of course your trying to keep your costs down, then all these factors dont apply here. Again, my apologies if i misunderstood your posts. I too am trying to decipher what you mean. It can be difficult to put into words what your thoughts are. Just dont get frustrated, we can help if we can get on the same page here. Good Luck.

[stevejt]

Druins rotary interface works for mechanical rotary joysticks.  For games like time soldiers, ikari warriors, etc.

Why do you want to hack a sidewinder?  I am guessing you think it would be easiest to have swappable panels all use the joystick port?

Steve

[stevejt]

By the way...  Did you read the FAQs on the board?  I think if you read them, you might not think you have to hack everything.

[Kremmit]

SteveJT:  I think he knows about the Druin's, and all the other interfaces, but wants to do it the hard way, either for fun or to save $$.

Searcher7: 

You can hack a digital gamepad for your 2/4/8 way joysticks & buttons if you don't want to do a keyboard hack.  I'd find one with the most buttons on it you can.

Search for Dual Strike hack, that seems to be the hack method of choice to interface analog controls.  (analog joysticks, 270 degree steering wheels, potentiometer based pedals and paddles, etc.)

Search for Mouse hack to see how to interface a spinner, 360 degree steering wheel, trackball, etc by hacking a mouse.
 
And here are those links again, I dunno how they got messed up
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,20018.0.html
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,25276.0.html

They're links to hacks people have done to get rotary functions added to 8-way sticks.  Both use a Mouse hack, but go about it in different ways.  They don't feel the same as the original mechanical rotary sticks, but it's the best you can do if you don't want to use the Druin's board.

Hope I'm finally helping!

[Searcher7]

Now I think you understand.

Analog: "Dual Strike hack"

Digital: "digital gamepad"(Any names?).

XY: Mouse Hack

(And Rotary and 49-way games are out).

***What about gamepads that allow analog and digital?(ie: Thrustmaster Phazer Pad).

Also, I still know little about MAME, and was wondering what the limits were on receiving inputs from multiple ports.

I guess that covers it.

Thanks a lot.

Darren

[Kremmit]

No special names on digital gamepads, take yer pick.

If you want to go for an analog + digital pad, it should be do-able, but I've yet to see anybody post an example (which doesn't mean nobody's done it!).  Give it a try!  Then post your results, with pics, to help others.   

And rotary games are not all the way out, if you try something like what you see in those links I re-posted.  I read where somebody hacked the scroll wheel (z-axis) of their mouse to a joystick hack like those.  If you're gonna hack the x & y axes anyway...

As for limits to the MAME software, I'm really out of my depth there.  I know MAME's happy to read ps/2 inputs, serial inputs, gameport inputs, and USB inputs, but don't have a clue as to how many of each you can have.  I'd post in the Software Forum for more on that, as that's where the bitheads hang out.

[Searcher7]

As for Rotary or any other game. As I mentioned, I'll be using actual arcade controls(originally installed on machines). So if I cannot use the Rotary joysticks I have, then I won't bother playing Rotary games.

I'm working on a quickswap system simular to one of my arcade machines, where I can just swap control panel tops in seconds.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

[paigeoliver]

Most "Analog" gamepads are not true analog but are instead hall effect analog, something similar (but different) to 49-way, or are something else that can't simply take the signal from a pot based arcade control.

Pot based arcade controls are actually cake to deal with, replace the pots with the ones out of a cheapo analog PC joystick and you will be fine.

[Searcher7]

Thanks.

If anyone knows the name of any suitable analog controls, please let me know.(I want to build a special CP for Star Wars).

Thanks.

Darren

[Kremmit]

Microsoft Dual Strike. 

[Searcher7]

Okay.

I'm going to first try a couple of analog/digital combo units I came across to see how they work out.

If anyone here has done this before, and was successful, please let me know who.

Thanks a lot.

Darren

[Mark70]

Would I be wrong in saying it would be a waste of time to try and include analog controls since mame doesn't really truly support analog?  Doesn't it take analog input and just convert it to repeated digital input?

I don't know.

I play many mame games on my pc with a Wingman Digital Extreme.  If you hacked it, you'd have 4 axis, and 15 buttons.  I haven't found occasion to use more than that so far and I've played about 100 different games.

This could potentially give you
-a track ball using the z and throttle axis
-two joystick axis (I don't know what the guts look like but in windows calibration it will report any position.  I don't know if it's more complicated than a combination of the info from two axis, or if it's a 360 degree thing.)
-15 arcade buttons from seven joystick buttons and an 8 position hat switch.

Again, I've never been inside one of these, so I can't say how hard or easy it would be to hack, but that's the potenital and you can pick them up from ebay for anywhere from 10 to 20 bucks.