Light guns FAQ?

[Florp]

Hi guys. Is there a up-to-date FAQ regarding lightguns and MAME? I'm interested in adding a pair of guns to my cabinet with an arcade monitor, but much of the info I've found seems to be outdated (i.e., ActLabs no longer makes light guns for monitors?).

What's the State of the Lightgun Union out there?

Thanks,

Scott

[ErikRuud]

There isn't a FAQ that I know of.

The state of the union is this:

The Act Labs gun for monitors is no longer available, except maybe through Ebay at high prices.  They may bring it back, or they may bring out a new gun.  No one knows for sure.  Go to the Act labs site and get on the wish list!

The Lik-Sang PC Virtual Gun appears to be discontinued also, but is stil available from some vendors.

The Lik-Sang Bio Gun is still available, but is considered to be the worst choice.

[Florp]

Thanks for the summary, Erik.

What about adapting actual arcade lightguns to a PC? Happ sells a couple of them, including a really cool-lookin' "Recoil Gun". Has anyone had success with this?

-Scott

[NoOne=NBA=]

Has anyone had success with this?

No.
The light gun is only PART of the system.
The rest of the system is the interface.
In the case of the Act-labs, it's the box that sits between the monitor/gun and USB port/gun.
In the case of arcade games, it's contained on the actual boards of the individual game.

[Silver]

What about adapting actual arcade lightguns to a PC?

There was some talk on this a while back re the happs unit - if I recall someone was trying to buy a unit from happs to test/write a driver. No idea where this is at now.

A far more promising point - for the future anyway - was that Andy Warne (he of IPAC/Optipac fame) posted a few weeks back saying he was planning to look into the Namco light gun interface. Promising because while more complex/expensive (it uses several sensors placed round the screen instead of a "white-blanking" approach) it is very accurate once calibrated (in the arcades anyway) and can track a guns position at all times, not just when they fire (this is an issue when trying to use light guns for games like T2 that actually used a joystick). This would allow it to be used *perfectly* for all light gun games that I am aware of.

I was planning to email Andy in the New year and ask if he still has plans to pursue this.  If so I personally intend to get hold of a set. In fact I'm tempted to do so anyway and post them to Andy to work on if he doesn't have any....

Andy?

[romperwomb]

Go to the Act labs site and get on the wish list!

When I joined this wish list, I also wished they would make the gun a bit more uhhm manly.  I've seen tampon applicators that are more masculine!   

[stevodevo]

Any update on this??  Any word from Andy at Ultimarc?

[vartech]

www. erealgames.com is working on a wireless pc version of there G1 gun for Mays E3 show.  It uses a camera mounted on top of the screen to track the gun movement, which would mean it would not matter screen type LCD, Plasma, Arcade monitor, tv or CRT all would work.

[Daniel270]

That model looks like it'll do the job... once it's available for PC use.. so far, only consoles (according to the site)

[Minwah]

That model looks like it'll do the job... once it's available for PC use.. so far, only consoles (according to the site)

Yep I emailed them last week and they said they hoped the PC version would be ready for E3 in May.

[clanggedin]

I'm planning on going to E3 in May. I'll post a little review on it while I'm there.

[vartech]

I'm planning on going to E3 in May. I'll post a little review on it while I'm there.

When you go ask if the PC version will also allow use of there other peripherals they working on like boxing gloves and golf clubs etc.  I think if it does this will add a whole other aspect to MAME gaming.

[brandon]

wow.. that would be awesome.. so how exactly does the console version work? Does the console see it as a joystick?

[Lilwolf]

Hopefully it will be solvable with an analog+ type software solution...

but probably based on the gun sends data to sensors above / around the monitor... And it can't tell the difference between two guns.

but if you get machine gun capablities... I'm buying one.

[Silver]

but if you get machine gun capablities... I'm buying one.

That is the huge advantage it would suggest due to the constant tracking. I just wish they used 2 or more sensors as I think accuracy is going to be a shortfall with only 1 sensor. The problem will be small movements of where the gun is held - such as adjusting you stance - may throw the calibration off.....

Hope I'm wrong though.

[fogman]

Did we get a response on whether you could use a PS-2 to USB adapter.

[Lilwolf]

I would wait since they are looking at a pc release.

and lightguns / special controllers usually don't work with the XXX->usb connectors.

[ErikRuud]

The G1 gun gas two emitters on the gun and a single camera that sits above the screen.

According to there FAQ, changing your shooting style can throw the calibration off. http://www.erealgames.com/support/support_5.htm

[menace]

my arms get tired holding the little act albs gun for lengthy periods--i can't imagine lugging that beast for long.

[jjaffa]

Hi All,

My name is Jonathan Jaffa, I'm Managing Director of eReal Games UK. I was just browsing and noticed you have been chatting about the G1 Light Gun. So I thought I would fill in the missing gaps for you.

PC Version
We are talking to Sega at the moment about bundling possiblilites for the G1 as they are due to launch House of the Dead III for the PC in a couple of weeks. We will only develop a PC version of the light gun if there is enough demand. I am not completely clued up with the world of MAME. Maybe one of you guys could fill me in. If I felt there was enough people out there that wanted the PC version we would definately develop it this year. The PC version of the light gun will also be smaller because you don't need to be so far away from the screen. The current light gun is developed for use up to 12 feet away and is capable of being used on Projected images larger than a cinema screen.

HOW IT WORKS
The G1 system works by tracking 2 infra-red LED's that are positioned at 2 points on the light gun itself. The camera does all the magic. It is incredibly sophisticated and calculates the position of the light gun relative to your original calibration point. The calibration process can be adjusted at any point before or during game play and only takes 3 seconds. So even if you do change position its no problem. One of you mentioned that you get sore shoulders when playing for a short while. We discovered this was a real issue and we actively promote that you don't use the gun in a Military Down-the-Barrel shooting position. There is no need to use a gun like this anyway, your brain is capable of calculating the position of your target relative to your position with out accurate sighting. So we recommend that you calibrate and then continue playing games from a relaxed position. After a short while you soon get used to it and realise it is much better, especially when you play a game for 30 mins or so.

2 PLAYER G1
We are actually developing the 2 player version at the moment and hope to launch it in time for E3. We are still discussing whether we will make it 1 gun that is switchable or have 2 separate guns.

So....I hope this info is helpful to you, if any of you have any other comments, please let me know, you can email me direct on jjaffa@erealgames.com.

Happy Shooting.

[fogman]

These guys seem really interested, which is very good news for us!  I had sent them the following and their response follows.  So, we need to get people to post here (since they are obviously following this thread, to let them know what the demand is.  I hope Kevin reads this and posts something on Retroblast, since the more feedback, the better the chances of getting something!

And thanks Jonathan for posting!

My email:
I have a Mame box with a PC and was interested in knowing if the G1 has been tested using an X-Box or PS2 to USB connector and if this works.  If not, do you know why, because I am sure there are many people in the Mame community who would like to take a shot at writing a driver.
 
I understand that you may be coming out with a PC version of the gun and was would like to know if you have an ETA.


Response:
Thanks for your mail. We are checking with our development team to find out more. Sorry for the delay, we will try to give you an answer by end of this week.
 
We are very interested in writing a Mame driver, we really appreciate your suggestion and look forward to talking with you about this later.
 
Thanks again.
 
eRealGames Info Team.   

[sofakng]

I've sent them an e-mailing letting them know I'm very interested in a PC version of their lightgun.  I'd recommend everybody else who is interested do the same thing so that they will see the high interest rate and perhaps start developing the gun...

- Sofa

[Taborious]

I too sent an email over...

[ErikRuud]

Johnathan Jaffa,

Thanks for posting here in our forum, and answering some of our questions.

I do not know how many MAME user's there are, but you are bound to get a lot of responses about the G1 gun.

If the PC version of the G1 looks like a mouse to the operating system, it should work well with MAME.

[Silver]

Has anyone seen any reviews of the gun?

I'd love some 1st hand opinions on accuracy....

[fogman]

bump

[Lilwolf]

Erik.. watch for what you wish for.

DONT DO STANDARD MOUSE CALLS.  If you do it will not work with mame.

There is joystick (%of screen) this works well for mame.

Then there is mouse commands... If you use relational moves (move left 2 inches) it will not work well.  If you touch your mouse while playing you will loose your calibration.

It needs to be move to x,y... Then it will work well with mame.

This is why mame has a -lightgun setting and a -mouse setting.

[Minwah]

I hope Kevin reads this and posts something on Retroblast, since the more feedback, the better the chances of getting something!

I've mailed Kev with a heads-up, I'm sure he'll be interested in this.

For the record I'm very interested in this one too - lets hope it gets the go-ahead...

[ErikRuud]

I bow to the master.

Maybe you should send Jonathan an email as well.

[KevSteele]

(Stumbles in)

Hey, cool! I'll have to post a news item about this and urge people to write in for the PC version!

Sorry for not visiting more often - just been incredibly busy the last couple of months...

(Stumbles back out)

[MameMaster!]

FYI-

[fogman]

In yet another showing that the G1 team is not only responsive, but interested, I received the following:

G1 has not been tested using an X-Box or PS2 to USB connector. This is only due to our limited resources. Actually, G1 contains a chip for USB, and it is therefore not difficult to support USB directly. All we need to do is to support MANE for PC. But it takes time to develop, to test and to certify. Please be patient.
 
Best regards,
 
eRealGames, Info team.

[Silver]

Thats quite interesting (althuogh not surprising as a lot of Xbox stuff is usb type I believe....)

Also due to the way this gun system works (cameras/infrared) - ie NOT reliant or interupting the video signal - I actually think it would be possible to 'hack' to work on a PC. I'm not suggesting its necessary as it looks like they are developing the PC version themselves, but if this fell through (hope not) I reckon this would be FAR easier than a 'typical' console gun. All you need to know/decipher is how the positional information is passed from the gun....

[Silver]

As an update to the above, I've read a review of the Xbox version of the G1 Gen where they state that it actually has an Xbox and PC-USB connecter - just no drivers for the PC...

Anyone have one of these to confirm? Normally the issue with Xbox guns is that they use the "extra yellow wire" in the interface connections (which is otherwise a USB plug).

[fredster]

Glad I sold my ActLabs gun about a month ago.

Got $171 including shipping 

[stevodevo]

Any updates on this? or are we all just waiting for E3?

[M3talhead]

I'm wating for E3 myself.

[jelwell]

Any updates on this? or are we all just waiting for E3?

me too. Come on MAY!
Joseph Elwell.

[ripzone]

I too sent an email to them!

I hope they develop it.

Also would it be easy to switch the case to a real arcade gun?

[ErikRuud]

I finaly found the correct site again, it has these pictures of the RGT G1 in use.

http://gaming.engadget.com/entry/0253827737214684/

As you can see, it is larger than a regular hand gun but not too huge.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I think I may have finally figured out why everyone talks about how terrible the accuracy is on the Act-Labs guns, in spite of the fact that BOTH of mine shoot almost dead-on.

Do you guys actually AIM the dang things?

-------------------------------------------------------

In the first picture, the guy is hip shooting--which, if you've ever shot a REAL gun is terribly inaccurate.

In the second, he is not bracing the gun with his off hand, which leads to shots being pulled off to the side when firing quickly.

A gun is only as accurate as the person shooting it.

[NoOne=NBA=]

And HERE is a very accurate gun system, if somebody wants to attempt a really expensive hack.

You can even set it up to use REAL guns.

It uses a camera to detect a red laser spot on the screen that is sent out of the barrel of the gun.
It will accurately track EVERY shot, when calibrated properly, and is not subject to the angle of the shot like the other systems.

The camera basically rides on top of the projector, and views the screen during the game.
When it detects the brighter red light of the laser beam, it calculates the location based on the original calibration.
As long as the screen/projector/camera do not move in relation to each other, the shots will register from any angle.

We had two of them set up at a wildlife banquet I went to last weekend, and were "helping out" the younger kids on the other system accurately, with a second gun, from about the length of a basketball court.

[jelwell]

I think I may have finally figured out why everyone talks about how terrible the accuracy is on the Act-Labs guns, in spite of the fact that BOTH of mine shoot almost dead-on.

Do you guys actually AIM the dang things?
...
A gun is only as accurate as the person shooting it.

Throw down! I've used the Act Labs guns and they're accurate. No offscreen reload makes them useless to me. I refuse to install something that is going to cause more questions than it solves. "How come I can't reload, your cabinet is broken, you suck". That's the standard line of bull that comes out of my friends' mouths when something doesn't work the way it's supposed to.

I'm holding my breath for a sensor based system like the namco system or this e1 thing. Partially so I can play positional joystick (POT) based games like Revolution X and Terminator 2 - which never actually used a light gun at all.
Joseph Elwell.

[NoOne=NBA=]

No offscreen reload makes them useless to me.

You can map the reload button to work with most of the games by using Analog+, and/or set an unlimited ammo cheat on some games.
You can just disable the games that you don't like the operation of, and use the rest.

You're missing out on alot of fun with all the Digital Leisure games, too.
(Mad Dog McRee, Last Bounty Hunter, etc...)

[Lilwolf]

Wow... a combination of the lasershot and the eyetoy idea might be great....

think of this..

get a cheap $2 laser pointer.  add it to a plastic gun..  trigger to point it start the laser.

next...

get the eyetoy type software to pickup the red laser on the screen.  Should be a  LOT easier then trying to figure out the shape of someones hand and if they are holding up one or two fingers.

Then you could probably find different color lasers, one per player....  might get more then just 2 pretty easy.

Anyway, might be a good cheap solution that would require little / no changes on the arcade machine itself. 

I REALLY like that this could be used across the room.

[ErikRuud]

The camera does not need to be attached to the gun.

It can be stationary.  It just needs to be able to see the screen.

It would be something like this: http://www.mpi-sb.mpg.de/~karni/presentermouse/report.pdf

Laser reflections off the monitor glass could be a problem.

[Lilwolf]

I'm not sure it would be...

because you could put the camera anywhere at any angle.

I think the reflection back might be hard on some.  but I don't have a glass bezel...

Anyway, I still think its an interesting idea.

[ErikRuud]

I gave that one a try.

I don't actually have a webcam at this point, but I do have three way to connect a camera to my cab.  I have a composite/s-video capture card, a firewire card and my Samsung camcorder can connect via USB.

Unfortunately, the laser tracker only seems to work with the USB input.  For some reason the USB driver for my camcorder only supports 15 fps.

I did get it to track the laser dot, but it is kind of jittery because of the 15fps limit.

It also crashed when I started MAME while it was running.

I don't have a glass bezel either, but the face iof my monitor is glass, so there is one spot where the laser reflects back at me.