Article on state of Emulation from business/copyright perspective

[RayB]

Here is an interesting read on emulation, it's current impact on the games business, and companies are doing about it, or what they can and should do about it. Also delves into the inherent copyright issues...

Sorry, I posted this before reading it. The article is actually fairly BIASED. It's written by lawyers and I think they are trying to stir up game manufacturers to act in the same way as the RIAA and MPAA. The article has more than a couple statements that are unjustified (like lost sales due to N64 game ROM pirating?)

http://www.law.northwestern.edu/journals/njtip/v2/n2/3/

[Hoagie_one]

too much reading

[GGKoul]

Good read...  I never knew this was the price breakdown for video games.

[fredster]

A very good read.

"The preservation argument, however, is relatively weak, since only copyright holders can determine whether they wish their software to be archived. Even copyrights of games produced by companies that have gone out of business retain their value for the length of the statutory period.57 As to the question of whether or not emulators infringe on intellectual property, the legal aspects remain murky.58"

It's just a matter of time until they come after mame.

[RayB]

Keep in mind it's written from the perspective of "law and order". That means businesses come first, and screw what the people think should be fair and right etc.

It pisses me off how they searched for N64 games, found 293 ROMs on a Peer to Peer network, and then calculated that to mean 293 x $39 = over 10 grand in lost sales. Ridiculous. What do ROMs available NOW have to do with with sales of an ancient DEAD console?! If anyone's buying N64 games right now, it's used for $10 each, and that money doesn't cause losses to Nintendo, it causes lost sales to used game stores. Many other parts of this whitepaper lack the proper context.

[mahuti]

Some companies don't like the ability to sell used games either.

[Alpha17X]

Good read...  I never knew this was the price breakdown for video games.

Hahahahahahah.. that's a bit off.    just a bit. 

[Stormy151]

You've got to love lawyers.

"Hey!  You guys are getting ripped off!  You should SUE somebody!  And...why...I just HAPPEN to be a lawyer!  How convienient!"

Is the unemployment rate for lawyers that high where they need to create work for themselves? lol

[TalkingOctopus]

I didn't think it was a very good article.  However, overall, I'd say it is bad for emulation to get this kind of attention.

Hahahahahahah.. that's a bit off.

[LordDamo]

Hmmmmm - seems like someones trying to make some work for themself here. A few questions spring to mind though. Just what is the  length of the "statutory period"? Is it the same for all copyrighted games? Once this period is over, do they need to be re-copyrighted? If they are not, do they then become public domain?

[Silver]

I think console companys would mainly aim to hit people/companies who have an obvious direct effect on current sales.

For example, people selling modchips for "backup" purposes on playstations or Cartridge copiers on Snes/N64 - but only during the systems hayday. Here there were companies manufacturing professional looking hardware to copy games that was available when the consoles were retailing for $$$.

The legal point of view may not change over time, but the attractiveness of expensive lawsuits does. Who would spend money on closing down emulators for systems like NES, SNES, Saturn etc....etc... I do not know of any way that I can play these games and give money to the legal owners.

What I suspect could happen is that the companies start taking advantage of the popularity of the scene. Think "Official" emulators and downloading NES rom's off Nintendo's website etc...etc... At the moment more recent systems using DVD' sized games somewhat stretch the current broadband technology (at least where I am) - although look at Half-life 2 and Steam: Huge games over offical downloads.

Just some thoughts.

[nipsmg]

The thing that aggrivates the hell out of me is the "lost revenue" argument that the RIAA and MPAA and anyone uses when it comes to piracy.


User x downloaded 300 N64 games at $60 a piece.
We lost $18,000 in revenue.

However, that's assuming that User x would actually have gone out and bought all 300 games, which is 99.9% of the time NOT TRUE.  Granted piracy is wrong, but they fudge statistics like that and use them to justify passing laws like the DMCA (Da Most Crappy ActeverpassedinUShistory).

[hulkster]

However, that's assuming that User x would actually have gone out and bought all 300 games, which is 99.9% of the time NOT TRUE.

[Stormy151]

The thing that aggrivates the hell out of me is the "lost revenue" argument that the RIAA and MPAA and anyone uses when it comes to piracy.

User x downloaded 300 N64 games at $60 a piece.
We lost $18,000 in revenue.

However, that's assuming that User x would actually have gone out and bought all 300 games, which is 99.9% of the time NOT TRUE.

[LordDamo]

However, there is a LOT of piracy going on for current games. I couldn't tell you how many times I've heard, "Dude, you gotta get a mod chip! I just rent games and burn them on my DVD burner at home..."

Yep, thats  piracy at its best. Its the mod chippers that they should go after. And the only way is through the console itself. They designed it, and ppl worked out how to mod it. Its just human nature.

THAT they should pursue. IMO, they should leave the classic emulation community alone, unless someone is making a profit. OR, better yet- make the ROMS availiable. Can you imagine a website where you could get ROMS for .99 cents, like Itunes? Sweet....

This I think would be a bad idea. With this kind of site out there, and it being the only LEGAL way of obtaining rom's would just send the distrobution of roms underground. I have a full set I got from a circle of rom burners. I would, if this kind of thing went on, be up the preverbial ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- creek with no paddle.

And, IMHO, the "keeping a back-up copy" argument isn't so weak. For ppl that actually own a PCB for the roms they use. The ability to make a backup copy is a usual part of the standard EULA. If the orgional copy of the software is damaged and becomes un-useable, does that then negate the users right to use the software? Thats like saying if your car breaks down your not aloud to get it fixed. Sure you cant "fix" a dead PCB, but I just used this as an example to illistrate a point.

I remember a few years ago the music industry tried to stop stores from selling used CD's for that very reason.  They were upset they weren't getting a piece.

This is just penny pinching and grasping at straws.

Just my 75

[deadmoney5]

Its the mod chippers that they should go after

This isn't illegal, though..

The only thing they can really go after is people who SELL burned games.....

How are they going to go after Johnny down the street who goes to Blockbuster and rents a game and then burns it in the privacy of his own home?  Not possible...

[LordDamo]

my thought here is that should work on a way to make them un-modable (is that a word? It is now). If they want ppl to stop pirating console games, they they need to work on ways to stop ppl from modding there consoles.

But, where there is a will, there is a way.

Old roms for prog's like mame are just too old for ppl to really worry about. Its not like they can re-release them to make some more profit. Not many ppl would be wanting to pump coins into a galaga machine unless they were "from the day". By this I mean the older generation, who most likely in the arcade anyway.

Just a thought.

Basically waht im tring to say is that if its still for sale or rent, its no go. If not, then what does it matter???

[paigeoliver]

standard EULA

What EULA? I am up to 100 PCBS and 10 or so complete dedicated cabinets, many of which came with paperwork. None came with an End User License Agreement of any sort.

Suggesting it came with one is going back in time and changing what happened.

You ever buy a hammer?

Arcade games were sold like hammers, you paid the money and they handed you the machine, a service manual, and a warranty card. No end user license agreement was included. When you bought the sucker you bought the sucker it was yours.

This is a VERY important detail.

[Crazy Cooter]

That is a very important detail.  I never thought of it like that.

[Patent Doc]

OK guys Keep the flame thowers down for this one.  I'd hate to get permanently burned due to my occupation, but I'm gonna give you guys a little insight to me before I talk. 

OK, here it goes.  I'm a patent attorney.  This should be somewhat obvious from my name.  Before anyone asks, I prepare and prosecute biotech patents (I have a PhD in microbiology/immunology), I did not have anything to do with the legal wrangling behind the RIAA and now the MPAA suits...though I know several attorneys who are involved. 

Let me go out there and say this...in the current state of copyright law, copyrights last 70 years, are transferrable and renewable.  They also don't expire simply because a company went belly up.  If that company was purchased, the purchaser also likely purchased the intellectual property rights.  The rights could also still be held by the author.  Regardless the company that once held them may not own them now, but somebody probably does. Like it or not, when you purchase a CD, DVD, book, what you purchase is not the content, but the righ to use the content for yourself...no selling, no renting, just personal use.  The Fair use doctrine provides for a single copy o be made for archival purposes.  However, it is not clear if this will apply to copies of games.  Best bet is that it won't, but anyone that says tey know for sure is full of it, because the courts have not decided on this...and by the way, the CD cases though related can be distinguished so they may not be controlling. Thus, if you copy a game, even if you own the board, you are probably stealing.  Hey it affects me too, I can't afford to purchase everygame out there and god knows I love the access to my past that MAME provides.  I justify my actions, becasue the law isn't clear and I thnk that ultimately, MAMErs would prevail, though it is likely this will never become a battle.  Most of the fight for MPAA and the like is person-to-person file sharing.  If you are a burner, this could also be a problem.  If you only purchased from a burner, I bt they will never come after you, but that doesn't mean it's ok to have the games.

Now about the article first thing to remember is this is a law review article.  It is likely written by some kid in his second maybe third year of law school with no REAL legal experience.  The author merrely looked for cases and other articles on what he/she thought was an equivalent to the RIAA and MPAA battle, wih little understanding of what is actually bing emulated or the issues involved.  Most law schools (Northwestern included) don't have more than maybe two classes dealing with intellectual property.  This article is hardly controlling authority or realy even persuasive.  This guys just riding the coat tails of what he perceives is sexy IP issues.   

Now as far as the argument about I would have never purchased this game so it isn't lost revenue.  But you did "steal" it, right.  So, wouldn't that have been a purchse otherwise?  Yes, I understand your point is really that if you weren't able to take it for free then you would never had purchased it and that wouldn't be lost revenue.  True enough..and I agree that amount seems a tad high, but do you have a better way of valuing lost revenue.  I mean if you asked everyone that pirated stuff, and got caught, I bet all of them would say "well, I wouldn't have purchased it if that was my only option." Particullarly if they were going to be find if the tie in to lost income was necessary.  Look, these companies are in a PR battle with the public and the courts, they need to show a loss to have a legal cause of action... and they have to show tey've been injured so the public doesn't view it as a big buy beating up joe america. 

OH crap, I just went on forever...sorry about tht...I guess my wife is right..I do talk to much....  Man I can be such a #$$.  Anyway, I know you guys are really into this issue...just don't give too much credence to a law review article.  I'll be happy to take any questions anyone has, but I must say I am by know way an expert in copyright...I don't mostly biotech patent stuff and I will NOT give legal advice...I don't want to lose my lisence for practicing in another state.

By the way ...for those who don't know it yet, the MPAA is going after movie pirates...this includes file sharing.

[Patent Doc]

God, I just read my post...I come across as such a F#%$*% no it all.  And I didn't even really say anything.  Please forgive the ramblings of an almost middle age jerk...I have a tendncy to go on about things and right now this is my only English outlet (I'm in Asia visiting my wife's family and I can barely say hello in anything but English so I'm desperate)

Patent Doc

[spocktwin]

   thanks for the post and the opinions Doc.  I have to admit that I wondered when I saw it was prepared at Northwestern if this was some kind of paper written by students.  Not that I critiqued it as you did but just a thought.  I know I may get a little flack about this but I do the Mame thing for the fun not the archival issue.  I am reliving a few (yeah right just a few) evenings in a bar playing galaga and pacman.  I hope they don't go after Mame because by and large I really like this community and the hobby it provides.  But if the entire scheme of things I would have to get rid of some of my roms as I can see where they would techincally call this stealing.  I have two young minds in this home and I want them to respect the people that work to produce these game. 
     At any rate thanks again Doc and have fun in Asia!

[saint]

Patent Doc - if it's possible without crossing the line into giving legal advice - I'm curious as to your opinion of what I wrote in my book about this issue.

==============

Are emulators legal? The ethics and laws behind obtaining ROMs

You

[saint]

The white area -- when you

[saint]

The grey area -- ROMs you own in other media

Aside from the white area in which clearly legal ROMs are available, there

[btoddkelley]

Hey Patent Doc, how would you feel about a time REASONABLE time limit on copyrights? As you know patents have a 20 year life, why not do something similiar with copyrights? (I'd go with 5-7 years)


Todd

[Patent Doc]

Hey Patent Doc, how would you feel about a time REASONABLE time limit on copyrights? As you know patents have a 20 year life, why not do something similiar with copyrights? (I'd go with 5-7 years)

I agree.  I'd love to see some type of reform, especially in electronic media, but the problem stems from written works and music...they are still viable many years after first publishing.  Take LOTR, that was written in the in the early mid part of the 1900's and brought in tons over the last years and didn't drop off in book sales probably ever. 

That being said, I hate the fact that this stuff can be willed to heirs and they can renew the copyright.  Basically, this allows for a copyright to exist 70yrs beyond the death of the author.  What's worse, a really good attorney can figure out a way to extend the lifetime even further.  I think a renewable system say for 15 years would be great.  However, make the cost like $1K-$10K to renew that way only those copyrights worth a damn will be renewed and free up things for the public to use ike old computer games, unpopular recordings, or unpopular books.  I mean, heck, we recognize 20years is sufficient for a patent and that'sfrom the filing date.  The useable patent term for a patent post grant for  drug is often times the only the last three years since it takes about 15years for the drug to make it through trials and the patent is often appled for a few years before that.  Seriously, why shoud a copyright last longer than a pharaceutical or some breakthrough in science? 

That being said 5-7 years would probably only fly for computer and electronic works where the viable lifespan is about that long before it is completely obsolete.

Patent Doc

[Patent Doc]

Patent Doc - if it's possible without crossing the line into giving legal advice - I'm curious as to your opinion of what I wrote in my book about this issue.

Saint

sorry for the interuption in replies .. I lost my connection and it took a while to get it back...oh well, it is  third world country...so I'm happy I can connect at all.  Regarding the section about copyright in your book, I actually think your comments are right on the money and as far as this cyber communitee is concerned, far more relevant than the NW law review article.  Though I've red the passage before, I read it a little more critically today.  I don't see anything out of line there.  I think you broke up the areas quite nicely, and if you're gonna stick your neck out, you were good to cover yourself, not only by letting everyone know you are not an atorney, and by taking the safe position with "grey" areas of copyright.  Basically, you either have been given permission (ex. , Roby Roto) own the board and are running the board on your cab, or bought the games from StarRoms, all others avenues are out.  The grey is accurate and I've stated my feelings on this, but I am not sure I'm gonna be right in the end, so take your own risk about owning PCB and then using the ROM as a "fair use" copy.  Don't make copies and say I said i was OK...I didn't.  I also agree that MAME should be OK, but companies have targetted emulators before.  As a general rule reverse engineering is favored in the US, but again until the court has ruled on a specific issue, it's anyones guess.

In all honesty, your synopsis of the state of the law is great and perfect for non-lawyer types.

Saint, by the way I LOVE your book.  Bought one for myself when it became available and have read it four times since.  I keep finding great stuff in there.  I purchased two more copies for Christmas presents to friends.  I can't wait for the sequal.

Patent Doc

[saint]

Thanks for the reply! (Disclaimer: I don't take it as legal advice, just a perspective). I've asked my brother in law (a law professor) for a similar perspective, but it's nice to get one from someone who's actually a member of the gaming community!

Cheers!

--- saint