IPAC4 or KE72?

[calicyco]

Hi,

I suppose this is a basic question, but here goes. I am starting to build a 4 player cab with spinner and trackball. The encoder is my biggest hurdle right now. Do I use the IPAC4 with its 56 inputs, or the KE72?

KEYBOARD ENCODER:

I was reading on at the ultimarc site about the IPAC4 and since it seems I will need approximately 56 inputs, I would be just at the limit of this board.

What concerns me, is the following from Ultimarc:

"The I-PAC4 has 56 inputs. All programmable and designated 4 joysticks, 8 buttons each plus coin 1,2,3,4 and start 1,2,3,4. Two of the inputs are assigned as shift keys to access two separate codes sets covering the player 1,2 and the player 3,4 inputs."

Does this shift mode here mean that I press a certain button, than press other buttons to select an alternate key stroke? I think this might be kind of funky and non-intuitive for certain users.

OPTICAL ENCODER:

There is the optipac, and the KE72 with the trackball interface. I plan on having one trackball, and one spinner. How do you use these two on a KE72? I know the optipac states that both are connected and it detects which one moves first and uses that one. How does the KE72 do it? Are both the spinner and the trackball live at the same time? How is the wiring done? The KE72 has a plug for the Happ trackball, what about the spinner? Do you splice into this connection?

As a side note, are there any games that use two trackballs or two spinners? I've seen some boards that have two of each.

Thanks!! This is my first post, as I'm about ready to begin this project. Right now I have everything I need except encoder and a cabinet. I plan on getting the CP done right then design the cab around that.

[Shape D.]

i'd go with the ipac 4,  set up would be eaisier and the shift function is assignable.  So you don't even have to use it if you don't want to.

[Tiger-Heli]

BTW, - http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm for reference (shameless plug) - now that that's out of the way.

Not to discredit the KE-72 (it's a excellent product if that's what you want)  . . .

KE-72 - $120
KE-72T - $140
I-PAC/4 - $69
I-PAC/2 - $43
Opti-PAC - $40

You could (and would be better off, IMHO) buying TWO I-PAC/4's and daisy-chaining them for 108-inputs (not that there are that many (107-key keyboard, if MAME recognizes WAKE and SLEEP, which I don't believe it does)).  You could also buy and daisy chain the I-PAC/4, I-PAC/2, and opti-pac and have 84-inputs, plus Two trackballs and 4 spinners for $152.

Not that I'm saying this is what you need or the best way to go, but it's way better than the Hagstrom.

I was reading on at the ultimarc site about the IPAC4 and since it seems I will need approximately 56 inputs, I would be just at the limit of this board.

Well, I cover this on my page as well, but you might explain to me how you are at the limit of the board.  Keep in mind there are NO 4-player arcade games that use more than 4-buttons per player. . .  (Console emulation is a different story, but if you even want this on your cab, you might be better served by having a couple of front USB ports and some plug-in gamepads).

Keep in mind you could share P1 and P2 Butttons 5-7 as additional inputs for P3 and P4, but even if you didn't -

4 joysticks - 16 inputs
4 coin and start - 8 inputs
7 P1 and P2 buttons - 14 inputs
4 P3 and P4 buttons - 8 inputs

46 inputs total, so you still have ten inputs for Pause, Escape, Tab, Enter, F12 (), etc.

What concerns me, is the following from Ultimarc:
"The I-PAC4 has 56 inputs. All programmable and designated 4 joysticks, 8 buttons each plus coin 1,2,3,4 and start 1,2,3,4. Two of the inputs are assigned as shift keys to access two separate codes sets covering the player 1,2 and the player 3,4 inputs."
Does this shift mode here mean that I press a certain button, than press other buttons to select an alternate key stroke? I think this might be kind of funky and non-intuitive for certain users.

Yep, that paragraph is confusing.  Trust me, you get 56 direct inputs.  Two of these (non-action preferably) inputs can be used to send an alternate keystroke when depressed for an additional 54 inputs (110 total, not that there are that many available).  This is very funky and non-intuitive for the guest user, but here's how it could benefit you:  Just an example -

Let's say you want access to MAME's TAB menu without plugging a keyboard into your cab.  You can mount a button to a dedicated input, but that adds an extra button to your cab and invites guests to mess up your settings and then complain that the cab is broken.

Alternately, you could use the I-PAC/4's shift function so that say if you pressed "Pause and Joystick 1 Right" at the same time, the Tab key would be sent.  Most guests won't try this (especially if you're on Stick 1), but as long as you remember it, you don't have to hunt for a keyboard to make a 2-second change to the dipswitch settings.  

There is the optipac, and the KE72 with the trackball interface. I plan on having one trackball, and one spinner. How do you use these two on a KE72?

Well the KE-72T interface is only designed for one trackball (or two spinners)  I THINK(!) you could hook both up with a DPDT switch like this:
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/DPDTswitch.shtml , but I wouldn't really recommend it.

I know the optipac states that both are connected and it detects which one moves first and uses that one.

Right, if you want the trackball and spinner BOTH to be available at all times, the opti-pac is really about the only way to go.  (www.oscarcontrols.com also sells a pre-hacked USB mouse for about $13, which is a great option if you wanted say a modular set-up, and/or you could use this and a different brand mouse hack, but I think a pair of OSCAR hacks might swap positions on re-boot (which is bad)).

Even if they didn't, they would both be always active and not auto-switch like the opti-pac.

How does the KE72 do it? Are both the spinner and the trackball live at the same time?

No . . . I would think you could wire them both up and have them both active but I've read that this does NOT work (possibly read it on the DPDT page I linked above).

How is the wiring done?

See DPDT link above.

The KE72 has a plug for the Happ trackball, what about the spinner? Do you splice into this connection?

You definitely could if you only wanted the spinner and not the trackball . . .

As a side note, are there any games that use two trackballs or two spinners? I've seen some boards that have two of each.

Sure . . .

Off the top of my head -

Dual trackballs - Marble Madness, C.A.B.A.L., Blood Bros., maybe ATAXX, Crystal Castles, others???

Dual Spinners - Blasteroids, Warlords (paddles, but anyway), and 360-degree driving games like badlands, Sprint, Indy Heat, etc.  (probably others?)

Thanks!! This is my first post, as I'm about ready to begin this project.

Good questions for a first post.  You've obviously done a fair amount of homework.

Right now I have everything I need except encoder and a cabinet. I plan on getting the CP done right then design the cab around that.

Bad idea!  If you get the CP done, you'll have too much fun playing games to ever think about building the cab    (Just kidding, but others have said it before.)

[quarterback]

Alternately, you could use the I-PAC/4's shift function so that say if you pressed "Pause and Joystick 1 Right" at the same time, the Tab key would be sent.  

It seems that a lot of these keyboard controllers have this "shift" option available to add more control options.  I've got a question: Could you hook up a SINGLE button wired into TWO of the controller's inputs simultaneously (like Shift & "fire") to get the wanted response?

You know, lets say I have an ipac controller with 28 dedicated inputs, one of them a 'shift' key for the alternate code set (28 more codes)  If I've got a big CP and I've used all the 28, could I also hook up additional single buttons wired to both the "shift" and the "coin1" inputs and another to the "shift" and "coin2" inputs to add additional single-key inputs?  Or would doubling up the "coin1" input (which is already it's own dedicated button on my CP) screw things up?

[Hiub1]

I don't know if you could screw things up like that, I would think that it should not be a problem, but DO NOT take my word for it as I do NOT know for sure. With my CP, every admin function is accessed through the shift key, and it gives the whole CP a less cluttered look, and way more authentic than having a whole bunch of buttons for computer functions. That is just my opinion, plus like Tiger said, people tend to LOVE smashing every button that they see, and if they access your control maps and such they could really screw up your set-up that you worked so hard for.

Let us know what you go with!

[Tiger-Heli]

Alternately, you could use the I-PAC/4's shift function so that say if you pressed "Pause and Joystick 1 Right" at the same time, the Tab key would be sent.  

It seems that a lot of these keyboard controllers have this "shift" option available to add more control options.  I've got a question: Could you hook up a SINGLE button wired into TWO of the controller's inputs simultaneously (like Shift & "fire") to get the wanted response?

You know, lets say I have an ipac controller with 28 dedicated inputs, one of them a 'shift' key for the alternate code set (28 more codes)  If I've got a big CP and I've used all the 28, could I also hook up additional single buttons wired to both the "shift" and the "coin1" inputs and another to the "shift" and "coin2" inputs to add additional single-key inputs?  Or would doubling up the "coin1" input (which is already it's own dedicated button on my CP) screw things up?

See http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/shiftkeys.htm

You are describing what I refer to as "stealth-shifted" inputs.  It's not as simple as you describe you need diodes and such as well.

Can it be done?  Yes  Should it be done - probably not.

The biggest drawback is that the shift function shifts ALL the other keys.  Here's an example of when this would be bad -

Lets say you have P2B2 shifted to be escape, and P1B1 shifted to be "Coin 1", you are playing a two player game and you try to add another coin just as your opponent presses Bomb and . . .  Game over.

You can maybe pick keys to make this less likely, but the more shifted inputs you use, the more likely you will run into a similar scenario.

[calicyco]

Thanks everybody, I think I understand what to do now. I need an IPAC/4 and Optipac to start. Tiger-Heli - your site is exactly what I need to design this! I have been reading mame cab sites for about a year now and have not seen yours, and its the most useful! hehe

Another question - USB or serial on the Optipac?

I definitely need to sit down and really plan this control panel out more, I don't have a great amount of knowledge into all the games and their control needs, just the games I am most familiar with. Is there some site with the full break down of available games and their control needs? Similar to the info on http://www.mameworld.net/tigerheli/encoder/index.htm but with all of them?

[calicyco]

Heh, never mind my last question, the site Tiger-Heli posted contains pretty much all I need to know about quantity and type of inputs.

Still curious about the serial vs. usb question though.

[Matt Berry]

While some people may argue with this I'd recomend usb especially if you are not building a dedicated mame cabinet. You could also have problems with USB in a pure DOS enviroment but most people don't run pure DOS. My last keyboard encoder was a hagstrom LP24 which connected to the PS/2 with a keyboard passthrough. I found it was hard to plug and unplug the controller because it had to be plugged into the back. With usb it is hot swappable, ports are available via a hub or on most computers the front of the case. I've found that the Ipac in USB mode is way faster and more responsive then the LP24 was in PS/2 mode. The Ipac and optipac in USB mode would be the way to go. Don't worry about the number of inputs because as another poster pointed out, For player 1 and 2 you only need 6 buttons and 3 and 4 will only use 4. That leaves a lot of extra buttons. Shift button works very well for various admin functions

[Kremmit]

Still curious about the serial vs. usb question though.

Once upon a time the serial version was the only way to get dual trackballs, but this problem has been beaten.  Now the only reasons I can think of to go serial are:

DOS compatiblilty;
No USB ports on your MAME computer;
Leaves your USB port free for other devices (but you could alwas add more USB ports or a hub);
You think using old-school stuff is cool.  

And good for you on doing your homework first!

[quarterback]

You are describing what I refer to as "stealth-shifted" inputs.  It's not as simple as you describe you need diodes and such as well.

Can it be done?  Yes  Should it be done - probably not.

Thanks for the info Tiger-Heli

[calicyco]

When daisy chaining an IPAC/4 - maybe you need a LOT of inputs for some reason - can you designate single inputs to be shifted key strokes? For instance, can I have a button on the machine that is SHIFT-1 that will not shift the entire key set. I would imagine so, but just want to clarify. Also, can this work for CONTROL and ALT key combos? I'm not sure if the keyboard interface can accept this, because those are two different key codes, shift then the button, correct?

I doubt there's any need for that many inputs though, so perhaps this doesn't matter.

Thanks everybody, this forum is a great place, can't wait to start building!

[Matt Berry]

I couldn't see needing that many inputs, but no matter what when the special designated "shift" key is pressed all inputs are then shifted to thier alternate keycodes. Safest bet is to make all player controls the same regardless if they are shifted or not. The ipac works in the following fashion, all keys are sent when the button is pressed except for the designated shift button which is sent when the button is released. The reason this is important is you are only sending the key you want (1 key stroke) where as another encoder like the keywiz sends the shifted input plus the extra key (2 keys). So to get a shifted input you hit the shift then the desired button. You can put 2 inputs on one button (without the shift) but you must isolate them with diodes.

[Tiger-Heli]

Ok, you are confusing three different terms -

Daisy chaining refers to plugging an I-PAC/2 into the KB pass-thru of the I-PAC/4 to get 84 unshifted inputs.

Stealth-shifted inputs refers to wiring a button with diodes and resistors and capacitors so the button sends the encoders shifted input rather than the standard input.

Keyboard shift combinations refers to sending ALT-Key combos to accomplish specific functions and CANNOT be done with encoder shift functions.

Now that that is out of the way . . .  (Now I'm a little confused about what you are asking. . .

When daisy chaining an IPAC/4 - maybe you need a LOT of inputs for some reason - can you designate single inputs to be shifted key strokes?

Okay, if you daisy-chain the I-PAC/4 and I-PAC/2, you have 84 unshifted inputs.  You would have to program the I-PAC/2 to some alternate codeset so it doesn't conflict with the /4, but it remembers settings, so that is no problem.

If you want to know if you can still use stealth-shifted buttons to get 85 inputs (or not have buttons on your panel), yes, you can.

If you want to know if you can have a button send ALT-F4 or something, read on, but yes. . .

For instance, can I have a button on the machine that is SHIFT-1 that will not shift the entire key set. I would imagine so, but just want to clarify.

NO!  See earlier reply.  Any button that sends a shifted input will shift the entire set for as long as it is pressed.  If you only want one shifted input, you can work around this by setting all other inputs to send the SAME key whether regular or shifted.  However, if you want two shifted inputs, you run the risk of pressing the button for Shift-1 and having someone else press the regular 2 button and the encoder sending Shift-2.  Just one of the drawbacks of using this method.

Also, can this work for CONTROL and ALT key combos? I'm not sure if the keyboard interface can accept this, because those are two different key codes, shift then the button, correct?

You cannot really do this with stealth-shifted inputs (you probably could with a time-delay circuit, but it's out of my league.)

You have two options, though.  With the new Winipac IPD software, you can right-click on a button to assign up to a four key macro.

Or, you can use a program like Ultra Keyboard to send Alt-F4 whenever Esc is pressed in SOME (but not all) programs.

I doubt there's any need for that many inputs though, so perhaps this doesn't matter.

Like I said initially, I don't see a need for more than 46.

[Tiger-Heli]

Uh . . . . almost . . .

The reason this is important is you are only sending the key you want (1 key stroke) where as another encoder like the keywiz sends the shifted input plus the extra key (2 keys).

In normal usage, the KeyWiz has 32 inputs PLUS the Shazaaam! key.  The Shazaaam! key normally sends no input so pressing it and another key only sends the 1-key shifted input (and sends it instantly on keydown as opposed to on key release with the I-PAC).

There is a way to wire the KeyWiz so that the Shazaaam! key also sends an input when pressed by itself, and in this instance only, does the KeyWiz send two inputs.

So to get a shifted input you hit the shift then the desired button. You can put 2 inputs on one button (without the shift) but you must isolate them with diodes.

Yes but you also run the risk of sending F4-Alt half the time instead of ALt-F4, so you are better off using the WinIpac IPD macro feature.

[Tiger-Heli]

Just wanted to add a couple of things:

Calicyco - You shouldn't need to daisy-chain anything.  I was figuring stuff up last night and a six-player control panel only really needs 58 inputs.  I could make it work (easily) with an I-PAC/4.  If you really think you need more than 56 inputs for a 4-player CP, please post what inputs you are planning to use.

Finally, for Alt-S (for example), the Winipac IPD is the best solution, but remember that typically P1B2 is L Alt, and P2B2 is S, so you could just press these buttons directly to access this key combination.

[calicyco]

You are right Tiger, I won't be needing that much input. I'll be using 4 players and should be ok with the IPAC/4.

I am curious about something though. I plan on having some buttons have the same function, ie. multiple P1B1 as well as some others. Do I need to use up multiple inputs on the IPAC for this, or can I wire all controls that are the same input to the same terminal on the IPAC board?

Is that a common thing? I imagine that, for instance, the fire button next to the spinner would be the same button as the fire button next to the player1 joystick. It would be uncomfortable to have this button in only one place.

Thanks!!

[Tiger-Heli]

Do I need to use up multiple inputs on the IPAC for this, or can I wire all controls that are the same input to the same terminal on the IPAC board?

You would just wire all the buttons to the same input.  I'm not sure how common it is, but if you like it, do it that way.  It is your machine.

[Matt Berry]

Either daisy chain the input that is the same together or run them back to the same terminal on the IPAC. I'd daisy chain them because it wouldn't take too many wires to fill up the terminal strip slot.