rant - Frontends

[paigeoliver]

Just getting extremely frustrated here, it seems that each and every new frontend version is more and more convoluted and requires more and more magic mojo to actually get them to work.

What happened to the old days when you put the front end in the emulator directory and ran it and it worked.

I just spend 4 hours installing Kymeara including a massive windows update required to run it. Of course I can't use it as (as is common with almost all frontends these days) the gamelist generation software is broken and exits with a "parameter must be positive" message.

So I tried the new version of Mamewah. Nope, no dice there "mscom32.ocx is not properly registered".

[Mameotron]

I'll second your rantings - I have NEVER been able to simply install and run a frontend without spending hours (sometimes days) deciphering the "simple and intuitive" instructions for configuring and running the thing.

I use TurboMAME.  It has no exciting features, can't navigate with a joystick, but it works.  All I had to do was install it and click on the icon.  Why can't all frontends be like this?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I have at least managed to get the current version of mamewah to load after going through yet another windows update.

But this is still all just nuts. I am the guy who owns 30 computers, the guy who everyone brings their computer to in order to fix them. I am that guy and I still can't get 90 percent of the frontends out there to run.

I really do appreciate all the programming time that goes into these things, it is just ashamed that so much of it is wasted. If I can't get most of these running then I can't imagine that most others are having much luck either.

[paigeoliver]

The problem is that all of them are trying to do some magic garbage with all the ini and xml files and all that crap when it would be much simpler to GASP read the list of files in the roms folder.

[paigeoliver]

Arrrgh, now I can't even get mamewah configured anymore. I used to at least be able to do that.

10/26/2004 4:25:14 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM CMD.EXE /c c:\mame\mame.exe -listxml|xml2info > C:\mamewah\mame.dat
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:21 AM Error 5 Invalid procedure call or argument in CTRLR_ActivateEvent

My Sega Turbo machine has a custom romset that I hacked myself to change some game details. But I can't get any frontend to work.

[paigeoliver]

Great, they also broke advancemenu since I tried it last. It works just fine, but it comes up in a window that is halfway off the edge of the screen.

There went that one, that one used to be idiot proof.

[cdbrown]

try ArcadEpic - worked like a charm first time.  Was up and running in about 3 minutes.

[paigeoliver]

Gamelauncher, my former frontend of last resort.

Current version launches the emulator minimized with an xp command window over it.

[paigeoliver]

try ArcadEpic - worked like a charm first time.  Was up and running in about 3 minutes.

Looked very promising at first, unfortunately that ended with "both -listinfo and -listinfo failed, please check that the mame exe is a valid version of mame".

I get this with EVERY version of mame I have installed.

[Minwah]

So I tried the new version of Mamewah. Nope, no dice there "mscom32.ocx is not properly registered".

Heh, the trick here is to read the bit on the downloads page under 'PLEASE READ BEFORE DOWNLOADING!'

[Minwah]

The problem is that all of them are trying to do some magic garbage with all the ini and xml files and all that crap when it would be much simpler to GASP read the list of files in the roms folder.

If you want a list of romnames great (no-one I know wants this), otherwise reading -listinfo or -listxml is *neccessary*.

[Minwah]

10/26/2004 4:25:14 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM CMD.EXE /c c:\mame\mame.exe -listxml|xml2info > C:\mamewah\mame.dat
10/26/2004 4:29:19 AM Error 53 File not found in EMU_GenerateFilters
10/26/2004 4:29:21 AM Error 5 Invalid procedure call or argument in CTRLR_ActivateEvent

This one's my fault, I broke something    You should be able to get a main list tho, just no filtered lists.

[paigeoliver]

The problem is that all of them are trying to do some magic garbage with all the ini and xml files and all that crap when it would be much simpler to GASP read the list of files in the roms folder.

If you want a list of romnames great (no-one I know wants this), otherwise reading -listinfo or -listxml is *neccessary*.

I'd love to simply have the option of having the rom names and have it work than having nothing at all.

Your frontend is the only good one I ever got functioning, although I can't seem to get the current version to work.

I did a fresh mame install, and arcadepic still exits with the same complaint when trying to generate the list.

This was with a fresh install of .69

I refuse to install .88 just to try and use a frontend, as .88 is dog slow and is going to run like crap on my system.

[Minwah]

I think the point here is flexibility...FE's develop as the users want every feature under the sun, the ability to launch every emulator etc.  Naturally to enable this it makes setting up more difficult...however, most FE's can still be set up (basically) within minutes.

As Howard would say, software is a *major* part of any cab, IMO anyone who wants a good looking cab should be prepared to put in some time on the software side.

[paigeoliver]

Yay, 5 and half hours in and I have yet to actually be able to launch a game properly.

This is frankly enough to make me want quit the whole scene.

[Minwah]

I'd love to simply have the option of having the rom names and have it work than having nothing at all.

Set list_generation_method to rom_folder in your \mamewah\ini\mame.ini file, and refresh the list.

Your frontend is the only good one I ever got functioning, although I can't seem to get the current version to work.

Let me know some more details if you want, I'll try to help you out...

I refuse to install .88 just to try and use a frontend, as .88 is dog slow and is going to run like crap on my system.

You don't have to, I still run 0.87, but have also been running many versions previous to that.

[paigeoliver]

I think the point here is flexibility...FE's develop as the users want every feature under the sun, the ability to launch every emulator etc.  Naturally to enable this it makes setting up more difficult...however, most FE's can still be set up (basically) within minutes.

As Howard would say, software is a *major* part of any cab, IMO anyone who wants a good looking cab should be prepared to put in some time on the software side.

We gave our friend Ron a cab for Christmas last year and I spent an entire day setting up the mamewah install.

Two days later it would no longer load mamewah and was getting some sort of error message. Ron doesn't live close by, and to make a long story short, he has still never been able to play his cabinet.

[Minwah]

Yay, 5 and half hours in and I have yet to actually be able to launch a game properly.

This is frankly enough to make me want quit the whole scene.

Lighten up...all you have to do is ask and we'll do all we can to help.  If you'd done that to begin with I'm sure you would already be further along than you are with your 'rant'.

[Minwah]

We gave our friend Ron a cab for Christmas last year and I spent an entire day setting up the mamewah install.

Two days later it would no longer load mamewah and was getting some sort of error message. Ron doesn't live close by, and to make a long story short, he has still never been able to play his cabinet.

That's a real shame, but what's your point?  If it worked for 2 days it must've been fine, maybe Ron messed with something he shouldn't have.  Or maybe not.  Either way, what's he been doing for the last 10 months?  Is clair voyance a requirement for FE dev's nowadays?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, I finally got both a list and a game to launch with mamewah.

Minwah, don't take anything as any attack on you, heck as far as I am concerned you have the only frontend with any real options that even has a remotely workable setup.

Now hopefully I will be able to repeat this feat when it comes time to set up the next machine.

Has  your current version fixed the problem of the installing going corrupt? I used to have that problem. Mamewah would work fine for however long, and then magically one day switch over to a consistent run time error.

[paigeoliver]

His system got the run time error. Same thing I had encountered in the past, where a previously working install would just stop working and get a runtime error instead.

[Minwah]

Minwah, don't take anything as any attack on you, heck as far as I am concerned you have the only frontend with any real options that even has a remotely workable setup.

No problem, I realise my FE isn't perfect by a long shot, but I would rather see you ask specifically for help than start a rant

Has  your current version fixed the problem of the installing going corrupt? I used to have that problem. Mamewah would work fine for however long, and then magically one day switch over to a consistent run time error.

Was this the Runtime Error 62?  I never actually had this problem myself, but I am sure it was to do with the CFG files getting corrupt somehow.  Assuming that, then yes it is fixed (the new config file system is much more reliable), haven't had any reports to the contrary anyway.

[paigeoliver]

I don't remember the number anymore, as it has been a while since I used mamewah. Been a while since I used any non-vertical frontend as I don't have a horizontal cabinet and Ron's was the last I did that used Mamewah.

But I sure encountered it pretty consistently back when I was using it.

[Minwah]

I don't remember the number anymore, as it has been a while since I used mamewah. Been a while since I used any non-vertical frontend as I don't have a horizontal cabinet and Ron's was the last I did that used Mamewah.

But I sure encountered it pretty consistently back when I was using it.

OK I'm pretty sure it was the one I mentioned...it seemed to affect people who 'shelled' MW most, but a few other people had the same problem too.

[paigeoliver]

Can I use the current version of mame to generate the gamelist and then safely slip my old version back in place afterwards?

[paigeoliver]

Ok, that did work. I was able to generate the correct names with mame .88 and then install .69 over that!!!!!!!!!!

Tip to all wanting to use older version of mame with newer frontend. Install the current version and set that up, and then copy the old version over it and it will work just fine.

 

[PacManFan]

Paigeoliver,

What's the problem with Kymaera? What kind of problems generating a game list were you having? I tried to make generating a gamelist as painless as possible.

If you've got any suggestions to make it easier, I'm listening.
-PMF

[Buddabing]

Just getting extremely frustrated here, it seems that each and every new frontend version is more and more convoluted and requires more and more magic mojo to actually get them to work.

What happened to the old days when you put the front end in the emulator directory and ran it and it worked.

I just spend 4 hours installing Kymeara including a massive windows update required to run it. Of course I can't use it as (as is common with almost all frontends these days) the gamelist generation software is broken and exits with a "parameter must be positive" message.

So I tried the new version of Mamewah. Nope, no dice there "mscom32.ocx is not properly registered".

I feel your pain.

One of my software projects is a simple cross-platform front end that just works, and doesn't require a lot of cpu, disk space, or RAM. It'll run on a DOS bootable floppy, Linux, or a command line.

I'm glad you were able to get something to work.

[darktemp]

The frontends are free how can you possibly complain?  Suggestions and questions to solve problems are one thing but moaning about a program that is given away and no doubt took about 1000 times longer to code then it has taken you to setup is ridiculous.

[screaming]

The frontends are free how can you possibly complain?  Suggestions and questions to solve problems are one thing but moaning about a program that is given away and no doubt took about 1000 times longer to code then it has taken you to setup is ridiculous.

  So true.

  "But I want a golden goose NOW, daddy!"

  The problem that FE developers have to deal with though, is that they delevop a middle-ware product, and most of the time they're implementing features for other people (instead for themselves).   They have no control over how MAME, CPViewer, Johnny5, VirtuaNES, gens, zsnes, work, they only get to deal with it in a closed source way.  Setting up all those programs and getting them to run from the command line are certainly outside the scope of any frontend, especially if it's of the multiple-emulator variety.  

  That accounts for at least 85% of the problems most people have setting up a frontend from scratch.

-Steve

[SirPeale]

How can we complain?  How's this: working on a visually impressive project, with lots of features, that is very hard to use.  Sure, it's "free" but as we all know that term is subjective.  No money changes hands, but the time involved is certainly worth something.

Paige said that AdvanceMenu is easy to set up.  Not for me!  I haven't been able to get it to run properly yet.  On different types of hardware, on both arcade and PC monitors.

[screaming]

How can we complain?  How's this: working on a visually impressive project, with lots of features, that is very hard to use.  Sure, it's "free" but as we all know that term is subjective.  No money changes hands, but the time involved is certainly worth something.

  Okay, then make your own  The time involved in THAT is certainly more costly than the time involved in setting one up.

  Sure, it's frustrating.  I was there once, setting up all the FEs for the first time and seeing how buggy they all are.  It was very time consuming and rediculously complex. If I ever thought that creating my own would take less time though I would certainly have chosen that road.  It's the lesser of two evils, if you have to look at it that way.

-Steve

[Mr. Dude]

Whoa, it seems someone was having a high flow day.
Seriously though, if you're having trouble why not just use an older version of one of the FEs?  I'm using a version of mamewah that's like 4 versions old on my cabinet.  I love it, it functions great and I have no reason to update.  Just because there is a newer version it doesn't mean that it's always the best one for you... just look at MAME as an example.  

[whammoed]

I run advmenu on linux and thought it was pretty easy to set up.  Set up a custom list, got rid of the sounds (I thought they were a little annoying) and changed the color scheme in no time.  All I wanted was a simple looking front end with a list of games on the left and a screen shot on the right.  Took no time at all.

[btoddkelley]

     Frontend authors are faced with the problem that firms face everyday....when you make the product more flexible it becomes more complicated. I for one am willing to live with more complex setup to have more features. (I use mamewah)
     I have found with mamewah that I can copy my mamewah directory from my "master cab" along with my emulators folder and when I start mamewah it works just like it did on the master. (save installing plus ins in Epsxe and project 64). If you are building multiple cabs you really only have to set it up once.
     One thing that helped me learn mamewah was mamewah set. I could set up an emu and go look at the config file and then "work backwards" to understand what mamewah wanted. I have not upgraded to 1.5 yet. I am hoping for another mamewah setup to appear before this weekend! A frontends frontend is the ideal solution for learning!
          One interesting note about copying mamewah over to another cab....for some reason SOME (not all)  the pic's will not always show up until you have started mamewah set up. Even a version of mamewah set up that will not work with the version of mamewah will somehow fix the problem! Once you have started mamewah setup (and it warns you to get a more recent version) if you go back and start mamewah the pics now show up.
     Another tool that I think would make mamewah even better is a program to allow you to change the emulator order. I have all my emu's from earliest to latest and when adding an old system,
 changing the order can be time consuming.

Todd

[mahuti]

I'm in the process of building something with the goal of correcting this exact situation. I am going to execute an alpha testing plan sometime in the next few weeks. I'll update you when I do... I'll be looking for specific computer configurations for testing.

Project goals
1. Smart
2. Built in setup functionality
3. Works in any direction (for vert monitors)
4. Built in CP viewer / configurator
5. Ability to combine roms from different emulators in lists.
6. Extremely flexible
7. Completely configurable via joystick / arcade controls OR with a keyboard OR via ini / xml files.
8. **secretsssss**
9. Movie play for screensaver or game browsing.

The alpha will not contain most of these features, unfortunately. I'll be testing for 98, 2000, Xp compliance, speed first.  Right now I have a working alpha that does the basics, displays roms for mame and pictures. I also  have a working beta for the control panel configurator, viewer. A lot of the components of my FE have been built and work rather simply, real world testing may beat the crap out of it, though, so don't get your hopes up. At the very minimum I will release a version of this that may or may not have tons of bells and whistles, but my highest priority is "drop and go" setup. If the main components work fluidly, (menu scrolling, file browsing) on a variety of platforms, I will continue detailed development. While I would like this FE to be available to all, my primary targets will be for the masses, and not for niche systems. I am testing on old and new machines, but I've yet to try it on a PC with arcade monitor... there's no reason it wouldn't work, but I can't imagine what kind of issues I will see with refresh rates khz problems.

The biggest bonuses that my FE will provide (providing I can actually release it) is its ability to use plug-ins and mods, and my no setup / no upgrade policy that I  am focusing on for its development.

Anyway, sorry for the vaporware post, but I'm having a hard time keeping my excitement in. I will be posting more over the next few weeks.

[mahuti]

Oh, and mine reads the list of files in the roms folder

[Howard_Casto]

sorry paige, but you must be "this smart" to ride.  


I've found that, in general at least, people who complain about the setups of fes do one or all of the following:

1.) Do NOT read the extensive docs that come with the fe.  (We didn't write them for our health you know.)

2.) Do NOT spend the appropriate time learning to use them.  Unless you want a fe that doesn't do anything, there are a lot of options to set and unfortunately emulators are not constructed in such a way that we can magically guess all the appropriate settings for you.  We are programmers, not psychic.  

3.) Are NOT computer literate enough to be in this hobby.  People seem to think that it's our duty as fe developers to make things "automagic" for them.  If you can't setup commandline mame via ini files on your own, easily, blindfolded, then you do not posess the technical competance to be running anything other than mame32.  I'm sorry, but that's the sad facts.  You'd think with a hobby that involves interfacing arcade cabinets with computers people would naturally understand that an intimate knowledge of both fields are required.

4.) They do NOT have patience enough to set them up properly, troubleshoot, and work with developers to get it up and running.  It SHOULD take you several hours if not several weeks to get a fe setup just right, with the proper skin, exactly how you want it.  I like to use this analogy..... normal windows programs are like kitchen appliances, you plug them in and they work. This is because the average windows program doesn't do all that much, it does one simple task and that's it.  All the data it needs is self contained.  Now a front-end is like a router and a router bit.  They are tools towards an end product.  All the data they need is external and knowing how to use the device is FAR more important than how well it works.  Remember, all the fe can do (I am over-simplifing) is display a list with images and launch games, two very simple functions.  But what to display is entirely up to you.  You have to tell it or it has to aquire the information form where you specify.  Thus if you can't get a fe to work, it's probably your fault.  Let's face it, there isn't much that can go wrong other than user error.  


Conclusion.... sounds like one of dem dare 1d-10-t errors to me.  

[PacManFan]

what language (c++, vb,etc) are you planning on programming this in? Kymaera is C++, open source, and does everything you just described.

-PMF

[mahuti]

I have a crappy old win 98 pc that is badly maintained, plus I have a short fuse, very high hourly rate, no patience for reading docs, don't want to learn anything new. Basically, I'm one of Howards "thissmarts..." though I don't actually complain (well maybe a tiny bit, but not on purpose.)

I tried Kymaera, really liked it right off the bat. Then I set it up for hours, tried some basic stuff, it worked. After I kept going a while, it gave me errors, I gave up and went back to mamewah (which also gives me errors, just not as bad). Honestly, I know it's not Kymaera's "fault." If configured correctly, it will work as advertised... I just don't care to configure it correctly. Kymaera does a lot, but what I'm working on is drastically different in some very fundamental ways. The architecture that I'm using makes it very difficult to do set up some of the very simple tasks elegantly, but is very flexible with some of the more complex items, so the initial setup has been a real challenge, and I'm still looking for some increase in efficiencies of scale, speed, size and flexibility.

It's not about anybody else, or their software. I just like solving problems, and there are plenty to solve in this arena. I'm coming at it from a different direction, with a different perspective and set of skills... I'd tell you what language I'm using but
1. You'd laugh
and
2. I'm not ready to share much. When I get a little closer I'll either announce that I've failed, or I'll give some details.

Anyway, I've long wanted to help out, but because of my skillset, I'm not really of any use to any of the developers on this board, and for the most part, they won't be of use to me in my pursuits. So, since technically what I'm talking about is, for now, vaporware, I'm going to shut up about it, and get back to work.