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Author Topic: Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq  (Read 10042 times)

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Crazy Cooter

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Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« on: October 25, 2004, 05:42:52 pm »
Too bad we didn't have anyone guarding it.  :-\

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6323933/

"At the Pentagon, an official who monitors developments in Iraq said U.S.-led coalition troops had searched Al-Qaqaa in the immediate aftermath of the March 2003 invasion and confirmed that the explosives, which had been under IAEA seal since 1991, were intact. The site was not secured by U.S. forces, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity."

"White House press secretary Scott McClellan said the administration

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2004, 01:43:50 am »
ya know, it's funny....this story was reported on over a year ago.  I wonder why the "unbiased media"  ::) is re-reporting this story now.

Also, I don't see what the big deal is.  These are just explosives, after all.  Nothing Iraq couldn't get by trading some Oil For Food....unless NOW this stuff is relevant.   ::)

Maybe France just came and picked up the stuff they hadn't received payment on yet.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2004, 01:44:24 am »
Here, Cooter, you forgot to blame this one on Bush, too.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6325688/


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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2004, 03:40:46 am »
ya know, it's funny....this story was reported on over a year ago.  I wonder why the "unbiased media"  ::) is re-reporting this story now.
They are not re-reporting he story. The date they mention is the date the UN took inventory before and between that date and now the stuff is gone. So they would report on the end of the period which is ... now.
Quote
Also, I don't see what the big deal is.  These are just explosives, after all.  Nothing Iraq couldn't get by trading some Oil For Food....unless NOW this stuff is relevant.   ::)
Oh so now it isn't a problem? You were the one going bananas over the conventional arms bought by Iraq. But indeed I'd say this is much worse. The US is supposed to be there to put and end to terrorism. How do you figure people stealing high explosives is gonna help in that area? Now we don't have a government owning the stuff (a government that could/would not threaten the US BTW), but we have terrorists roaming the place with these high explosives. You don't see how that is worse than Saddam buying a few anti aircraft missiles?
Quote
Maybe France just came and picked up the stuff they hadn't received payment on yet.
Who knows. They did sell them plenty of stuff before the sanctions, but they would have told the UN about it.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2004, 03:28:00 pm »
Patrickl,

What's your source for that?

Here's the report I got for it:
Quote
60 MINS PLANNED BUSH MISSING EXPLOSIVES STORY FOR ELECTION EVE

News of missing explosives in Iraq -- first reported in April 2003 -- was being resurrected for a 60 MINUTES election eve broadcast designed to knock the Bush administration into a crisis mode.

Jeff Fager, executive producer of the Sunday edition of 60 MINUTES, said in a statement that "our plan was to run the story on October 31, but it became clear that it wouldn't hold..."

Elizabeth Jensen at the LOS ANGELES TIMES details on Tuesday how CBS NEWS and 60 MINUTES lost the story [which repackaged previously reported information on a large cache of explosives missing in Iraq, first published and broadcast in 2003].

The story instead debuted in the NYT. The paper slugged the story about missing explosives from April 2003 as "exclusive."

An NBCNEWS crew embedded with troops moved in to secure the Al-Qaqaa weapons facility on April 10, 2003, one day after the liberation of Iraq.

According to NBCNEWS, the explosives were already missing when the American troops arrived. [VIDEO CLIP]

It is not clear who exactly shopped an election eve repackaging of the missing explosives story.

The LA TIMES claims: The source on the story first went to 60 MINUTES but also expressed interest in working with the NY TIMES... "The tip was received last Wednesday."

CBSNEWS' plan to unleash the story just 24 hours before election day had one senior Bush official outraged.

"Darn, I wanted to see the forged documents to show how this was somehow covered up," the Bush source, who asked not to be named, mocked, recalling last months CBS airing of fraudulent Bush national guard letters.
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patrickl

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2004, 03:50:47 pm »
I'm talking about the report Crazy Cooter pointed too of course.

Actually there were several weapons caches incidents (there were a few blowing up just "after" the invasion)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 03:55:15 pm by patrickl »
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Crazy Cooter

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2004, 04:03:58 pm »
Here, Cooter, you forgot to blame this one on Bush, too.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6325688/



380 tons of explosives could probably cause an earthquake.  I can't help it that Bush is a fish in a barrel.  These are decisions that he and the people he put in charge are making.  We bit off more than we can chew and it's becoming more and more obvious.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2004, 05:40:28 pm »
380 tons of explosives could probably cause an earthquake.  I can't help it that Bush is a fish in a barrel.  These are decisions that he and the people he put in charge are making.  We bit off more than we can chew and it's becoming more and more obvious.
you think that's obvious, but you can't see that Kerry would make things worse.

Gore lost, get over it.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2004, 05:50:11 pm »
380 tons of explosives could probably cause an earthquake.  I can't help it that Bush is a fish in a barrel.  These are decisions that he and the people he put in charge are making.  We bit off more than we can chew and it's becoming more and more obvious.
you think that's obvious, but you can't see that Kerry would make things worse.
A proper (pre-war) planning of what to do after the invasion would have prevented this problem (and many many others) The gung-ho approach Bush and Rumsfeld took to execute this war hindered this planning (or maybe they just weren't able to foresee the need to plan this since "the Iraqi's would be freed and everything would be peachy") It makes sense Kerry would have taken the time to do some thinking (and then of course there is the simple fact that he is capable of thinking, which would also be an important factor)
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2004, 06:23:54 pm »
They are not re-reporting he story. The date they mention is the date the UN took inventory before and between that date and now the stuff is gone. So they would report on the end of the period which is ... now.
fredster said it pretty well.  Was your defense the "several caches" comment?  

Quote
Oh so now it isn't a problem? You were the one going bananas over the conventional arms bought by Iraq. But indeed I'd say this is much worse. The US is supposed to be there to put and end to terrorism. How do you figure people stealing high explosives is gonna help in that area? Now we don't have a government owning the stuff (a government that could/would not threaten the US BTW), but we have terrorists roaming the place with these high explosives. You don't see how that is worse than Saddam buying a few anti aircraft missiles?
perhaps you missed the ::)

The items missing are powders used in setting up the explosive action of warheads.  You may have heard of them by their common name, WMD's.  Since Iraq CLEARLY ::) doesn't possess WMD's, the theft of these powders amounts to a non-issue now.  

In fact, the area in question was supposed to be under U.N. guard when the items in question either were or were not there.  

This story is the equivalent of the DUI story that "broke" (is it really considered breaking a story if it's known about months prior to the story airing?) on the eve of the last election here that was unable to snipe the election for Gore

Quote
Who knows. They did sell them plenty of stuff before the sanctions, but they would have told the UN about it.
There were things going on there that you previously stated they were doing "to protect investments in the area".  There were also weapons being sold to Iraq, violating the sanctions.  Now you are telling ME that "they would have told the UN about it".  I must be a kettle, because you just called me black.


Cooter, the explosive power of the items in question could indeed cause trembling of the ground.  To use the phrase "could cause an earthquake" is a bit of hyperbole.  If we could cause earthquakes, we wouldn't need weapons during war, we'd just start an earthquake and send our guys in when we set it off ;)

They could cause explosions  IF  used with a warhead.  Since they have no WMD's, this is a "mute" point ;)  

Or is it a moo point?  As in....even a cow doesn't see the point in this re-release of information over a year old...although even a cow could see that this is, indeed, a re-release of information
« Last Edit: October 26, 2004, 06:52:58 pm by DrewKaree »
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2004, 06:37:34 pm »
Troops from 3 ID were there on 5 April and saw the explosives in question.

5 days later, on 10 April, troops from the 101 AB were there and the explosives were gone.

What happened in those 5 days?
Why is it news, 18 months later?

patrickl

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2004, 06:53:38 pm »
Drew,

I'm not gonna post a reply on all your misunderstandings in the other thread  over here in this thread. If you really want an explanation, just read the messages again. If you see a contradiction you are simply misunderstanding either of the posts.

I'll just explain that "France" did not violate the sanctions. If french weapons were sold to Iraq they could have come from anywhere. The Duelfer report mentions arms dealers getting them from Syria and Jordan. In fact the Duelfer report also mentions US companies violating the sanctions (but hides the names!). Does that mean "the US" defied the sanctions? No indeed not. Just that some criminals in the US did.

My "defense" on this thread is that the article Crazy Cooter pointed too claimed the explosives were there in september 2003 and that there was an inspection again on october 15th (doesn't mention a year, but I assumed they meant 2004) So this is in fact a newsreport on an investigation that just took place.

BTW Where do you find that the items were under UN guard? The UN was not in that war. The US military just sat still for a week while the country was looted. Why was that? Yep no planning.
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Crazy Cooter

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2004, 07:52:20 pm »
"Cooter, the explosive power of the items in question could indeed cause trembling of the ground.  To use the phrase "could cause an earthquake" is a bit of hyperbole."

Yeah, mameo wants me to blame Bush for earthquakes.  That's as much of a stretch I could make. ;)

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2004, 08:15:09 pm »
My "defense" on this thread is that the article Crazy Cooter pointed too claimed the explosives were there in september 2003 and that there was an inspection again on october 15th (doesn't mention a year, but I assumed they meant 2004) So this is in fact a newsreport on an investigation that just took place.

But this isnt the case.

The last IAEA inspection was Jan 2003.
9 April 2003, 101 AB did not see them
23 May 2003, the ISG said they were not there.

So, of the million or so tons of stored munitions in Iraq, almost 1/3 of which have been destroyed since 19 MAR 2003, ~380 tons went missing asometime between Jan and 9 April 2003.

Please note that these ~380 tons of explosive lift capability equates to ~40 10-ton trucks.  The explosives were -not- looted.


If this is the "October Surprise" from the left, get ready for 4 more years of Bush.


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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2004, 08:50:19 pm »

 The explosives were -not- looted.

"But since the disappearance was reported Monday by The New York Times, he said, he wanted the Security Council to have the letter that he received from Mohammed J. Abbas, a senior official at Iraq

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2004, 10:26:37 pm »
You do not "loot" 380 tons of explosives.

You move them with trucks.  Lots of them.  ~40 10-ton trucks, to be more precise.

You do not move them with trucks -after- your ability to move them with trucks has been taken from you.  Please note that in April/May 2003, there was no insurgency; there was no organized 'resistance'.

These weapons were -not- there in the immediate post-war period.  They were moved -before- we arrived in Baghdad, because thats the only way they -could- have been moved.




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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2004, 01:10:13 am »
I'll just explain that "France" did not violate the sanctions. If french weapons were sold to Iraq they could have come from anywhere.
woops, I forgot to change my rhetoric.  

Maybe France Syria or Russia just came and picked up the stuff they hadn't received payment on yet.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2004, 03:26:33 am »
I'll just explain that "France" did not violate the sanctions. If french weapons were sold to Iraq they could have come from anywhere.
woops, I forgot to change my rhetoric.  

Maybe France Syria or Russia just came and picked up the stuff they hadn't received payment on yet.


"Weapons dealer from france" != "France"

But I guess you understand you lost the debate so now we get this ...
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patrickl

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2004, 03:36:36 am »
My "defense" on this thread is that the article Crazy Cooter pointed too claimed the explosives were there in september 2003 and that there was an inspection again on october 15th (doesn't mention a year, but I assumed they meant 2004) So this is in fact a newsreport on an investigation that just took place.

But this isnt the case.

blablabla

If this is the "October Surprise" from the left, get ready for 4 more years of Bush.
"President Bush ordered an investigation of the disappearance shortly after being notified by the IAEA on Oct. 15". This is a report about this "investigation" (of course with some background info)
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2004, 10:58:21 am »
Since Iraq CLEARLY  doesn't possess WMD's, the theft of these powders amounts to a non-issue now.  

Unless you're a GI killed by these powders of course, in which case it's the ONLY issue   ;) Unfortunately, these caches were not part of the Ministry of Oil, in which case they would have been given round the clock protection from day one.

Please note that in April/May 2003, there was no insurgency; there was no organized 'resistance'.

Or WMDs, or 45 minute strike capability, or Al Quaida connections to Saddam. There WAS some guy on an aircraft carrier with a 'mission accomplished' sign behind him though. President Gore must have nearly peed himself laughing at the arrogance and short-sightedness of it all!

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2004, 11:03:31 am »
Please note that in April/May 2003, there was no insurgency; there was no organized 'resistance'.

Or WMDs, or 45 minute strike capability, or Al Quaida connections to Saddam.

And this defeats my point, because...?



President Gore...

Who?

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2004, 11:36:40 am »

And this defeats my point, because...?

I wasn't questioning your point, just reminding folk that there was a lot of things not in Iraq at that time!


Who?

Gore, the President in exile, nice fella, won the 2000 election, remember??

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2004, 11:40:04 am »
well with 350 tons of high grade military explosive  on the black market id think its safe to say theres never been a better time to clear those stumps outta that field..
 ;D
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2004, 12:06:08 pm »


I wasn't questioning your point, just reminding folk that there was a lot of things not in Iraq at that time!

And while people like you think 40 truckloads of explosives can dissapear out from underneath US troops, none of the things that are also "missing" could have possibly been moved somewhere else.



Gore, the President in exile, nice fella, won the 2000 election, remember??

Last i looked, the election went 271-266 for Bush.
You have other information?

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2004, 12:21:49 pm »
This issue has been in the press before.  I think this trick will backfire on the dems who are making this some "new" infomation.

It has no teeth or impact, and the story will unfold in Bush's favor.

It is obviously political.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2004, 12:31:16 pm »
Bush's response hits it out of the park:

"After repeatedly calling Iraq the wrong war, and a diversion, Senator Kerry this week seemed shocked to learn that Iraq is a dangerous place, full of dangerous weapons..."

"If Senator Kerry had his way... Saddam Hussein would still be in power. He would control those all of those weapons and explosives and could share them with his terrorist friends. Now the senator is making wild charges about missing explosives, when his top foreign policy adviser admits, quote, 'We do not know the facts.' Think about that: The senator is denigrating the actions of our troops and commanders in the field without knowing the facts..."

"Our military is now investigating a number of possible scenarios, including that the explosives may have been moved before our troops even arrived at the site. This investigation is important and it's ongoing. And a political candidate who jumps to conclusions without knowing the facts is not a person you want as your commander in chief."

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2004, 02:11:35 pm »
Talk about grasping at Straws.  Kerry picking this up shows what an idiot he is.

The Pentagon says that these weapons were missing before they got there.  The UN is showing the error on thier end.

It also proves the point that weapons were moved around before the war. There's more evidence that WMD was moved out of Iraq.

But the good news is that this is the Best Kerry and his group can come up with for an October Surprise.

I like it. I think it's funny.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2004, 02:20:08 pm »
Bush's response hits it out of the park:

"After repeatedly calling Iraq the wrong war, and a diversion, Senator Kerry this week seemed shocked to learn that Iraq is a dangerous place, full of dangerous weapons..."
and said "dangerous weapons" are now in the hands of terrorists with the compliments of George W B. opposed to in safe storage.
Quote
"If Senator Kerry had his way... Saddam Hussein would still be in power. He would control those all of those weapons and explosives and could share them with his terrorist friends. <snip>
Friends like Rumsfeld?
Quote
"Our military is now investigating a number of possible scenarios, including that the explosives may have been moved before our troops even arrived at the site. This investigation is important and it's ongoing. And a political candidate who jumps to conclusions without knowing the facts is not a person you want as your commander in chief."
and because of this investigation it is now news again. If Bush would have had a clue about ehat he was doing there he might have started the investigation earlier. Maybe even before it was stolen in the first place.

I have to agree this makes the whole scenario of the stolen WMD much more likely. If they put no guards on military stockpiles like this who knows how they "guarded" other installations. Now that's a hoot. They search for the WMD and the people who know just move them out the back door. Wouldn't you just have hoped for someone to start an invasion to actually plan ahead on what to do after the invasion was done? Or does it make sense to say "Ah well our troops are not trained to police these people so well just wait around a bit". The more I think about how this retard screwed up, the more worried I get about how he is helping the terrorists.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2004, 02:30:04 pm »
...and said "dangerous weapons" are now in the hands of terrorists with the compliments of George W B. opposed to in safe storage.

They were taken from storage before US forces arrive.
If you're going to blame anyone for the Iraqis having access to them, blame the IAEA for not blowing them up in 1995, as urged by Duelfur.



Friends like Rumsfeld

Wow.  You're really desperate.
FDR and Truman shook Stalin's hand.  Did that make them friends?



If Bush would have had a clue about ehat he was doing there he might have started the investigation earlier. Maybe even before it was stolen in the first place.

Given that it weas stolen before we arrived there - how do you suggest he have done that?



I have to agree this makes the whole scenario of the stolen WMD much more likely

So.... maybe there WERE WMDs in Iraq?
If so...doesnt that fully legitimatize the invasion?



Wouldn't you just have hoped for someone to start an invasion to actually plan ahead on what to do after the invasion was done?

Wait...
...you're blaming Bush for not having a plan to protect the weapons that are supposedly not there, and for not having enacted that plan BEFORE we physically reached the facilites?

Wow.  Thats... remarkable.


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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2004, 02:33:16 pm »
PatrickL,

You aren't a soldier. It's obvious that you never were. I was a soldier in the US army 1983-1992.

You plan as best you can, but you don't have a freaking crystal ball.  All this talk of a 'plan' that contained contingentcies for every occasion is rediculous.

Don Rumsfeld is not a terrorist.  He's part of the greatest force the world has every known.

The US knew about this report last year.  The Pentagon said these weapons were gone before they owned Baghdad.  The UN is pushing up a smoke screen because of the failures they made in Iraq.

The more I think about how retards look at the war on terror as a simple police action with set rules and regulations the more I realize I'm glad we have strong leadership in the US.

Drew won that debate listed above hands down dude.  Face it, you are shooting blanks.
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patrickl

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2004, 02:39:21 pm »
...and said "dangerous weapons" are now in the hands of terrorists with the compliments of George W B. opposed to in safe storage.

They were taken from storage before US forces arrive.
Well they were stolen at least after 15th of march 2003 and the Iraqi's said they were there after the US came by (who just passed by this complex with 1000 buildings)

But then it's not really important when they were stolen. Much more important is the fact that Bush claims he was going to war to put a stop to terrorism. It now seems the terrorists are up by at least 350tons of high explosives due to his invasion.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2004, 02:46:52 pm »
You plan as best you can, but you don't have a freaking crystal ball.  All this talk of a 'plan' that contained contingentcies for every occasion is rediculous.

Of course I understand you cannot plan ahead for every contingency, but wouldn't it make sense to at least be prepared for the "contingency" that you actually win the invasion? The US forces were not trained for this "contingency" at all (at least that's the excuse they gaave when hell broke loose). Our troops were trained for months on how to deal with the Iraqi's. The US forces should have had similar training, but Bush was in too much of a hurry. I'm not blamingh the military. They were trained to fight and that they did well. If they had some backup police forces or training how to do it themselves for after the war things would have gone a lot smoother. Just a few monthes could have made a huge difference and have cost a lot less deaths.
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Don Rumsfeld is not a terrorist.
But then Saddam didn't have any terrorist friends either. Well the palestinians loved him, but that's about it.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2004, 02:50:14 pm »
Well they were stolen at least after 15th of march 2003 and the Iraqi's said they were there after the US came by (who just passed by this complex with 1000 buildings)

The were -certainly- not there 8 May 2003 when the Iraqi Survey Group showed up.  

Of course, no one has explained to me how insurgets that dont yet exist move ~40 truckloads of explosives out of a facility under US/allied control.


But then it's not really important when they were stolen

Like hell its not.
If they were "stolen" BEFORE US troops showed up then there's no way anyone can blame the asministration for it.  The original NYT story leaves the reader with the impression that they were recently stolen; had they printed the WHOLE TRUTH then there would have been no story at all.


Much more important is the fact that Bush claims he was going to war to put a stop to terrorism.

Um... you people keep telling us Bush said the war in Iraq was all about WMDs.   make up your mind.


It now seems the terrorists are up by at least 350tons of high explosives due to his invasion.

The Iraqis --always-- had access to these weapons, and the ability to give them to the terrorists whenever they wanted to.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2004, 02:54:14 pm »
The US forces were not trained for this "contingency" at all (at least that's the excuse they gaave when hell broke loose).

Incorrect.
the troops in question were not tasked with securing the compound - their mission was to go to Baghdad.

This has nothing to do with training; it has everything to do with the mission at hand.



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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2004, 03:02:59 pm »
The were -certainly- not there 8 May 2003 when the Iraqi Survey Group showed up.  

Of course, no one has explained to me how insurgets that dont yet exist move ~40 truckloads of explosives out of a facility under US/allied control.
Isn't that just the point that they didn't have it under control?
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Much more important is the fact that Bush claims he was going to war to put a stop to terrorism.

Um... you people keep telling us Bush said the war in Iraq was all about WMDs.   make up your mind.
You people? Can't he have 2 reasons. Or more even. "War on terror" and "keeping WMD from terrorists". I don;t really see the distinction though.
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It now seems the terrorists are up by at least 350tons of high explosives due to his invasion.

The Iraqis --always-- had access to these weapons, and the ability to give them to the terrorists whenever they wanted to.
Yeah, but then there is no proof he wanted to do so (or ever did) so we have to assume he wasn't going to do that. But then who needs rational thinking when a nuke could go off any minute in NYC.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2004, 03:14:31 pm »
Isn't that just the point that they didn't have it under control?

Thats the point you'd LIKE to make, but you cant.
You cant even show that the weapons were there when we arrived.
Youre premise is that a force of insurgents (that did not yet exist) used a force of at least 40 trucks that they did not have to pull 380 tonds of material out from under our noses -- while completely rejecting the FAR more plauseable and better supported idea that the explosives were taken BEFORE we got there.

Thats because to admit that they might have been taken before we arrived is to remove blame from Bush - and after all, thats the point isnt it?  





You people? Can't he have 2 reasons. Or more even. "War on terror" and "keeping WMD from terrorists". I don;t really see the distinction though.


Actually there were three reasons.
Are you admitting that his argument for going to war in Iraq because of WMD was valid?



Yeah, but then there is no proof he wanted to do so (or ever did) so we have to assume he wasn't going to do that.

LOL
You HAVE to assume that he was never going to break out the explosives and give them to terrorists when you;re claiming that he did exactly that!!
LOL

Thats -amazing-.

But hey - when you start out with "I hate Bush" and work your argument backweards from there, I guess you get things like this.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2004, 03:18:07 pm »
It's a non issue.

It was a non issue when it happened.  It wasn't a surprise.  No one seems to have any 'proof' these weapons were there. No one seems to disprove they were taken to the desert and buried or to syria and stored.

All these "what if's" are useless.

Fortunately we don't have to find out what Saddam would have done or how many people he or his crazy sons would have killed in the future.

We took care of the problem.  

The Coalition will find the people that are causing the problems and correct it.  The new Iraqi government will also prevent this from happening.

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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2004, 03:53:19 pm »
Isn't that just the point that they didn't have it under control?

Thats the point you'd LIKE to make, but you cant.
You cant even show that the weapons were there when we arrived.
Youre premise is that a force of insurgents (that did not yet exist) used a force of at least 40 trucks that they did not have to pull 380 tonds of material out from under our noses -- while completely rejecting the FAR more plauseable and better supported idea that the explosives were taken BEFORE we got there.

Thats because to admit that they might have been taken before we arrived is to remove blame from Bush - and after all, thats the point isnt it?  
and you can't prove they weren't there after April 4th. So? I guess that's why Bush finally called for an investigation.

BTW where do you get that there were no insurgents? The US encountered plenty foreign soldiers during the invasion.

The point remains that these explosives are now most likely in the hands of terrorists when they weren't before the war.

Quote
You people? Can't he have 2 reasons. Or more even. "War on terror" and "keeping WMD from terrorists". I don;t really see the distinction though.


Actually there were three reasons.
Are you admitting that his argument for going to war in Iraq because of WMD was valid?
Did I say that? You asked me what Bush claimed were his reasons. Trying to drag me away from the topic again? You feel you lost the argument already?

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Yeah, but then there is no proof he wanted to do so (or ever did) so we have to assume he wasn't going to do that.

LOL
You HAVE to assume that he was never going to break out the explosives and give them to terrorists when you;re claiming that he did exactly that!!
LOL
Huh? You have the weirdest reasoning. They stole/looted the explosives. That's not exactly the same as that Saddam would have given it to them.

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But hey - when you start out with "I hate Bush" and work your argument backweards from there, I guess you get things like this.
I start out with the understanding that the US military was let down by an idiot (or rather two of them) at the helm yes. The military should at least have been aware that these facilities housed this stuff and checked if it was still there and if still there guard it.
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2004, 03:54:44 pm »
No one seems to have any 'proof' these weapons were there.
well there is proof they were there

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We took care of the problem.  
and created a much bigger one
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Re:Lost: 380 tons of high explosives - Last seen in Iraq
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2004, 04:07:14 pm »
and you can't prove they weren't there after April 4th. So? I guess that's why Bush finally called for an investigation.

Sure I can.  the ISG surveyed the facility in May 2003 and reported that the explosives were gone.   So, they were -certainly- missing my the time of the report, 27 May.



BTW where do you get that there were no insurgents?

In April/May 2003, we were fighting what was left of the Iraqi Army, and Ba'athists in Tikrit, et al.   The insurgency had not yet started.

Where do YOU get that the "insurgents" had a post-April 9 ability to lift 380 tons of material from a facility under US control?

Your entire argument is based on the idea that they could do this.



The point remains that these explosives are now most likely in the hands of terrorists when they weren't before the war.

The explosives were under Iraqi control, and were accessable to the Iraqis, to give to the terrorists or otherwise, at any time.



Did I say that? You asked me what Bush claimed were his reasons. Trying to drag me away from the topic again? You feel you lost the argument already

No, thats clearly where YOU are.



Huh? You have the weirdest reasoning. They stole/looted the explosives. That's not exactly the same as that Saddam would have given it to them.

Given that the explosixes disappeared between 15 March and 10 April....  who do you think took them?  Saddam.

 And if they were given to the terrorists - who do you think gave it to them?  Saddam.



I start out with the understanding that the US military was let down by an idiot (or rather two of them)...

Thanks for proving my point.