Question about legalities of Roms

[pmlabrier]

I am considering building a MAME box for resale and have some questions about the legalities of roms.  

I would like to provide more than freeware roms but I also do not want to lose everything I own to a lawsuit.

I realize that they can download anything they want after they buy it, but not everyone wants to or knows how to.

Technically you are supposed to own the ROM from the original arcade to be legit and for many classics these can be picked up pretty inexpensively off ebay.

What I am wondering is  it legit if you own another version of the game other than the original rom.   Say I provided new  versions of  Arcade Advanced , Namco Museum and MIDWAY GREATEST ARCADE HITS for the gameboy advanced.     Would that let me put the games included in those collections onto the mame cabnet following the spirit of the law if not the letter?  Would it at least give me a legitimate excuse?

Jjst trying to CMA,

Paul

[maraxle]

What I am wondering is  it legit if you own another version of the game other than the original rom.   Say I provided new  versions of  Arcade Advanced , Namco Museum and MIDWAY GREATEST ARCADE HITS for the gameboy advanced.     Would that let me put the games included in those collections onto the mame cabnet following the spirit of the law if not the letter?  Would it at least give me a legitimate excuse?

Sorry, but no.  Unless those GBA cartridges have the original ROMs on them, and you pull them from there, you're no better off than when you started.

[whammoed]

You can get some legal roms here:
http://www.starroms.com/
However you would want to wait to purchase them until you have made the sale and purchase them in your buyers name...I believe they are non-transferable.

[danny_galaga]

i've thought about this myself. although i cant imagine ever selling my machine, who knows? anyway, hypothetically you might ask the buyer for a delivery address   even if they are going to pick it up. then you could somehow suggest perhaps  , mysteriously a cd of ROMS etc might appear in their mail before they pick up the machine    . if they had the feeling that miraculously a cd might turn up in the mail  , they wouldnt have to worry about it  

damn, got something in my eye  

[GGKoul]

Selling Mame roms goes against the Mame project.

[Bgnome]

i believe the general stance of the community is against selling roms / including roms in the sale.  even if you buy the rereleased software, ie atari's greatest hits, etc., that doesn't entitle you to actually owning the hardcode off a chip from a game board, much less a license to sell said code.  as mentioned, starroms is a legal way to do it because they have a license, but once again, you cannot resell those roms.  if you really want to be the nice guy, you can tell him about the rom burner folks or just give him some roms.  that isnt altogether legal either, but giving it away and "selling" are two completely different things.

[wj2k3]

Isn't selling a machine with MAME on it a no no too?

[dag2000]

I think it unlikely that you'll find yourself sued.  

That said, I'm pretty sure that you are not allowed to sell a cab with mame installed, according to the Mame license.  The Mave dev team probably isn't coming after you but if you want to do it legit, I think what you would need to do Is sell a cab, cmputer installed and then explain to the owner what THEY need to do to download and install Mame.  You could even tell them about tombstone burners.

Perhaps someone could venture an opinion as to whether it is permissible to let them hire you to do that work.  I think the Mame license basically means that the user has to download the program(s) themselves.

[Crazy Cooter]

I wouldn't include them and I wouldn't send them a CD either.  I would tell them they can download them but they are similar to mp3's regarding copyright issues.  Let them decide.

We've got a good thing with this.  The companies that own the rights truely don't seem to mind that we do what we do.  But if somebody starts making money off something they shouldn't be, they might come down on us and shut MAME down.  So point them in the right direction and let sleeping dogs sleep.

[PacManFan]

I've ebay'd a mame cab before, and I clearly stated "No roms are included". One I made the sale, and the person came to pick it up from my house, I gave her a FREE hardrive that just happened to have a good setup on it

-PMF

[rchadd]

make it clear that you are only selling the cab itself (not including the software or roms).

provide mame on CD with instructions on how to install - you could even help the purchaser  to install it

provide purchaser information on where to purchase legal roms and information on how to acquire other roms (email address of romset burners).

just my suggestion

just noticed that this is your first post...just hope you are not a money bagger that see's mame cab building as a way to make a quick buck off the hard work of many others...

[sdrob04]

Anyone interested in this aspect of the hobby should be familiar with the following (issued by the Register of Copyrights in 2003):  

http://www.copyright.gov/1201/

I'm no lawyer, but item (3) sure seems to cover computer works in games that aren't manufactured anymore.  Having a copy of this document on hand might come in handy one day (!)

[brained]

Good one sdrob, we should carry that in our pockets

[RayB]

Sorry, but item #3 doesn't give anyone permission to distribute roms. The only way it applies to us is that it basically says is that using or writing an EMULATOR is not a violation of the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act).

Basically, that page is related to exceptions to the DMCA. It's not a blanket exemption to ALL copyright law. Under the DMCA it is illegal to reverse engineer, modify, or even in some ways discuss specifics of copyrighted software.

Section 3 on that page lists exemptions where it's "ok" to reverse engineer/modify/hack/ etc software. For example, the software in question relies on a hardware dongle to run, but the dongle no longer works, and the company that makes/supports the software/hardware is out of business. Under the DMCA it would be illegal for a programmer to go in and hack the software so that he can still use it without the dongle. But Section 3 makes it "ok" to do it under certain circumstances.

I find this only underlines how f'd up the DMCA is, as it acknowledges a need for people to change, examine or reprogram software they own. But it's the big corporations that don't like this, and it's they who pushed through the DMCA in the first place.

So anyways, as it applies to us, Section 3 of the DMCA is good in that it says that writing and using emulators for obsolete software/hardware is not illegal under the DMCA. Copying and using ROM data you don't own though, is still illegal even if the ROM is "obsolete".

~Ray

[markb]

At the local supermarket they sell an arcade package of 118 classic games for

[Tahnok]

At the local supermarket they sell an arcade package of 118 classic games for

[Patent Doc]

Sorry, but item #3 doesn't give anyone permission to distribute roms. The only way it applies to us is that it basically says is that using or writing an EMULATOR is not a violation of the DMCA (Digital Millenium Copyright Act).

Basically, that page is related to exceptions to the DMCA. It's not a blanket exemption to ALL copyright law. Under the DMCA it is illegal to reverse engineer, modify, or even in some ways discuss specifics of copyrighted software.

Nice explanation Ray.  I'm assuming your either an attorney or law student by your response.  I really couldn't agree more with you.  I think what everyone forgets when they see item 3 from 17 USC 1201 is that the application this has for MAME is for MAME itself not the games.  Basically, it would be contrary to established policy to ban reverse engineering altogether.  The very nature of reverse engineering often leads to advances in the field.  More often than not, the new product does not infringe because it achieves the goals of the original product by a differnet means.  This is where MAME fits in.  It provides a software solution to a largely hardware issue.  It allows programs, designed to be run on obsolete machine, on current computers.  Though, it allows the programs to be run, it does this differently than the original product... MAME does not copyanything.  The software (ie. the games), however, would be the same games on a new format.  This unfortunately is viewed as infringement.  Think copying an album (vinyl) onto a cassette.  It might be arguable if you own the eproms, but the area is VERY grey.  "Fair use" is still a hotly debated doctrine.

Personally, I would steer clear of selling any games apart from ones for which you've obtained a legal lisence.  Probably shouldn't sell the cab with MAME on it either.  You just don't want MAME developers to be tagged with inducement to infringe.  Though that kid in Denmark (or was it Norway) did successfully argue his DVD device wasn't creating an inducement to infringe.  Still better safe than sorry.  If they know about MAME, they can make their own choices and find ROM burners easily enough.

Just my .02

PatentDoc

[daywane]

I thought Mame was ok to pass along for free.( I am not selling any cabs) (nor plan to) When I got into emu's it was said emu's and ROMs were fine to pass out just not on the same disk or disks.
Now the ROMs rules have changed but as far as I know not the rules of Mame.
You can find many Mame arcades on ebay any day. All say no ROMs
I thought this was ok?.
Its the same as getting your ROMs from a burner . They are not selling the ROMs , but just the cost of the disk.
Even though there price is more than the disks, I figure the time involved the price is still great.
So... under those same rules if some one builds a arcade or mods a old one, hacks the controls and configures Mame for the PC ( I would use Mame 32 unless you got a ok from a FE author or built your own) and points some one to were they can get there own ROMs.
I see no problems
You are not selling Mame just a PC, Arcade, controllers and the work and time put into it. The Mame program is free.
just like Microsoft say's IE, Note Pad, Microsoft paint is free when you buy window. Oops you do not buy window just the right to use it. (Hmmm ever notice you must agree with the license agreement to install, But if you do not agree with it ,you still can not take windows back to the store and get your money back. Because you opened it.)

[Patent Doc]

(Hmmm ever notice you must agree with the license agreement to install, But if you do not agree with it ,you still can not take windows back to the store and get your money back. Because you opened it.)

NIce quirk of US contract law.  There are two contracts, one with the software manufacturer whose licensing agreement you often have to agree to for installation or its hidden in the box.  The other contract is with the distributor.  Both are valid and you accept them by installing the software and opening the package repsectively.  However, you can avoid this delima by asking to open the box in the store to "verify all the materials are enclosed."  You then look at the agreement,..if it is in paper form.  If you don't like it, you haven't bought it and can walk.  Your other option is to send it back to the manufacturer.  If you haven't installed, their contract with you forces them to refund your costs.  Of course avoiding the run around won't be easy.

[rchadd]

At the local supermarket they sell an arcade package of 118 classic games for

[daywane]

(Hmmm ever notice you must agree with the license agreement to install, But if you do not agree with it ,you still can not take windows back to the store and get your money back. Because you opened it.)

NIce quirk of US contract law.  There are two contracts, .....  Your other option is to send it back to the manufacturer.  If you haven't installed, their contract with you forces them to refund your costs.  Of course avoiding the run around won't be easy.

I just never thought of that... I will try it some time . Hay Microsoft... give me back my money. ( I am not being a wise guy ) I think I will try it wiyh my next Microsoft product just for the grins of it. Bill Gates just TICKS me off.

[shadowdrak]

I haven't read the license agreement in a while, but I remember at least a few said that they will refund your money if you send it back without installing it.  I was thinking about something though; I heard at one point that you could not agree to a contract you haven't read, nor can you sign something saying that you agree to one you haven't read.  How does that apply to the situations like on web pages, where they link to the agreement on a separate page?  If you don't click the link you can't agree to it right?  I guess I answered my own question.

[Tiger-Heli]

>I thought Mame was ok to pass along for free.( I am not selling any >cabs) (nor plan to) When I got into emu's it was said emu's and >ROMs were fine to pass out just not on the same disk or disks.

MAME is okay to pass along for free.  It is a violation of the license agreement to distribute MAME along with the ROMS (on the same disk, especially), to distribute a MAME variant without the modified source code, to distribute a binary of MAME which has the "nag" screens disabled (even though the official one does now), or to make a profit from MAME (sellling it).

The issue in this case is whether including MAME along with a cab (which will hopefully make a profit) constitutes "profiting from MAME" (I think not, but it's just my opinion) and whether selling a cab with MAME could be viewed as enticement to download ROMS and therefore get MAME in trouble (no more than MAME already does, IMHO).

>Now the ROMs rules have changed but as far as I know not the rules >of Mame.

The ROMs rules have not changed.  ROMS are copyrighted.  It was never legal to download ROMS or give them away, etc.  It's just lately the RIAA, etc. has been going after the websites that used to have them.

>You can find many Mame arcades on ebay any day. All say no ROMs
>I thought this was ok?.

It is, AFIAK.

>Its the same as getting your ROMs from a burner . They are not >selling the ROMs , but just the cost of the disk.
>Even though there price is more than the disks, I figure the time >involved the price is still great.

Yes, it is the same and it's also a violation of the copyright.  None of the burners own 5,000 arcade PCBs.  Even if they did, the PCB's did not include a license to copy and provide the ROM images to anyone who sent them a DVD.  The only thing is the actual license holders are either out of business, or don't want to bother with trying to enforce their rights, and it's in all of our best interests not to give them a reason to.

In response to the initial question, I recommend the following:

Set MAME up on the Cab (if it isn't already).  Delete the contents of the ROM directory, but leave the artwork, samples, etc. etc.

Copy the MAME and front end directory to a CD and delete them from the arcade machine.

Now when you sell the machine - tell them to drag the data from this free CD to the HD and MAME will be set-up.  (They might have to re-install the front-end if it uses the registry and I would tell them how to do this.)

Then explain the ROM situation (the MP3 example is pretty good) and tell them how to find a MAME burner if they want to have the ROMS.

Also to the original poster - I don't think an arcade purchaser is going to sue you for selling them a machine with a full set of ROMS on it.  Neither do I think the MAME dev's legal department will come knocking on your door.  Namco isn't likely to come after you either, but Namco might try to shut down the MAME project if this is too simple for people.

'Nuff said.

[Tiger-Heli]

What I am wondering is  it legit if you own another version of the game other than the original rom.   Say I provided new  versions of  Arcade Advanced , Namco Museum and MIDWAY GREATEST ARCADE HITS for the gameboy advanced.     Would that let me put the games included in those collections onto the mame cabnet following the spirit of the law if not the letter?  Would it at least give me a legitimate excuse?
Jjst trying to CMA,

Here's an fictituous analogy which might make this more clear to you.

RUSH produced a certain album which was never sold in the U.S.A. so (ignoring E-bay, etc.) I can't buy it, but I do have a friend with a copy of the CD.  I don't want to cheat RUSH out of the royalties, but I can't buy this particular item, so I buy the "Farewell to Kings" and "2112" CD's at the record store (in addition to the copies I already own), and then burn my friend's RUSH CD to my own CD-R so I can listen to it.

Did I violate RUSH's copyright on the import CD?  Yes.

Did I cheat RUSH out of some money?  Depends how you look at it.

Would a jury feel that even though I violated RUSH's copyright, I did do everything possible to ensure that they were not financially harmed by my actions?  Depends on the jury.

Now the problem with Arcade Roms is the situation is not nearly as cut and dried.  There was no actual copyright on the original item, so only someone's interpretation of intellectual property law applies.  Also in many cases the original game company went out of business, and the PC version was sold by someone like ActiVision who bought the rights (presumably) from whoever took over the original arcade company.  Whether buying from Activision increases the profits for the original company would depend on the terms of Acitvision's license agreement, which may be hard to discover.

FWIW.

[danny_galaga]

i find it hard to believe that anyone can misinterpret the law regarding ROMS. it is very obviously a violation to own or distribute them if you do not own the rights to them. apparently if you own an original PCB you have a bit more of a case but that's academic since most people with MAME would not have any (or many) PCBS. even if you did there is no licence to distribute ROMS. i think people have doubts because they feel a little guilty. certainly on my part, i'm thinking of getting some starroms (who DO have a licence to sell atari roms for home use) so that i don't feel i've completely ripped anyone off. theyre cheap although they only have ATARI. and ive been looking out for some PCBS too, although in this case it doesnt help the original licensee.
so don't kid yourselves, it's not a 'grey' area in legal terms. the only thing that makes it 'grey' is the fact that the games industry aren't quite as anal about this as the record industry and so long as not too many  idiots blatantly sell them on ebay etc then it will stay that way...

[RayB]

so don't kid yourselves, it's not a 'grey' area in legal terms. the only thing that makes it 'grey' is the fact that the games industry aren't quite as anal about this as the record industry and so long as not too many  idiots blatantly sell them on ebay etc then it will stay that way...

On the other hand, ROM sites are pretty hard to find, aren't they? Especially american ones. Most of them tend to be based out of bass-ackward countries with no regard for copyright law. What does that tell you? It means that companies and the SPA (software piracy association) ARE actively seeking to close down such sites where they can.

[danny_galaga]

hmmm, good point. my favourite one is in france although i wouldnt say its a backwards country (dartful dodger might think differently   ). but i often see people SELLING them on CD's on ebay which is just wrong. it's against the spirit of MAME and against the law. it would be akin to blatantly selling pirated music cd's on ebay...
just had a thought. just googled 'mame' with 'indonesia'. they are notorious for pirated music and movies. some sites popped up but my high-school indonesian is all but gone. salamat pagi! & siappa namma mu? that's about all i remember...

[RayB]

salamat pagi! & siappa namma mu? that's about all i remember...

What did you say about my mother!?!  

[danny_galaga]

salamat pagi! & siappa namma mu? that's about all i remember...

What did you say about my mother!?!  

hehe.

[neuromancer]

You can get some legal roms here:
http://www.starroms.com/
However you would want to wait to purchase them until you have made the sale and purchase them in your buyers name...I believe they are non-transferable.

Does anyone know if they really have a licence to distribute the roms?

Bob

[RayB]

Of course... They had press releases and were covered in all the game news when they launched. If they really didn't, Atari (Infogrames) or Midway (see I forget which of these owns the Arcade rights now) would have been all over them.

[daywane]

I thought if you had the cart ( nintendo or sega or any thing like it even pc baced) not just the arcade pcb you still could have the rom.
I do have a large collection of bought carts and cds. (playstation and PC)
I thought I was legal on those roms for mame.
like namco musems

[Sasquatch!]

I thought if you had the cart ( nintendo or sega or any thing like it even pc baced) not just the arcade pcb you still could have the rom.
I do have a large collection of bought carts and cds. (playstation and PC)
I thought I was legal on those roms for mame.
like namco musems

It varies from release to release and from company to company.  Check the EULA on your carts and see what they say.

[Craig]

Having mame roms without owning the original board is stealing. YES! It makes you a theif if you have all those roms without owning the hardware. Same goes with downloading illegal mp3, softwarez etc.. You're a theif. People try to justify it by saying that they are just downloading music/roms and it ain't harming the companies, but it is the truth. Copyrights last for a very long time.

[RayB]

I thought if you had the cart ( nintendo or sega or any thing like it even pc baced) not just the arcade pcb you still could have the rom.

No way. Having Pac-Man for the Atari 2600 doesn't entitle you to the ROM for the Arcade version. They may share the same name, but they were still two seperate and unique products sold by different companies and programmed by seperate teams of people.

[MonitorGuru]

Mame's (and all emulators) days are numbered.   Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but it's just the plain hard truth.  Latest article today.

Link:
http://news.com.com/Justice+Dept.+wants+new+antipiracy+powers/2100-1028_3-5406654.html?tag=nefd.top


Snipits:
"The U.S. Justice Department recommended a sweeping transformation of the nation's intellectual-property laws"

"In an extensive report released Tuesday, senior department officials endorsed a pair of controversial copyright bills strongly favored by the entertainment industry that would criminalize "passive sharing" on file-swapping networks and permit lawsuits against companies that sell products that "induce" copyright infringement. "

""The department is prepared to build the strongest, most aggressive legal assault against intellectual-property crime in our nation's history," Attorney General John Ashcroft"

"would create a new crime of the "importation" of pirated products"

[Tiger-Heli]

I still say this is much more gray than people interpret it as.

Case in point.  Assuming I own the board from a Pac-Man cab, presumably, I could image the ROM chip (using hardware like Guru has), burn this to a file, and use that with MAME.  There is no agreement on the game board that says that if I own the board, I can download/get a copy of the ROM image that someone else burned off their board and use that with MAME.

OTOH, nothing says I can't.  What I mean is - if I buy an album, or buy a piece of software, there are copyright statements and EULA's that specify that I cannot freely distribute unauthorized copies of the product.

Arcade Roms never said this.  So what you are dealing with are intellectual property laws, and existing copyrights which inherently belong to the developer, even though they were never exercised or officially registered.

[MonitorGuru]

You can get some legal roms here:
http://www.starroms.com/
However you would want to wait to purchase them until you have made the sale and purchase them in your buyers name...I believe they are non-transferable.

Does anyone know if they really have a licence to distribute the roms?

Bob

And that's the problem... They are non transferable, yet everyone is "selling" them on ebay along with Mame installed claiming they're fully licenced.  Humm buy a set (no, not really, just download them free) then install on many machines and sell the machines claiming their licened.  Good enough for ebay I guess since Namco/Nintendo/Midway/Atari are no longer shutting down auctions, or eBay is ignoring them.

[Chris]

Arcade Roms never said this.  So what you are dealing with are intellectual property laws, and existing copyrights which inherently belong to the developer, even though they were never exercised or officially registered.

Some of them did, mostly more recent ones, in the manual.  Williams Pinball ROMs include a license that explicitly limits their use to the supplied Williams hardware.  The earliest ROMS, though, I doubt had any kind of license, but more attention was paid to the legalities once bootlegs started appearing.

[Tiger-Heli]

Arcade Roms never said this.  So what you are dealing with are intellectual property laws, and existing copyrights which inherently belong to the developer, even though they were never exercised or officially registered.

Some of them did, mostly more recent ones, in the manual.

Okay, I was thinking more of the original arcade roms from the 80's.

Williams Pinball ROMs include a license that explicitly limits their use to the supplied Williams hardware.

Which is interesting b/c (I won't post the link, but) I can go to Williams official website and download most of their pinball roms with no questions asked.

The earliest ROMS, though, I doubt had any kind of license, but more attention was paid to the legalities once bootlegs started appearing.

And again, I think the bootlegs were prosecuted under intellectual property infractions -

Differences - Under U.S. copyright law, if say you post an copyrighted image on a website, for example, I believe you could be fined around $100,000 per image by the copyright holder.

If you steal someone else's IP, I believe you can only be prosecuted to the extent that they can show loss of revenue from the infraction - i.e. in the case of arcade roms, if they really wanted to, the IP owners could probably come after us for the value of an arcade board containing the ROMS on E-bay (minus the value of the other chips on the board) so usually $10-15.

IANAL (fortunately), though.