Yet Another: "Does this sound right?" Control Panel Thread

[StarChild]

Hi Everyone

I've been lurking around for a few weeks since I discovered the wonders of MAME a few weeks ago.  I've been carefully designing my cabinet and researching my control panel and I think I've finally come to my final configuration.  I was hoping I could get some "buy off" on what I'm planning to do with my controls to ensure it's feasible and realistic.  <grin>

So here's the rundown:

It's going to be one of those "most-in-one" style panels.  it's my first cab and I want to prove the concept (to myself) and then I might consider building something fancy with swapping/modular panels.  So here's what I'm considering along with my thoughts.

Windows XP will be my OS (it's what I know)

I-PAC4  USB

Sticks 1 & 2  (inside pair)
T-Stik Plus to give me the 4/8 way switching on the fly
7 Buttons in the "Fighting/NeoGeo" layout

Sticks 3 & 4 (outside pair)
Happs Rotary Sticks (Ikari Warriors!)
4 Buttons

The Happs USB trackball
(will also act as the mouse for the OS)

Oscar's Vortex Spinner and Tempest Knob w/USB interface
(If I understand correctly, XP will see this as the same control X <or> Y axis the mouse uses)

Buttons for:
Players 1-4
4 Administrative
(exit, enter, ok, pause or somesuch)

Analog Stick
(prob a Sidewinder)

Druin's Rotary stick interface
(I think I've exceeded the limit of the IPAC if I'm counting buttons and sticks correctly in regards to using the native 12+12 inputs for the two rotaries)

I'll prob use a 4 entry coin slot with the reject-coin-button-as-credit mod done to reduce the clutter on the panel.

I'll be entirely USB with (most likely) a wireless keyboard/mouse interface which can be tucked away and stored seperately from the cab.

Am I forgetting anything or does this sound to be sound/complete?

I'd really appreciate any input or insight some of you experienced folk might offer.  I'd not bother asking, but as you can see...this is going to hold a moderately heavy pricetag for all of this stuff and I'd like to do it (mostly) right the first time.  <grin>

-*

[Trimoor]

I've been lurking around for a few weeks

So that was you? I thought I saw some myterious shadows lately....

Welcome to the forum. I'm Trimoor, an evil genius bent on taking over the world.

Before you get rotary sticks, check out my BYO rotary stick mod. (I'm terribly vain.)
http://www.trimoor.com/rotary_joystick/index.htm

Also, most everyone will tell you not to use 12 position rotary sticks.
They are very difficult to interface. (Not impossible, there are a few guides floating around.
I reccomend optical rotary.
This may also solve your ipac problem.

Please, please don't put O and K buttons on the panel.
There are other, better ways of getting around this. (Do a search.)

XP sees all mice as one single mouse. If you move two at once, they 'fight' to control the cursor. MAME can see them seperately.

[cdbrown]

If you get the optical rotaries then also get an Optipac from ultimarc.  A nice little interface for all you optical devices.

That sounds like a lot for a control panel.  Make sure to carefully lay it out to ensure everything will fit and that you're not uncomfortabel using the controls.  Do a full size mock-up on cardboard to really test it out.

Also, if you want a panel with everything on it then go for it.  Some people will try and cut you down by saying you've got too much but you said that it's going to be a "most-in-one" panel.  The most important thing is make sure all the controls are usable ergonomically.

Good luck
-cdbrown

[danny_galaga]

perhaps a quick sketch to illustrate the layout of your control panel? some of us are a little slow and need a purdy pikcha to help

[StarChild]

I've been lurking around for a few weeks

So that was you? I thought I saw some myterious shadows lately....

Welcome to the forum. I'm Trimoor, an evil genius bent on taking over the world.

Before you get rotary sticks, check out my BYO rotary stick mod. (I'm terribly vain.)
http://www.trimoor.com/rotary_joystick/index.htm

Also, most everyone will tell you not to use 12 position rotary sticks.
They are very difficult to interface. (Not impossible, there are a few guides floating around.
I reccomend optical rotary.
This may also solve your ipac problem.

Please, please don't put O and K buttons on the panel.
There are other, better ways of getting around this. (Do a search.)

XP sees all mice as one single mouse. If you move two at once, they 'fight' to control the cursor. MAME can see them seperately.

Thanks, Trimoor!  hehehe, that was prob me you saw.  I don't sign up for a lot of forums online, but you guys seem like a friendly bunch and I've been itching for a project and 4 player Gauntlet has been calling my name

I'd been debating on the rotary vs. optical and I think you've just pushed into the other (right;)) direction.  I wasn't sure how the optipac interface would work in the setup. but it sounds as if they would act as a "spinner" style control with an control axis via the two serial ports on the machine to keep them seperated.  (I think?)  From what I've been reading, this will give me all the joys of the rotary sticks, but also the extra SNK game which uses the smoother interface.  (name eludes me at the moment?)

LOL, don't worry...I won't do the 'O' & 'K' buttons.  I figured there's a way around it...I just hadn't discovered it yet.  I'll keep poking around...learning more and more each day.  <snicker>

BTW, that mouse/joystick mod is very cool

-*

If you get the optical rotaries then also get an Optipac from ultimarc.  A nice little interface for all you optical devices.

That sounds like a lot for a control panel.  Make sure to carefully lay it out to ensure everything will fit and that you're not uncomfortabel using the controls.  Do a full size mock-up on cardboard to really test it out.

Also, if you want a panel with everything on it then go for it.  Some people will try and cut you down by saying you've got too much but you said that it's going to be a "most-in-one" panel.  The most important thing is make sure all the controls are usable ergonomically.

Good luck
-cdbrown

Thanks, cdbrown  I think I'm going to go with the opticals instead as you guys are suggesting w/the optipac.

I'm definitely going to do the cardboard mock up of the panel.  It sounds big, but I'm going to use a 27" TV as the monitor, so a larger panel won't look TOO awkward.  I'll prob see how it all fits on one level and maybe toy with the double-decker scheme like the Supercade utilizes (http://www.cybercoma.com/supercade/)

I've got almost all of the controls possible here in this config except for the steering wheel(s), light guns and dual trackballs, yoke.  There's enough spinners on it for someone to play "etch-a-sketch" : (the visual on that kills me), but it's prob a waste of time to try.

I'm sure when this is all done and I get bored again, a super sprint/ivan stewart's, etc.. type cab will be in the cards, but for right now the "versatility" of this one should hold me off  

-*

[StarChild]

perhaps a quick sketch to illustrate the layout of your control panel? some of us are a little slow and need a purdy pikcha to help

<

* StarChild grab a stone and begins drawing on the cave wall>

Something like that?  Cab is going to be about 30-32" wide (still drafting it) and I'd expect the control panel to easily be able to extrude 4-6" on each side without looking "cheesy".  That should give me an awful lot of real estate to play with...although the mock up will tell all.  

-*

[cdbrown]

Things to think about -
1. what buttons will be used when you are using the spinner or analog stick?
2. Ipac has the SHIFT function which means you don't need the admin buttons - you just need to remember what the combination is to cause ESC, PAUSE etc
3. Are you having player 1-4 start and credit buttons (ie 8 buttons total) as they are supported by the ipac4?

Check my cab out - 4-player with a 27" TV.  It's a monster and I only have sticks and buttons on the panel.  However I do have 2 more panels planned for the future - a dual trackball panel and a dual spinner/dual t-stick panel.

Cheers
-cdbrown

[StarChild]

Things to think about -
1. what buttons will be used when you are using the spinner or analog stick?
2. Ipac has the SHIFT function which means you don't need the admin buttons - you just need to remember what the combination is to cause ESC, PAUSE etc
3. Are you having player 1-4 start and credit buttons (ie 8 buttons total) as they are supported by the ipac4?

Check my cab out - 4-player with a 27" TV.  It's a monster and I only have sticks and buttons on the panel.  However I do have 2 more panels planned for the future - a dual trackball panel and a dual spinner/dual t-stick panel.

Cheers
-cdbrown

1) ahhh...I forgot the 3 mouse buttons from the trackball are going to be above the trackball in my crude sketch.  Those should suffice as buttons for the rotary and the analog stick (I would think anyways)

2) Yeah...the IPAC shift keys should come in handy.  I'm also kicking around the idea of not placing buttons on the control panel unless necessary.  I don't need the "esc" key on the panel, for instance.  In fact, adding that to the panel seems to be taking an unnecessary risk for those "wild moments".  I'm still in my early planning stages though, so I haven't decided on which keys I'll need and whatnot.  I'm thinking at least ESC, Enter...sheesh, do I need anything else I'd be using often enough to map to a button?  I'd prob pull out the keyboard for Tab and whatnot.  <shrug>

3) So far my plan is to use the 1-4 player buttons on the main panel.  Maybe I should do them on the front of the control panel face (perpendicular to the ground)?  That would save more surface area for real controls, and put them in easy reach of each player without any annoying reaches...   Coin reject is going to my credit buttons along with the "real" coin mechanism.  I'll prob just play with the idea of adding a switch to cut out the "free" credits so the coin mechanism actually works as it's supposed to (just for grins)  hehe

Your cab looks great!    I can't wait until I get it to that stage, but at the same time I'm going to really enjoy doing it.  I'm going to do my best to make my cabinet good at multiple things, so I'm really curious to see how it turns out.  Using the TV allows for a nice console connection and there's no reason I can't have 5.1 sound and a wireless lan while I'm at it.  

-*

[DougHillman]

A few comments.  

Along with Druin's interface, my Happ's 12 position Rotary sticks work great.  And they only take up 2 slots each on the I-Pac, not 12.  (Well, 6 total actually.  4 directions and 2 rotate.)  They just send a clockwise/counterclockwise command, not a specific position.

I'm an advocate of administration buttons.  Much easier, quicker, and user friendly than using the shift button capabilities of the I-Pac.  I've got Enter, Esc, and Pause on my cabinets.   You can turn off some of the "OK" screens in the mame.ini file, and the P1 joystick left/right to pass the ones that are mandatory.

Make sure you check the size of any doors you may need to move your cabinet through now or in the future.  32" may be too much.  Alot of standard doors are only 30" wide.   Check out the last cabinet I built in this thread http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=23028   It's about the size that you're thinking of for yours.  30" wide with about a 6" CP overhang on each side.  

I think you can find a link to the Adobe Illustrator template I used in laying out the CP in that thread as well.  May find it useful in deciding if you have room to place your Player Start, coin, and admin buttons on the CP face as well.  (IMO, you'll have plenty of room.)

[StarChild]

Hi Doug

Thanks for the tips.  For some reason, exploring the mame.ini hadn't even occured me yet.  lol  <slaps himself>  I'll explore in there and see what I can find to tune things even better <grin>

One of my concerns which was tilting me around on the optical vs. rotary was the way Druin's Interface works as far as sending signals to the ipac.  I know in the config for the games which actually use the rotary...it's simply a matter of a keypress for each rotation.  

If I spin the spin or twist it a few positions in a smooth motion, will it "keep up" with my movements?  If it were laggy at all, I'd probably be frustrated with it.  I really would like to use the rotary sticks just because I like the "click click click" as it twists into each position, but I'd rather go with the optical if it will work smoothly.

I measured a few doorways in my place and came up with a number for my doorways, but if the standard doorway is 30, I should probably keep it around there.  I'd REALLY hate to move and discover my cab has to live in the garage or something like that.  hehe  I'm sure I'll reconsider and make it as narrow as is feasible.  

I've been using a few cabs and control panels as inspiration in my design and your thread there was one of them.    I really like your setup you have going there.  <grin>

I think I have everything down for the most part...I'm just curious on the "latency" between the inputs on the rotary/druin and the response on the screen.

Thanks again for the input, everyone...it's much appreciated!  It's a semi-big investment getting all these controls and I don't want to mess it up

-*

[DanteBK]

Justifying admin buttons:

P for Pause for MAME games -- a must! Sometimes things come up that you can't ignore, i.e. the spouse, the bathroom, the phone.

Tab for Options -- not just for MAME but you can make it the select button for Super Nintendo, Nintendo, whatever if you want console games.

Enter for Options -- again, Start button for console games, plunger for Visual Pinball.

Esc -- for everything!

If you don't want it all cluttering up your panel, think about placing them on the side of the CP box under the panel lip. If you plan on playing a lot of pinball, place the Enter button on the CP box front-right for real plunger-like action.

[StarChild]

Perfect  Thanks, Dante.  I knew I needed four buttons, but you've cleared up the four I need.  .  I kept thinking, "...hrmmm...enter....uhhhh....esc....?"  :

-*

[DougHillman]

Perfect  Thanks, Dante.  I knew I needed four buttons, but you've cleared up the four I need.  .  I kept thinking, "...hrmmm...enter....uhhhh....esc....?"  :

-*

Even many of us who are admin button proponents are a bit wary of putting a "TAB" key on there though.  Too much possibility for untrained hands to mess things up.

[StarChild]

I think ESC and TAB shouldn't be on the direct control panel surface, but I think they should be buttons.  Perhaps extending them to the top of the cab above the marquee would be a good spot?  That way you don't hit them accidently in "spirited" play.

Of course, MHO.  

-*

[Kremmit]

I'll throw another vote to the Mechanical Rotary sticks instead of the opticals.  

Sure, you can play the games that origiinally used mechanicals with the opticals, and if you never played them much "in the wild", then you probably won't mind.  But since you said:

I really would like to use the rotary sticks just because I like the "click click click" as it twists into each position

-I'm going to assume you did play these games back when.  I know I wouldn't play as well without the clicks, and even more importantly, the feel of rotating an LS-30 to the next position.

This thread:
http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17448
contains discussion about the optical vs. rotary debate, and about the advantages/disadvantages of hooking up through a Druin board or directly connecting the rotary switch inputs to you ipac-4.  There's also some talk about using Happ Mechanicals instead of LS-30 mechanicals that may apply to you since you're planning to make these your primary sticks for players 3 & 4.

I just scored Druin interface goodness off of ebay, and I have an Ipac-4.  I'm planning to wire my LS-30s directly to the ipac, AND to the Druin board, since only some of the games that need LS-30s work with the direct connect method (so far).  For the games that won't work with direct connect, I'll use the Druin board.  For the ones that can handle direct input, controls that won't be used during Ikari-type games will also be wired to the rotary output of the LS-30s.  Then, either an alternate ipac config or a key remap for those specific games should get it working- I hope.

All of that said, others will disagree with me and reccomend the opticals- and you may agree with them.  If you do go that route, the Opti-pac you buy to interface them will allow you to interface your other optical devices through it as well, so you don't have to buy the USB trackballs and spinners.  In particular, Happ sells trackballs withoug the USB interface for considerably less, right now these 3" balls are on sale for a ton less than the 3" usb model:
http://www.happcontrols.com/trackballs/56010011.htm
You also have more choices when you go shopping for trackballs & spinners on ebay.

In the end, it's your project, so you'll have to decide what will make you happiest.  Whichever way you go, good luck!

[Trimoor]

I think MAME should just revert to the original 12 input for ikari wrriors.  It seems silly to convert from absolute to relative, and back to absolute again.

What would be best is to build a stick with both 12 way and optical sensors on it.
Then you just need some sort of lever to turn off the mechanical resistance and clicking.

Similar to the switchable 4-8 way sticks.

[Kremmit]

Trimoor:  Absolutely agree with you, on both counts.  

I guess way back when the MAME devs were adding the mehaniical rotary games, they thought nobody'd ever be wiring ls30s to their software.  It seems like it should be easy enough fix the code, but since I'm not a programmer I guess I should shut up about that.  Mabye when U_Rebelscum gets the rest of the games working with direct connect in Analog MAME+, (hint, hint- you listening, Robin?) the MAME devs will see fit to incorporate his code to the official MAME build.

As for the rotary combo sticks, I've spent some time thinking about how to do that very hack.  I started to describe it in detail, but it got really long, and we probably shouldn't threadjack Starchild's control panel discussion that badly.    The basic idea is to combine your mod and the pulley system from Mr. Curmudgeon's.  Mount the optical encoder to the bottom of the shaft via your method, and a true mechanical rotary switch to the pulley system.  Or mabye the other way around.

[StarChild]

lol  

You know, a threadjacking might in order because this is one of the areas I'm most curious about.  All my control panel questions are pretty much answered, but I still had questions on the rotary sticks.  sooo....THREADJACK APPROVED!

I used to go down to the supermarket on my bike when I was young to play Ikari Warriors there.  Now, I can do okay with the sticks not being yellow, but the clicking was important to me.   I was a bit disappointed with the lack of click on the opticals, but they were do-able.  Now you guys kicked me in the butt to do what I should have done...figured out a way to make 'em work.  hehehe

I originally wanted to do what your plan is, Kremmit, and wire them up to the ipac, but even using an ipac4 I was "out of inputs" with what I'd planned (see first post in thread for inputs).  Something I hadn't really considered was doubling the inputs up.  You can do that, right?  Another idea I had to do this was to buy an additional ipac2 strictly to wire up the rotaries.  (lol, you can do that too, right?) If I go this route, however, am I going to run into the same problem I would with "doubling up" the controls on the ipac4 (running out of keys to bind to) or can I bind them to different "non-shifted" key strokes without affecting the rest of the inputs?  (bleh, that's a bit hard to understand...hope it makes sense)

I imagine as MAME progresses, rotary funtionality will probably improve (Ikari looks like the guys are on meth they way they spaz out) and I'd rather not rewire the whole thing with each release.  The primary reason for me going with the rotary and Druin's board was to reduce the rotary input from 12 to 2 per stick.  If I could have it both ways on my big control panel, it sure would be nice...  

-*

[Kremmit]

...Something I hadn't really considered was doubling the inputs up.  You can do that, right?  Another idea I had to do this was to buy an additional ipac2 strictly to wire up the rotaries.  (lol, you can do that too, right?) If I go this route, however, am I going to run into the same problem I would with "doubling up" the controls on the ipac4 (running out of keys to bind to) or can I bind them to different "non-shifted" key strokes without affecting the rest of the inputs?  (bleh, that's a bit hard to understand...hope it makes sense)

First off, sure, you could buy a 2nd ipac2, and there shouldn't be any problem assigning it's inputs to different keys- after all, there are (at least) 101 keys on a standard keyboard, and 64 + 32 is only 96.  But why spend the dough if you dont' have to- you're already buying an ipac4 and a druin's here!  

Of course, I should point out that I haven't actually done this yet, so I can't guarantee it'll work.  But I've seen several posts from other members that are wiring more than one control to the same inputs, and not heard of any problems from that.  After all, electrically speaking, the ipac's inputs are really just a broken connection.  Theoretically, I don't see why you couldn't wire an infinite # of controls to the same inputs.  Which switch closes the circuit doesn't matter to the ipac.  The real world limit will of course be that they can't be controls that are used at the same time- If you connected to, say, the same inputs as the fire, grenade, coin, & player start buttons you would be using during rotary games, then you're hosed.  That's why you may want to consider connecting your rotaries as player 1 & 2 instead- then you can use the player 3 & 4 stick & button inputs for your rotary switch inputs, as there are no 3 or 4 player mechanical rotary games (as far as I know).  Of course, you may not want to use yellowtop LS-30s for p1 & 2 during non-rotary game play, which is why the Happ variety starts to look more attractive.  Or, you could do what I'm planning to do, and go with a modular control panel that allows you to swap the rotaries in and out at will.

Whatever you go with, good luck!