Major Havoc roller repro - need input

[OSCAR]

I just posted this message in RGVAC and I would also like to get your opinions, too.  Granted this type of specialized controller has a very limited market, but since I am very likely to only do a single run, I might as well make it the best I can...


I've had my shop drawings for the MH roller complete and on the shelf for
about a year now, but because I've been super busy lately I never got around
to having a batch made.  In the coming weeks it looks like I will have some
free time, so I am revisiting this project.  Before I just send out my
drawings for fab, I would like to give you guys a little heads up on what I
want to do, and get some opinions from you all to see if I am heading down
the right path with this.

One of the other reasons I haven't made any of these yet was because I wasn't
sure how I wanted to fab the top plate.  The problem I've been stumbling
over is how to have the ears (pieces on each end of the roller) integrated
into the top plate.  I want to make these available as economically as
possible, but having the ears machined as a single piece with the top plate
is not very cost effective.  First off, I'm planning on having the entire
top plate machined from aluminum stock and black anodized.  So I would have
to start with a 1/2" thick plate, and then hog down about 95% of that to
about 1/16" thick.  So not only would I be paying for all the material that
ends up on the shop floor, but I would also be paying for the time to put it
there.  Most authentic, but also the most costly approach.

To make the assembly cheaper, I then thought about eliminating the ears
altogether.  That would make the assembly look like the prototype photos on
Clay's site.  This approach would be considerably cheaper as I could have
the entire top plate CNC laser cut with just some c'sinking and tapping.

Another idea that came to me was to have the ears laser cut separately and
then screwed into the top plate with some c'sunk flathead screws.  Again,
these pieces would be black anodized aluminum to match the top plate.  This
would preserve the look and functionality of the ears, and should be more
economical than machining the entire top plate out of a single piece of
aluminum plate.

Here are some screen shots of my shop drawings to help clarify:

1-piece machined top plate section
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/3-top_plate-original.gif

Ear pieces screwed to top plate
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/2-ears-detail.gif
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/4-assembly1.gif

Shop detail drawing
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/1-roller_shop-detail.gif


Another thing I am looking to do is to make an adjustable and universal
optic board bracket.  My design would allow for an original Atari, Happ, or
my own optic board to be used with the controller.  I would ship the
controller with my own optic board attached, but the customer could put
their own Atari or Happ board on it if they chose to do so.  For those not
familiar with my optic board, it is electrically compatible with the
original Atari board but the pinout and pin header are both different.

Screen shot showing both an Atari and OC optic board on the bracket.
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/5-opticbracket-assy1.gif

Side view of the adjustable bracket (in yellow)
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/6-opticbracket-assy2.gif


Those are the only cosmetically-obvious changes I'm considering making to
the original design.  Of course I will be maintaining the classic green
roller and it will have the dual shaft & ball bearings, as well as have the
correct mounting hole dimensions so it fits a MH cp.  The housing itself
would be cut from galv sheet and CNC bent, and the bearing retainers would
be machined from CRS stock.

I would appreciate any feedback on my proposed designs and I am certainly
open to different ideas, anything that would help get this off the ground.
The most helpful info I'm looking from you guys would be:

1.  What would be the make or break sell price for these?  Obviously I want
to make them as cost effective as possible, and I am not looking to make a
lot of $$ off these.  This is a project that I just want to do, and not for
monetary gain.  Quite honestly, I would most likely just tack on about 5%
over fab costs.  It is very likely that I have to go out of the country next
week due to my real job for about 7 days, and I am planning on sending out
the controller details for quotes when I get back.

2.  Which ear design would be most desirable; one piece machined plate,
screw-on ears, or no ears at all?  Based on my experience, I would say that
the cost would go down on the above choices, respectively.  Just to pull
numbers out of the air, let's say that the one-piece design came back with a
complete assembly sell price of $110, would the screw-on ears be a better
option if that design was $90?  Those numbers are totally hypothetical, I'm
just looking for opinions now if how the ears are mounted to the top plate
would be a major impact, or if they could be possibly eliminated altogether
if the price was right?


I anticipate this would be a one-time run of about 50 units.  Maybe give or
take a little based on the pricing I get back from the fabricators.  I am
not considering doing a pre-order on these.  If the pricing comes back on
these and I think it looks favorable, I am just going to go ahead with it.
For anyone that is wondering, the number range I have in my head is around
$90 - $100 for a complete unit, but I would love to get that number down if
I can.  That's why I'm asking you guys if you have any ideas to help out.


Thanks!


Kelsey

[saint]

Original controller for those (like me) who didn't know what it looked like:

(Image from Basement Arcade btw)

[OSCAR]

Thanks, John.  

Here's the link to Clay's prototype that referred to in the post, too:

http://www.multigame.com/mh_controller.html

[sirwoogie]

I remember when basementarcade sold these.  The KLOV site doesn't have a great picture. See this one:

edit: See above posts for images

They don't have any more, but they did list $125 as the sale at the time. If you get under that, you'll have people happy.

As for the design, I would use a screw-on ear style. Gives the most options for CP design. I don't have any great advice on the machinging aspects other than inferring what the layout will be.

Your universal bracket idea is intriguing. I look forward to seeing the finished product.

[spidermonkey]

YESSS! my wish may finally come true ! . Oscar, I too like the screw on ears as well. I don't want to know how much a one peice machined plate with the ears integrated into it would cost as I'm sure the amount wouldn't be pretty. A one peice unit is definately a custom request so you would be paying a premium to the machinist just for his sheer "know how" and labor. A screw on ear design however would probably be easier to accomplish for an average joe and the machinist knows this. Designing the mounting plate with seperate screw on roller supports/ears doesn't demand nearly as much machining skills as a one peice unit so the machinist should be able to give you a more reasonable price since his skills won't be tested as much.
Man I hope this really does happen.  Count me in for one.

[Generic Eric]

I am sorry, I might just be slow....

Are the "ear pieces" supposed to screw on through the top of the CP?

[mahuti]

All I know is that I'm in if the cost is around $100 or below.

[Tommy Boy]

I'm curious, are there any other games (besides MH) that this control would be useful for?

[OSCAR]

I am sorry, I might just be slow....

Are the "ear pieces" supposed to screw on through the top of the CP?

Not your fault, my drawings and description probably aren't clear enough to describe what I meant by that.

The ears would have little tabs that nested under the top plate of the controller.  The top plate would have c'sunk holes so the ears could be screwed into the top plate with some flat head machine screws for a flush fit.  Then the entire assembly would fit snug up against the underside of the control panel and the screws for the ears would not even be visible from the top.  A point to note here is that this controller is designed for a metal cp, like the original.  I'm sure clever installers could figure a way to install it into a wood control panel, though, it's been done before with other types of controls.  


Tommy Boy - Probably not many.  Since the roller is basically a spinner turned on its side, it would work in place of a spinner for spinner games, but some spinner games like Tempest or Arkanoid would probably be a bit awkward to play that way.  On the other hand, some games like Camel Try might be kinda neat to play with a roller instead of a spinner, but I'm just speculating....  One of those things that you wouldn't really know unless you tried it, I guess.  That's one of the nice things about a MAME cab, you have the opportunity to try various controls on different games, where that would be more difficult to do with a dedicated machine.

[telengard]

I'm curious, are there any other games (besides MH) that this control would be useful for?

Kick, Kick Man, and one other game had a similar control, I think it's called Astro Fighter.  They have it at funspot.  It is a little more narrow but it is a wheel that only goes horizontal.  You could probably play these games with it.

[XtraSmiley]

All I know is that I'm in if the cost is around $100 or below.

[froggerman]

I'm curious, are there any other games (besides MH) that this control would be useful for?

Here is what I found at the controls.dat website:

Roller(Horizontal)
   
Major Havoc (rev 3)   mhavoc
Moonwar                       moonwar
Kick (upright)                kick

[OSCAR]

A friend of mine stopped by with a Kick controller so I could install one of my optic boards on it.  It looks like a trackball, but it is only single axis.  It has an axle that goes right through the ball, so it acts exactly like a roller.


Also, to better help explain the "ears" thing, I uploaded a couple screenshots of my 3D part model.  That should explain it better than the lousy shop drawings.

http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/model3d-1.gif
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/model3d-2.gif

[spidermonkey]

Yeh you're thinking of "Moonwar" Telengard. I played it at Funspot too. The roller on that game is like the size of a hockey puck on edge or even a bit bigger. It could probably be played with a M.H. controller if the sensitivity was turned up to compensate for the smaller roller. Same with "Kickman"

[Generic Eric]

A friend of mine stopped by with a Kick controller so I could install one of my optic boards on it.  It looks like a trackball, but it is only single axis.  It has an axle that goes right through the ball, so it acts exactly like a roller.


Also, to better help explain the "ears" thing, I uploaded a couple screenshots of my 3D part model.  That should explain it better than the lousy shop drawings.

http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/model3d-1.gif
http://www.oscarcontrols.com/mhavoc/model3d-2.gif

Ok,  now I am with you.  Looks like a solid product.

[ChadTower]

I, Robot uses that type of controller.

[crashwg]

I, Robot uses that type of controller.

I, Robot uses a hall effect joy...



If I were to buy one of these repro rollers, which I'm fairly confident I will end up doing, I would pay an extra $20 for the "no ear" version.

Do what you want to though, I'm sure you'll sell them all anyways.

[ChadTower]

I, Robot uses that type of controller.

I, Robot uses a hall effect joy...

 

[NoOne=NBA=]

Oscar,

Two concerns I have with the proposed designs are optic clearance and overlay mounting.

In looking at the two "finished" designs, and your proposals, I don't see any way to mount them in a wood CP without using a separate mounting plate.
If they are going to require a separate mounting plate anyway, I would think it would be more cost effective to enlarge the existing top plate, and make the screws that hold the top plate to the bottom assembly screw from the BOTTOM UP.

This would allow the mounting plate to be installed BEFORE the roller assembly (similar to a Happ trackball install).
With only the mounting plate installed, people would be able to install their overlay, and then trim the overlay using the mounting plate as a guide, prior to attaching the roller assembly.

My only other concern is that the machining be tight enough to prevent pinch between the roller and top plate.
(My hands still haven't fully recovered from a few late-70's/early-80's Atari Football games).

[mahuti]

I would have to agree with that. I have a wood CP, and no plans to get a metal one. This would be of great help to me for installation

[Kremmit]

I am down for one of these.  Ears, no ears, bolt-on ears, whatever.  

That said, for me, price takes priority over authenticity.  I don't have a dedicated MH cab sitting here waiting for a roller, I'm just gonna hook it up to my MAME cab- so I'd go for a no ear/bolt-on ear solution if there was a significant price break.  As long as the roller's got the right weight, the bearings the right resistance, so it FEELS right, I don't care if all the parts LOOK exactly the same.

I also agree with NoOne=NBA about making the top plate modification for wood panel users, as I'll be using wood.  

[usedelectronics]

I am down for one of these.  Ears, no ears, bolt-on ears, whatever.  

That said, for me, price takes priority over authenticity.  I don't have a dedicated MH cab sitting here waiting for a roller, I'm just gonna hook it up to my MAME cab- so I'd go for a no ear/bolt-on ear solution if there was a significant price break.  As long as the roller's got the right weight, the bearings the right resistance, so it FEELS right, I don't care if all the parts LOOK exactly the same.

I also agree with NoOne=NBA about making the top plate modification for wood panel users, as I'll be using wood.  

I'd be in for one of these as well.

[ChadTower]

I'd be in for one but it would have to be usable on wood.

[dag2000]

I'd be in.  I'd be happy to pre order with a deposit or prepay, even.  I'd be happy to spend extra for one piece and would love to see a wood panel mounting plate. I imagine it would be something like a trackball plate, except with a square opening, no?

[NoOne=NBA=]

I imagine it would be something like a trackball plate, except with a square opening, no?

That was my vision of it.

[Kremmit]

Any news, Oscar?

You teased us about these back in Dec of '03

You're not getting away with leaving the thread hanging this time.

[Gamecab]

Oscar,

I would purchase one, just let me know when you are ready to sell them.  I left a nice open space for this upon finishing my own personal control panel.

Charlie

[spidermonkey]

Yep, I have a nice open lot on my new cp thats waiting for one of these too.

[Tiger-Heli]

Hi OSCAR -

I'm out on these.  Would have a hard time justifying that kind of money on a DOT spinner much less a control that would work with a standard spinner.

I think $100 is about the right price point.  I doubt $90-$110 is going to change anyone's mind.  If it were $25-$75 more people would "experiment", and if it were $150-$200, people might think twice about it.  

Couple of thoughts - I still didn't get the "ears" thing, but I say do whatever is easier for you.

I like NoOne = NBA's comments about using a trackball mounting method.

Also, I think you could make it simpler by modifying it to drop the lower rollers and just have a central axle shaft (maybe with gears) that drive the encoder wheel.

But that's not your style . . .

[planetjay]

I have this spinner which I can loan you if you want to make them...
Notice it "goes both ways".  

[Tiger-Heli]

I have this spinner which I can loan you if you want to make them...
Notice it "goes both ways".  

OT www.jibjab.com "I go both ways in DC", LOL

[OSCAR]

Wow, been MIA for quite a while, I guess....

Real Life got in the way for a little bit, but I am in the process of getting quotes right now.  I decided to have it priced out with the top plate machined out of black ABS or PVC in one piece, rather than the separate ears idea.  I am supposed to hear back on these next week, and when I do, I will post back with what I find out.

I believe this standard design will be compatible with a wood control panel.  I played around with that in my 3D model and it seemed to look okay.  I don't really want to make any changes to how it mounts since there is going to be a run of MH control panels and CPO's in the near future, and this control is designed to work with the repro MH cp.




BTW, thanks PJ for enormous pic.  

That is the same spinner that's in my Mad Planets cabinet.  It works very well, but I had to put one of my own Tempest knobs on it.  The original Tempest knob (which was also used on Mad Planets) had a significant wobble and it drove me nuts...

[dag2000]

any more news on this?

[OSCAR]

I talked to the shop regarding the roller this morning, actually.  The guy that is pulling the pricing together for me got the queue mixed up a little.  I sent one of my fabricators three new products to price out for me on the same day, and he was supposed to get me the pricing back on the roller first.  However, he somehow reversed the order of the products and ended up doing the roller last.

Long story short... I'm just waiting on the machined top plate pricing right now, so hopefully I will have something to report shortly.  Sorry for the longer-than-expected wait.  

[dag2000]

THREE new products??

and just in time for the holidays!

[paigeoliver]

If the other two happen to include any of the following

720 controllers
Taito 8 position spinner
Xybots joy

then you'll probably make some people very happy.

[Lilwolf]

I gave my 720 controller to Oscar for a few months to see if he wanted to try and repo it.

And he didn't seem to excited about it...  So I wouldn't get my hopes up... But then again, I would guess it would do better seller then a Major Havoc roller myself... But the costs would probably be an a few hundred.

[Hoagie_one]

If the other two happen to include any of the following

720 controllers
Taito 8 position spinner
Xybots joy

then you'll probably make some people very happy.

or an ikari type rotary stick

[OSCAR]

Or how about a control that will tranform into all 4??  


When I send something out for pricing, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm going to release them for fab.  I only seriously consider probably 95% of the products I draw up and get priced; I've got a whole book filled with control details that I've made fab drawings for and have priced out.

In this case, however, I actually do have another product that I am going to release prior the MH roller, but I'm not giving out any details about that until it is available through my shopping cart.  It's not because its some uber-secret ultimate control, but rather so I don't get flooded with questions and "When's it going to be ready?" emails when I don't even have it in my hand yet.  And that is because I usually tinker with the prototype for a bit and make minor revisions prior to the production run, so the availability time table is up in the air until I feel the product is ready.

[dag2000]

When is it going to be ready?