Mainstream media "Rather" biased (sorry, can't help myself on this one)

[mr.Curmudgeon]

BTW, did I mention that your president is a liar?  ( )

Sorry, can't help myself on this one. Finally someone in the news media actually does their job, objectively. Maybe the positive side to all this B.S. with the Swift vets and CBS Memos is  that is may force the press to go back to reporting instead of opining.

[fredster]

MrC.

Mr. Howell said

I'm voting for Kerry for one simple reason...

So he's voting for Kerry.  

Get the proof on your stories.  

I don't care about Kerry or Bush's records.  I think the poll on Nov 2 is an important one too.  

BTW, in my experience, when a candidate or group says don't worry about the polls, they are loosing.  

Is there any way you can think that Bush could win the debates?  

[fogman]

You guys know in your gut that Bush is a coward and that he stepped in front of the line, sending some other poor sap to Vietnam in his place. I'm glad I don't have to defend that loser. Keep telling yourselves he's a stand-up guy, certainly sounds good, just doesn't hold water.

He's a coward?  Did you vote for Bill Clinton against Bob Dole?  Bill Clinton left the country and protested the war on foreign soil.  So he was a coward?  Bob Dole lost his arm in WWII.  I guess he should have won based on that?  I forgot, we're not allowed to mention the hypocrisy with a party that so quickly forgets everything they said just 8 years ago.

And, how terrible that he had a father with importance!  The Fortunate Son, what a horrible monicker to put on someone.  BBBWWWWAHHHHHH (or whatever)  John Kerry is a Fortunate Husband.  He should be condemned because he married a rich woman!

I don't give a rats ass what happened 30 years ago.  I wasn't there (well, I was but the only reason I was against the war was it kept me from watching Sesame Street).  When I can go to the 13 1/2 floor to find the access way to these people's mind, I'll tell you what drove them to their decision.  I don't care that Bill Clinton didn't go, I don't care that Kerry did, I don't care that George Bush went into the National Guard, I don't care that Ted Kennedy killed Mary Jo Kopechne at Chapaquidick.  I don't care that Robert Byrd was a member of the KKK.  I don't care that Bill Clinton didn't inhale.  I don't care that John F. Kennedy had an affair with Marilyn Monroe.  I don't care what France, Germany, Denmark, Iran, Syria, China, North Korea, or anyone else thinks of us...

I care that Iraq needs to be democratic and free.
I care that Social Security needs to be changed somehow in order to work.
I care that drug companies need to be incentivized to produce new drugs, while at the same time drugs need to be affordable to those that need them.
I care that people can get the necessary medical treatment they need.
I care that businesses can prosper and provide jobs for more people.
I care that people can find jobs that provide them with security.
I care that the people in the Sudan are being slaughtered.
I care that the U.N. has done nothing to correct any atrocities in the world, not the Sudan, not Bosnia, not China...

I think everyone cares about the same things as above.  If you think John Kerry will do a better job at addressing the items above, vote for him.  If you think G.W. will, vote for him.

P.S. Well, actually I do care about a bunch of the things above that happened 30 years ago...I just don't think they are campaign issues at this point.

[Dartful Dodger]

Oh btw, prove that I haven't served. The burden lies on you. /sarcasm

I have documents from 1973 signed by your former squadron commander.

I can print them out of Word right now and fax then to you, if you don't believe me.
</sarcasm>

[mr.Curmudgeon]

DD,

Hehe...honestly, that's a good one! You don't happen to work at Kinko's do you?

(Me=lefty dissapointed in CBS)

[Dartful Dodger]

Is there any way you can think that Bush could win the debates?  

At the end of the debate ask Kerry the first question again.

[SirPeale]

Wow, this is an interesting thread.  I'm still not sure who I'm voting for.  It's not W, I know that much, and I'm pretty sure it's not Kerry.

But that could change.

[DrewKaree]

How about Perot Nader?  

[Dartful Dodger]

How about Perot Nader?  

I liked the Corvair, and Nader blew the whistle on it "Unsafe at any Speed."  Because it was a Chevy, and (back then) Chevy meant performance, so he was critical of it's rear engine not handling high speeds.  The German Beatle had the same flaws, but he didn't Attack it, and look how popular the Beatle became, the Corvair lasted only a couple of years.  

Yeah, a guy that would hurt an American company to sell a few books is a good choice for an American president.

[DrewKaree]

     *makes it so that even a "Master of the Obvious" could get the joke now*

How about Bednarik


Better?  

I better add a couple more of these so I'm understood

 
 
 
 

[fogman]

I must have missed Mr. C's response to my question on whether Bill Clinton was qualified to be commander in chief because he was a coward compared to the war hero Bob Dole.  hmmmmmmm.  Oh well, I'll keep waiting...

In the meanwhile:

BTW, did I mention that your president is a liar?  

Since you probably consider Gore the true president, then yes, you are right...he is a liar.  So was his boss.  And if G.W. lied because he had too high an alcohol content, come on, everyone would lie about drinking...or spousal infidelity...or creating the Internet...or aspirin/chemical warfare factories in the Sudan, right?  Give the guy a break.  

[mr.Curmudgeon]

I must have missed Mr. C's response to my question on whether Bill Clinton was qualified to be commander in chief because he was a coward compared to the war hero Bob Dole.  

Bill Clinton never used surrogates to defile another man's service. Up until Bush did, his TANG service wasn't an issue for me. Clinton never claimed to be a 'War President', and he never lied to bring our country to war. Bush has brought his cowardice front and center by claiming to be something he's not (think war hero landing on air craft carrier to pre-maturely claim, "Mission Accomplished"). He's purporting to be qualified in an area he truly IS NOT.

Clinton had numerous other qualities that made him a better choice than Dole. If Bill would have tightened a flight suit around his package and traipsed around daintily on the flight deck spouting off about misguide wars, then yeah, his deferments should have, at that point, become an issue. It's called hipocrasy and the right wears it like a cheap suit.

I wanted Gore to win in 2000, as I disliked Bush immensely. However, I was impressed, initially, with the administrations restraint directly after the attacks, I was certain they'd go about bombing everybody on 9-12. I wanted to believe Bush was coming into his own, finding some long lost leadership abilities in the months after the attack. I supported his initial efforts in Afghanistan, hell, if I was young enough, I would have signed up to go over there myself. I was willing to relinquish a few of my civil liberties in exchange for more security.

That being said, Bush has since let me down. Big time. He misled us on Iraq, he's failing the WoT, he's misused the powers given to him by the patriot act (no significant convictions) and he's destroying our economy. He's not the leader he claims to be and he needs to go. It's that simple.

Give the guy a break.

Not when it comes to destroying my country. He can take a break when he's back in Crawford for good. Bush has been gettings breaks his entire life and I'm not suprised that, as a supporter, you'd be willing to give him another. It's probably the only way you guys can stomach his ineptitude.

[DrewKaree]

as opposed to the break you give Kerry on...wait a minute, it's not a break, you give him a pass.  

Bush started the "surrogates to defile" process?!  You couldn't POSSIBLY have missed MoveOn.org's attempts, unless you wish to give Kerry a pass on this stuff unless you're so blinded with rage that Bush might win ANOTHER election  

You hypocritically show us a snippet from a press conference in which a White House spokesperson answers questions regarding Bush's form 180 (and then equate it with the way Kerry made his records "available").  McClellan stated he DIDN'T THINK HE SIGNED IT, but he authorized the public release.  The only way to do such a thing is to sign his form 180.  You speak as if McClellan stated flatly that he was 100% positive that Bush didn't sign it, and equate the personal choice of records released by Kerry to the signing of a document needed to make such things public.

After you do this, you hypocritically state that we should listen to what comes from the horse's mouth.  You are so filled with hate and anger you can't even keep your own arguments straight, nor on the subject.  

I see why you could like Kerry.  He debates the same way as you do.  "I disagree on this point.  If you have me over a barrel and I can't win, I will change my position to fit what is in vogue at this time".  You tout Kerry's ability to change his mind as some brave and noble thing...10+ (the + is because the election is still to come, he's got time to change his mind yet again) changes in opinion about something in which he had access to the same things Bush did, but chose not to look at - what you call courage, the rest of the sane population calls Flip-Flop on.  Maybe you should borrow danny_galaga's dictionary.  Your definition of courage doesn't seem to match up with any logical definition of the word.

You accuse me of being a political hack and of pushing my ideologies on others, while you yourself do the same thing.  You claim the U.S. will be a better place with Kerry in the White House, whereas I and many others see the White House being run by a person supported by the bitter spiteful can't-debate-so-you-resort-to-name-calling stereotype you continue to show yourself to be.  Maybe give shmokes a call...see how he can manage to debate without resorting to the name-calling and vitriol you can't seem to get out of your system.  You'd do well to take notes from him, as I believe no one here deems him to be the off-the-handle partisan on a witchhunt that you are showing yourself to ever more become.

Try to stick with one argument, debate it until there is a conclusion to disagree, and bring up another point. Or in the space I usually reserve to debate a point, continue to bring up thousands of points, then don't debate them when people refute your claims with fact and logic.  Oh wait, that's what youve been doing  

You're the perfect yin to TA Pilot's yan...talk about *gak*.

[fogman]

As far as using surrogates to defile another's service, do you really believe that Burkett never mentioned the documents that he had to Lockhart, even though they had a discussion?  The Swift Bots Vets are mad because of what Kerry said about them following the war.  I do not see why they need any other reason except that to go after Kerry.  I don't know if what they say is true or not, but I don't see why you are taking for granted that they are "surrogates" when they have a clear motive for keeping Kerry out of the Whitehouse.

Bush is a wartime president...there is a war and he is president.  Is he lying about a war going on?  Bill Clinton was also a wartime president...we went to war in Bosnia.  Maybe I missed your point.  Landing on the aircarft carrier was such a minor issue with just about everybody.  What is the big problem with it?  He was a pilot.  We ousted Saddam Hussein.  It was a minor photo op.  Was he the first president to use a photo op?  I guess what he should have done was put a glower face on and say "Well guys, we got Saddam out, the daily murdering is over, but maybe we shouldn't have done this."  Everyone would have rallied around him at that point I'm sure.

Bush didn't lie about the war.  The information was available to the Senate Intelligence Committee and those who attended the meetings voted to authorize use of force.  Kerry even said that the US should go it alone, since we could not count on France or Russia.  The US policy under Bill Clinton was to depose Saddam Hussein.  And Bush did exercise restraint.  Saddam Hussein would not let the inspectors do their work, even after given "One Last Chance".  How many more "One Last Chances" was he supposed to get???

You dislike Bush immensely.  Your opinion will not change.  I do not dislike Kerry immensely.  I think he would not make a good president, so I am voting for Bush.  I am voting on the issues...I have gone to the Kerry website and the Bush website and think Bush lays out a clearer plan for the next few years.  The Kerry webiste is loaded with "We have a plan to strengthen xxx".  No plan, we are just supposed to imagine that Kerry and Edwards have a Plan.  Check the website and correct me if I am wrong.  I really want to know what the plans are, because if Kerry wins, he will be my President also, not just the President of those who voted for him.  And I will support and respect him as the President of the United States is the worst job in the world and the holder deserves all the respect the office entails.  (And I am not saying that you can't be critical of GW just because he is president...political descent is one of the things that makes the US great.)

I believe the economy is recovering from the "irrational exhuberance" of the 90s.  I agree with the No Child Left Behind and have seen many examples of it working.  I know of a family of doctors who are in Boswana under Bush's Aids package for two years treating Aids patients.  I acknowledge the rate of home ownership increase across the board.

The discussion should revolve around the issues.  The CBS issue was a serious crime which has more of a chance of reflecting badly on Kerry than the Swfit Boats on Bush, simply because someone used fake documents to try to influence an election.  I should be addressed by a prosecutor, not an independent media reviewer under a Purchase order from CBS.

I was sarcastically saying give the guy a break.  I was comparing the "National Guard Flap" with Clinton lying about infidelity.  Do you really care if Bush was flying in the National Guard or fighting in the jungles of Vietnam.  Really...do you care?  If I decided to run for Mayor of my town, will someone come out and say that I missed a few classes in college because I was hung-over and am unqualifed compared to someone who attended every class?  Concentrate on the issue, not what's spoon fed by the media.

[fredster]

Here's the link that kinda sums up this thread: