Project Taito Pheonix (image warning)

[DYNAGOD]

Well after a weekend of gaming ive come to several conclusions and discovered several issues..

firstly, the monitor is too damn big , or more importantly, the control panel is too damn CLOSE to the monitor..
the way this cab is designed you are sitting so close to the monitor all you can see are scan lines and phosphenes..
im going to have to concoct a spacer of sorts to play this thing without going blind and to actually be far enough away for the triads to blend back into cohesive colors.

secondly.. windows looks like a can of smashed as#holes.
the refresh rate is so low its enough to put someone into a seizure..its headache inducing..and i can only stand to look at it for a few minuted before i have to break out the the excedrin..
in addition screen roatation is not supported and crashes me to a  -1 by -1 pixel resoltion with a blank color depth.
theres some kind of conflict between the windows display properties window and the ATI display properties window.
im simply of the opinion that arcadevga is simply not up to the task of displaying windows competantly or in a manner that is comfortable or appealing to the human eye..
also is windows incessant need to install a second imaginary diaplay adapter each and every time windows is started.
ive disabled the phantom device in the device manager and gotten it to stop the install dialog, but what gives with that?

next the need to adjust the monitor for each and every game I load makes for a big problem..to access the monitor controls i have to open the hood and with the glass installed it weighs about 30-40 lbs. openeing that thing each and every time i choose a different game is just not acceptable...on top of that leaving a game thats been on for an hour or more back to windows results in a complete loss of adjustment,meaning i have to readjust the monitor completely to get the garbled mess back to something useable.
next,even when adjusted fairly well, theres a slight horizontal shake that i just cant seem to fine tune out..the controls for the monitor simply arent fine enough to get rid of it...its almost stroboscopic..
next are the scanlines that run from top to bottom(when playing vertical games they are up and down)..is this normal?? i dont notice it in games like galaga and pac man, but newerl games look bad,the scanlines running up and down are thick and pronounced..maybe again,the monitor is simply just too large..

next, random coin insertions..
this is causing many games to tilt with a "coin error"
ive disconnected the microswitch on the coindoor but it still persisits so the short must be somewhere deeper in the jamma harness. its quite annoying and prevents me from leaving the game in attract mode which invites burn in..
most games simply error out and crash to a "coin error " screen after only a few minutes..

despite all of the negative feedback here, the classic games looked fantastic!! but the sheer number of glaring issues make me wonder if this is a viable project. the image quality of windows and many of the games i had hoped to play on this cab is simply too poor to be considered acceptable. i mean it looks BAD....and windows is nothing less than a painfull stroboscopic heacache inducing mess..
i think PCB's are for me..and that maybe ill come back to mame and arcadevga when the technology catches up a bit..


ABIT IC7-Max3
Intel

[AmericanDemon]

:: drools ::  If the distance to the monitor is an issue...  I could surely take it off you hands.

[RayB]

Ummm, are you using MAME 32 or something? Why would you keep popping back to Windows? Isn't ArcadeVGA designed to directly drive an arcade monitor, and therefore I would assume you should be using DOS MAME... Did you turn on the setting that tells MAME it is in an Arcade cab?

[CthulhuLuke]

have you tried running PowerStrip on this thing?
http://entechtaiwan.net/util/ps.shtm
it has an option for arcade monitors, and you can tell it what Hz to try.  Your monitor might support 30hz and you're running it in 15hz, i believe the arcadevga has a jumper for that.  You're a smart dude so you've probably tried all this before, but its just a thought, usually stroboscopic video is due to a bad refresh rate (I think)

[DYNAGOD]

"Ummm, are you using MAME 32 or something? Why would you keep popping back to Windows?"

no im running regular old mame for windows with emuloader. i was under the impression that an arcadeVGA could handle windows.

" Isn't ArcadeVGA designed to directly drive an arcade monitor, and therefore I would assume you should be using DOS MAME..."
no im running regular mame for windows on an xp home sp2 machine.  i shold be using dos?

"Did you turn on the setting that tells MAME it is in an Arcade cab"
I am using no special command line additions for mame to specify that it is running on an arcade cab.
should i be? and what is that command?

"have you tried running PowerStrip on this thing?"
at your recomendation i did,.when i was inbetween ArcVGA's i gave it a shot. theres even a thread in the video monitor section where i went over it. i found the instructions from several cab owners personal sites but i could not ,no matter how i tried get a viable signal to drive my monitor.
my monitor is a nanao dual res monitor. i beleive it supports 13 and 25khz signals. but to switch between them requires removing the monitor.


UPDATE:
mame087b_dos.zip     N/A     DOS version of MAME 0.87.

there is no dos version of 87 available from mame.net...

[DYNAGOD]

-scanlines / -sl yes/no/horizontal/vertical (default: yes)
Scanlines are small, evenly-spaced, horizontal/vertical blank lines that are typical of real arcade monitors. If you don't
prefer this "authentic" look, turn scanlines off. By default
the scanlines will match the orientation of the game, if you
don't like this you can force either horizontal or vertical
scanlines.
========================================

-monitor X (default: standard)

   Selects the monitor type:

   standard: standard PC monitor
   ntsc:     NTSC monitor
   pal:      PAL monitor
   arcade:   arcade monitor
==========================================


becuase im running an arcade monitor i should be running with

scanlines set to
-scanlines no

monitor set to
-monitor arcade

do i place a comma after each?
ie
-scanlines no,-monitor arcade

[SirPeale]

The '-monitor arcade' option won't work with your setup, because you're using Windows.

However, since you're using the ArcadeVGA it should be outputting @ 15KHz anyway, so no additional settings should be necessary.

[JoeB]

OK.. let me try and help you a bit here.. hope the following makes sense.

The great thing about the ArcadeVGA is that in nativly (i.e. in hardware) supports most of the common arcade PCB resolutions.  This means, you don't have to mess around with scan lines, resolutions and all the other mame settings.

just running mame.exe should be good enough!

That said.. you need to instruct mame what resolution the game should run at.  Do not assume the default is the correct one.  There are lots of tools out there to force MAME into the correct resolution.

Try running the ArcadeVGA MAME resolution tool that's found here:  http://mamewah.mameworld.net/downloads.html

This tool will force the games to play in their ArcadeVGA support resolutions and as close to the real thing as possible.

I think the problem you're running into is that MAME runs at the desktop resolution (640x480) and that will always look like crap.

Try playing some of the Neo Geo games.  They should run at x 240 resolution.  They should look perfectly clean and sharp! (with no refresh problems or sync problems).

Oh.. and you should see the pixels that make up the game.  That's what VGA is all about.. that's the way it was in the arcade.  It's the ultimate thing that people strive for.

The thing about MAME is that it tries to be super accurate in terms of reproduction (things like resolution and refresh rate).  These things work greeat on something like a PC monitor (that can cope with different refresh rates) but fails terrible on things like an Arcade monitor (since refresh rate is something you tune with the vertical hold and other pots on the monitor!)

This is where things like NoNAME MAME come into play.  Check out:

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=3;action=display;threadid=10428

It forces mame in 60hz (native arcade monitor refresh rate).

Try it out.. you'll find it better than the standard MAME.

As far as the front end.. I strongly recommend MAMEWAH.  MAMEWAH will work at arcade resolution, rather than windows resolution, so it'll look better.  Also, it's very customizable.  So you can make it look really nice to the point that people will never know there's a PC in there.

There's a lot of tweaking that needs to be done to get it all to work together correctly.. and lots of reading to do.  Hope this gets you started on the right direction.

[DYNAGOD]

as you stated ,neo geo games look like gold, but others, like most of the vertical shmups look like theyve been thru the ringer.
ive started a download flurry and have compiled all the files you recomened and im going to start to try and get it running.,
UPDATE:
noname is a little too old for me.
besed on .074u or somewheres around there..thats sadly too far back for me. dragon blaze didnt have sound back then and a crapload of the 19 series wasnt included yet..
 could it be recompiled with a more recent version?

[whammoed]

Windows will never look good on a cga monitor.  There is no technology to make this better, it is just limited by the monitor, but you want that monitor to display the arcade games correctly.  It will look better on a multisync monitor but not great.   It is only meant to be "useable" by using the arcadeVGA.  BUT, all the 15Khz games should look perfect.  Can you give me an example of a game that you are having trouble looking good?  I would like to test it out on my 15Khz monitor and see what I get.

[DYNAGOD]

as an example..
dodonpachi
its pretty indiciative of the problems im having.
there is what i would desribe as banding. it looks like extremely heavy scanlines running from  top to bottom across the screen.

heres my setting in emuloader.

[whammoed]

Well I can't try it out with your setup but I tried it with advmame 0.87 under linux using a radeon 7000 on a Wells Gardner d9200.  Here is a pic without any tweaking whatsoever.  I just started the game in the correct orientation.  I've never seen it in the arcade but it looked perfect to me.  I think you would get what you wanted out of your setup if you switched out the monitor with either the d9200 or the Kortek multisync.  All the true arcade resolutions plus you can run windows either 640x480 or 800x600 non-interlaced.

hope this helps  

[Gunstar Hero]

I'd try going with a horizontal monitor orientation... the vertical shmups will still look quite BIG, but not so big you have to scan the screen to see everything going on, and Windows will probably look better in that enviornment too.

Seriously, a full on 2 player DoDonPachi game, THAT big and THAT close is gonna cause some headaches, if not flat out seizures!!

[JoeB]

UPDATE:
noname is a little too old for me.
besed on .074u or somewheres around there..thats sadly too far back for me. dragon blaze didnt have sound back then and a crapload of the 19 series wasnt included yet..
 could it be recompiled with a more recent version?

That's not true..

I'm using noname mame 0.83.13 (June 13/2004)

As far as I know, the games that are support after this mame version are mostly proof of concept than anything else (i.e. 3D games that emulate 3DFX style hardware that require 5ghz machines to be playable!)

I'm happy with this version.  No error message, and all the disabled games are enabled.    

[DYNAGOD]

I think you would get what you wanted out of your setup if you switched out the monitor with either the d9200 or the Kortek multisync.

agreed...plus if i plan to fix the rotation wheels im going to have to pull the monitor anyways..its just amoney issue..maybe when taxs come back i can replace the monitor and sell it on ebay to recoop some of the cost. i already know one individual whom bougth an egret without a monitor on ebay for 70$ !!! he was inquiring..

i didint have much luck with the res tool.
after applying resolutions for both horz and veri games i went back and loaded up some vertical games and they were displaying horizontally and quite small .which i can at least day they didnt do before,attempting to display a vertical game horizonatally before res tool resulted in a garbled screen..
so i had to go back in to all the vertical games ini files manually and add no rotate right,hardware stretch, manually set the refresh for 60, and locked all the sync's..

That's not true..

I'm using noname mame 0.83.13 (June 13/2004)

As far as I know, the games that are support after this mame version are mostly proof of concept than anything else (i.e. 3D games that emulate 3DFX style hardware that require 5ghz machines to be playable!)

I'm happy with this version.  No error message, and all the disabled games are enabled.

i must have hit upon a cached soundforge page. the top version was .074u or something like that..
and i have absolutely no interest whatsoever in the 3d games.  if i want to play a game like that ill buy the pcb or load up zinc or one of my consoles. MAME is for raster only for me anyways.

i think its criticial that i get some distance between the control panel and the monitor.

something like this..a good ft away.. i think im going to fabricate a space of sorts, i will have to do some work to keep the coin door functional but i think its doable. this is clearly the most necessary thing that has to be done to improve image quality.







the first thing i notice on your dodonpachi image is that there is no lines running top to bottom across the screen.. yours clearly looks different than mine. fo example the letters in the work "conrinue" are solid, not a series of vertical lines with black spaces between them.

[DYNAGOD]

im having evil,evil thoughts as i sit here at work....
im here holding a electromechanical 18" stroke linear actuator with limit switch for a job we are doing...
My, wouldnt that make opening my 40lb hood a breeze
 
better yet, open by a car alarm switch on a keychain..
i want to make the monitor rotate via a reversible AC motor.
this just sees like th next natural step..
off to ebay to search for used actuators and step motors..

hacking one of these could prove usefull as well.
http://smarthomepro.com/2034.html
a 120v AC switch that can be actuated by IR signals from any source..


jeez saint wasnt kidding when he said "feature creep"

[DYNAGOD]

its DC,but hey
http://www.dclinearactuators.com/item74.htm

[DYNAGOD]

Bad news...

Dear Richard,
The AD-81P Coin Selector is designed as a coin specific unit. There are
no conversion kits available or parts identified to us to change these
units to a different coin/token. If you would like pricing for the US
.25 units, let me know how many you would like. Please give me your
address and I will send you more information on this product.
Best Regards,
Robert G Angell

Gaming Representative
Asahi Seiko USA Inc.
Phone 1-800-859-5353
Fax 1-702-260-6493

Check out our new web page at www.asahiseikousa.com

[mindofone]

This *might* help you out:

http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=949i17%24d18%241%40nnrp1.deja.com



tm

[Grasshopper]

Looks good but I'm a bit puzzled about the position of the footplate. Should it not be under the control panel instead of to the right of the cab?

[DonDrimeXm8]

Looks incredible, DYNAGOD; beautiful looking Egret.  Hope you can resolve all the problems with the resolutions and such...

I'm trying to do some similar work with an Aerocity.  If you don't mind my asking, how did you strip and paint it?  I want to strip mine down next weekend and paint it but really don't know where to start.  I'm thinking of using a sander to strip it and then painting with a roller?  

You had to deal with a lot of crap (and still are) but the cab looks absolutely amazing.

[DYNAGOD]

THankS
i just used a die grinder to remove the paint.
be aware if you hit an area too long youll heat it up too much and cause the sheetmetal to buckle.. i had a small problem with this where the control panel and body meet,so take your time.
the paint is tough as hell,if its the same stuff as the egret. it has some antigraffiti additive as well, and you will have to strip it COMPLETELY before priming or painting...i did not the first time and the primer ran like water  
stripping and painting my cab turned into much more of an undertaking than i could have imagined, unless your paint job is really fubar, id recomend leaving it..
and i dont recomend using a roller, you want to spray the paint on to get a nice smooth finish. either with a gun or as a last resort spray paint..

[RayB]

You spoiled us with your rate of progress before. I'd say you're due for an update now!

[DYNAGOD]

Well, got my parts back from the chroming house..not chromed thought ...they sat there for a month and they never got to them, so i took them back yesterday and mounted them up. just got tired of waiting around and having my progress held up.
the parts in question will rust a little being unprotected ,but i really dont care, ill have to refinish them before i get them chromed again anyways..
 ive got s ---auto-censored---load of ideas , but unfortuently im just at the end of my financial rope at the moment.
so while i wait for the next wave or indulgence, i figured id mount up the speaker pod and put the control panel back on and enjoy some game time..

My grave yard of dead arcade VGA cards for this project..

[whammoed]

take those parts to a powder coater instead of a chromer.  they have powder coat now that looks like chrome.  probably be cheaper and maybe even more durable.

[DYNAGOD]

also, thanks to the miracle of cell division, i have more nuts and bolts than when i started (gotta love having extra parts)

i have to say, the sanwa buttons and seimitsu sticks really reek of poor quality...the buttons are the sloppiest things ive even played with..i dont think these stock japanese parts have long for this cab..i wanted to stick with convention,but i had no idea these parts were so low rent, i was under the impression they were the best..completely unfounded with my observations..
i have a 360 optical w/chrome slik stik bat top , and about 50 assorted happ competition pushbuttons w/cherries. unless these controls really grow on me,and soon, theyre coming out..the sanwa pushbuttons especially, these things are soo sloppy. the return spring is extremely weak so theres no real tactile feedback. i just dont like the feel.

[CthulhuLuke]

also, thanks to the miracle of cell division, i have more nuts and bolts than when i started (gotta love having extra parts)

i have to say, the sanwa buttons and seimitsu sticks really reek of poor quality...the buttons are the sloppiest things ive even played with..i dont think these stock japanese parts have long for this cab..i wanted to stick with convention,but i had no idea these parts were so low rent, i was under the impression they were the best..completely unfounded with my observations..
i have a 360 optical w/chrome slik stik bat top , and about 50 assorted happ competition pushbuttons w/cherries. unless these controls really grow on me,and soon, theyre coming out..the sanwa pushbuttons especially, these things are soo sloppy. the return spring is extremely weak so theres no real tactile feedback. i just dont like the feel.

yeah the sanwa buttons is definitely a feel thing.  They are meant to feel extremely light so you can do very fast rapid presses, which is great for games like Dodonpachi, Street Fighter games, etc. because you're rapidly pressing the buttons the entire game, but if you're playing old school games they really don't feel authentic.  Competition pushbuttons feel fine except they have a smaller surface area unlike the sanwa, however they have built in springs and use cherry switches (the sanwas are just plastic over the japanese switch.)
  - that is a sad graveyard of ArcadeVGAs   this cabinet is definitely a love/hate project I take it.  Keep up the good work

[DYNAGOD]

Yea, im just not feeling them..
maybe theyll grow on me..
i think my biggest problem righ now os th elack of a dedicated pc. the machien i had slated for that job doesnt seem tto work so well since the high frequency welding mishap.. its always beeping from the bios for apparently no reason, and i dont dare put my only good ArcadeVGA card back in it..
so ive hd to keep disconnecting my main Family pc and hooking it up to the cab whenever i want to use it, which is no in the least very convenient.
and asfar as being a love hate project, its all love, its just not loving me back

[DYNAGOD]

i cannot beleive it.. but i have another dead arcadeVGA card on my hands....  
this officially puts the nail in the coffin for me for sometime to come..i had to sell my tornado spinner to buy the last card..
either ive got a bad AGP rail or the last several cards ive gotten were questionable.
to defend the rail, i have3 cards..a gefroce 4 ti4600,MX400 and the arcVGA in question.. i ve placed all three cards in the slot, but the only one that doesnt work anymore is the arcadeVGA..
I keep getting "the drivers do not match the display adapter you have installed on this machine" whenever i try to install the card..
thats 4 cards ,four friggin arcadeVGA cards...
ARRRGGGGGAAAHH kill me  

[Santoro]

I've got to believe that you have a bad power supply or motherboard if you are burning out ArcadeVGAs that fast. If there was that bad of a quality control problem at Ultimarc we'd have been hearing about it here much more frequently.

[DYNAGOD]

that woud be my first guess, but what doesnt fit though is the fact that i have 2 other cards ,both of which have been placed in the same machine both prior and previous to the death of these cards and they still work fine..( i have the ti4600 in now)
perhaps the PSU is crapping out, but whatever amount of variation or fluctuation there is apparently not enought to damage a more modern card if thats indeed the case..
i just put up a post at ultimarcs forums.
 ill send him all of the card back and see if they can be diagnosed somehow...

im at a loss as to how to proceed.
.

[Santoro]

Check the voltage specs of your mobo and the AVGA, maybe there is an incompatibility that is burning them out. Or maybe there is a BIOS setting for your AGP slot that is causing issues?

Have you tried your your AVGAs in other computers?  Maybe they just don't like your mobo but are still 'good?'

Also look for components on the AVGA that are 'burned out.'  (Brown, bubbled, on fire, etc.   )

Too wierd.

[DYNAGOD]

ive tried the cards in another PC.. same result..
the card is not recognized as an Ultimarc ArcadeVGA. only as a display adapter (VGA).. and its uninstallable and non startable..

[Santoro]

If Windows is telling you that it could easily be a driver problem.

What do you mean 'not startable?'  Do you see the BIOS screen?

[DYNAGOD]

if you go to hardware, and go to the device that is clearly the arcadeVGA , and you go to device status, you see "code 10, unable to start device"

ive used cat uninstall, and i am unable to install any new ATI drivers.. i can install any of my geforce card no problem., but the arcadeVGA cards are uninstallabe..
it doesnt recognize it as a ATI card.

[Santoro]

I don't think this is the ArcadeVGA's issue, but a driver issue.  I am 95% sure of that.  You probably have four good cards.

Being that the Arcadevga is a modified ATI card, I probably wouldn't mess with ATI drivers other than Andy's.

Here's what I would do.  If you can scrounge up a spare hard disk, do a fresh windows install with the ArcadeVGA.  then follow these instructions from the Ulitmarc Site:

Windows XP, 2000 and 98.

Start Windows. The Windows screen should be displayed at 640 X 480 interlaced, 16 colours.  

(This is where you described it very colorfully as being ugly)[/i]  

To use the ArcadeVGA built-in modes the ATI driver needs installing. Insert the Ultimarc CD. Run the driver Setup program in the correct folder (98 or XP or 2K). Reboot as prompted. Windows may ask if you want to replace newer files with old.  You MUST choose to replace all the files . After re-boot, install the ATI control panel by running Setup in the "Cpanel" folder on the CD.
Right-click on the desktop, select "properties" and set the colour depth to "32 bit colour".
Blue Screens in XP/2000 Windows XP may try to invoke the built-in Microsoft ATI driver and this will not work with the ArcadeVGA card, and causes a blue-screen error. If you see this, simply re-start and hold down "F8" and choose to start in Safe Mode, then install the ATI driver from the ArcadeVGA CD and re-boot.

I think your existing Windows install is hosed with registry entries that are screwing up the AVGA.

[DYNAGOD]

its not possible to do a windows install with the arcadeVGA..
you boot from the CD and after you hit F8 to agree to the licence agreement the screen cuts in half horizontally so you cannot see anything from the middle of the monitor down..
The arcadeVGA isnt capable of displaying the resolution used by the windows installer.
I would need a detailed step by step set of instruction so i can do it blind...

[DYNAGOD]

from what ive seen to do it blind..(or half blind)

Enter
F8
Esc
D
Enter
L

[Santoro]

Oh yea, I forgot that.  I used the Mobo onboard video to do my install.  As long as you don't install any 3rd party video drivers, you shoud be OK using your other video card to do the install, then do a swap.

[SuperGodX1]

After reading this, I'm wondering what I got myself into when picking up an Egret on ebay from Arcade Infinity.  

The seller had great feedback, even with other cabinets he shipped out...so I'm hoping mine arrives intact.

I definitely don't have as much patience as you have had with your project, DYNAGOD, but I hope it is successful.

BTW, what happened to the site that is hosting the pictures?  It would be nice to see all the images for this worklog.