Crystal Castles trackball

[telengard]

I'm starting a new thread hoping that someone who owns or plays this game a lot might have some suggestions.  I played it a lot on Sunday and there is no analog setting I can get w/  MAME that is close to the original.  I'm not sure the best way to describe it but when I come to an intersection in mame it tends to go in the direction I'm *not* pushing the trackball.  This doesn't happen in the real thing.   I have a Happs 3" ball and have lubed it up to be sure it's functioning correctly.  Windows acceleration is off.  This post from a while ago on usenet mentions something similar:

Groups.Google.Com Link

I have a 2nd happs 3" and I'm going to hook that up tomorrow to see if it behaves the same.  I would bet that it will.

Any ideas?

[etumor]

Sadly, I can only report that I've seen the same behavior.

-Jeff "etumor"

[Jakobud]

On a related note, was the CC trackball mounted at an angle?

[etumor]

I was wondering about this myself.  Earlier this year I was at a party where I met a guy who owned an original Crystal Castles.  I asked him about whether or not the trackball was mounted at an angle.  He said he didn't really know, but he said he'd check for me.

A week later, I received the following email from him:

"Hey there!  I just took a look in my Crystal Castles, and actually ...the trackball is mounted in straight, just like on Centipede...how about that!"

So there you go!

-Jeff "etumor"

[telengard]

I was wondering about this myself.  Earlier this year I was at a party where I met a guy who owned an original Crystal Castles.  I asked him about whether or not the trackball was mounted at an angle.  He said he didn't really know, but he said he'd check for me.

A week later, I received the following email from him:

"Hey there!  I just took a look in my Crystal Castles, and actually ...the trackball is mounted in straight, just like on Centipede...how about that!"

So there you go!

-Jeff "etumor"

So that rules that out.  Last night I looked at the Mame source and the schematics for CC.  Hopefully something will stand out.  I was sorta hoping the trackball was oriented differently since this might be easier to implement if necessary.

[telengard]

Sadly, I can only report that I've seen the same behavior.

-Jeff "etumor"

I've been experimenting a lot with this in addition to looking at the mame source (it's quite interesting).  When I have the sensitivity low, like around 30 the going the wrong direction thing doesn't seem to happen.  However, the bear moves about half the distance it should for a given amount of trackball.  The digital speed sounds like it wouldn't help since it only applies to digital devices.  There used to be a way to increase this, not sure what it is called now or if it even still exists.

[XtraSmiley]

I own a CC stand up, so if you guys need me to look at anything, just let me know.  

[telengard]

I own a CC stand up, so if you guys need me to look at anything, just let me know.  

Cool.  I'd be curious to know if moving the trackball straight to the left or right has any up or down movement in game.  Not sure if that makes sense but it's something that is easily visible in MAME using the keyboard for input.  When using the trackball it happens but whether it does or not seems to be dependent on the sensitivity settings.

thanks for offering to help!  CC is one of my fav games and I'd love to be able to play it like it plays on the real deal.

[XtraSmiley]

The direction you move the ball is exactly how Bentley moves in the game, i.e. if you move horizontal he moves horizontal, no up or down at all.  Something else that is weird is the TB for CC is mounted different than say Marble Madness.  It is mounted at an angle, which is actually straight.  Um, I guess that is confusing.  I should say that, the two rollers are vertical and horizontal and the horizontal one is parallel to the ground.  In my MM, the TBs are at 45 degree angles with the floor.  Is this as clear as mud?

[XtraSmiley]

By the way,   I think CC has one of the best cabinets ever made (art wise) and I think you should use it to MAME out of.  CC is also one of the most under rated games ever made and you can get them for about $200 fully working (I got my almost mint one for $300).  They are so plentiful and can easily be MAME'd out.  Let me know if I can help in any other way.  Here is my website if you'd like to see pics of mine.  www.mooshack.com just check out the photo section

[telengard]

The direction you move the ball is exactly how Bentley moves in the game, i.e. if you move horizontal he moves horizontal, no up or down at all.  Something else that is weird is the TB for CC is mounted different than say Marble Madness.  It is mounted at an angle, which is actually straight.  Um, I guess that is confusing.  I should say that, the two rollers are vertical and horizontal and the horizontal one is parallel to the ground.  In my MM, the TBs are at 45 degree angles with the floor.  Is this as clear as mud?

Hehe, no I'm confused (would pics help?) but this may explain why when you move to the right, you start to go up.  What makes it hard is that every ramp etc is diagonal so it's hard to say if it should go up when you are moving to the right.  Maybe a more specific test is in order.  How about this, on the first screen move to the upper left corner (this might be hard to do with those crystal balls there) and move the trackball down.  Does BB take a right (well right to the player) when you go by.  I guess the key here is to not do a diagonal down move in the same orientation as the ramp.  Does this make sense?

~telengard

[telengard]

By the way,   I think CC has one of the best cabinets ever made (art wise) and I think you should use it to MAME out of.  CC is also one of the most under rated games ever made and you can get them for about $200 fully working (I got my almost mint one for $300).  They are so plentiful and can easily be MAME'd out.  Let me know if I can help in any other way.  Here is my website if you'd like to see pics of mine.  www.mooshack.com just check out the photo section

Thanks for the info.  I think the CC cabinet is awesome also, lots of art, the lit up trackball, etc.  I also agree it is very underrated for a game.  I already have a mame cab but I am very keen to start collecting the real thing as I am getting sorta frustrated with small little things like this.   The games are sooo close but even still I seem to notice the differences and I've gone a long way to try and duplicate the original controls etc.  I also just really like the artwork etc on the cabinets.  I just need a huge house to keep them in.    

~telengard

[MoonDog]

"Hey there!  I just took a look in my Crystal Castles, and actually ...the trackball is mounted in straight, just like on Centipede...how about that!"

From XtraSmiley's pics it does appear that the trackball is mounted at a 45 degree angle.  Notice the location of the mounting bolts.

[goofy]

If you could shoot pictures of the differences, that would probably help.

[XtraSmiley]

OK, the direction you roll the ball is where Bentley moves.  If you go up with it, he goes up, down, he goes down.  Left, he goes left, right etc...  Now, on the screen he goes in these directions in relation to the real world but since the game board is tilted to an angle, he looks like he is moving in angles.  Just keep this in mind, the TB is Bentley.  If you move it a direction and he doesn't move exactly like you moved the TB it's not working right.  I don't have my digital camera anymore so I can't take pics for you, but I hope this clears it up.

[XtraSmiley]

"Hey there!  I just took a look in my Crystal Castles, and actually ...the trackball is mounted in straight, just like on Centipede...how about that!"

From XtraSmiley's pics it does appear that the trackball is mounted at a 45 degree angle.  Notice the location of the mounting bolts.

Correct, as I said, it is at an angle compared to other games with TB, but when you look at it, it is actually mounted where the rollers are parallel with the ground and a wall.  Confused yet?

[XtraSmiley]

Go here and look at the screen shots:

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=C&game_id=7456

Now, in the first screen shot, you cannot move the roller ball LEFT and have Bentley go left, you have to roll it at around 10 o'clock.  Same with the second shot.  In the third shot, to make Bentley go to the top of the board, you'd have to roll the ball toward 1 o'clock, NOT 12 o'clock.  Does this help?

PS  Not to confuse you, but the game is actually made to let you slide him around even if you roll up instead of 1 o'clock, i.e. the sides don't stick and slow you down, but good players don't hit the sides at all.

[telengard]

Go here and look at the screen shots:

http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?letter=C&game_id=7456

Now, in the first screen shot, you cannot move the roller ball LEFT and have Bentley go left, you have to roll it at around 10 o'clock.  Same with the second shot.  In the third shot, to make Bentley go to the top of the board, you'd have to roll the ball toward 1 o'clock, NOT 12 o'clock.  Does this help?

PS  Not to confuse you, but the game is actually made to let you slide him around even if you roll up instead of 1 o'clock, i.e. the sides don't stick and slow you down, but good players don't hit the sides at all.

Hmm, this is sorta what I see, but it seems to very easily favor the direction I'm not heading.  This is less apparent when the sensitivity is very low, but at that speed Bentley Bear moves way too slow.

I wouldn't have ever noticed this if I hadn't played it for over an hour at Funspot on Sunday.  Maybe if you tried it out on Mame w/ a trackball you might also notice the difference.  Have you tried CC on Mame w/ a trackball by any chance?

[XtraSmiley]

Unless you send me a TB I won't be able to try it out in MAME!  Email me if you'd like to send me one though!

As to the guy who wants the measurements, sure just email me what you need.

[telengard]

Unless you send me a TB I won't be able to try it out in MAME!  Email me if you'd like to send me one though!

As to the guy who wants the measurements, sure just email me what you need.

Hehe, I need to think before I type.      

If I can come up with any other testing I guess I'll ask but I'm all outta ideas for now.   All I know is that it doesn't seem right.

Thanks a lot for your help though, and I checked out your collection.  It's very cool.  

[u_rebelscum]

From XtraSmiley's pics it does appear that the trackball is mounted at a 45 degree angle.  Notice the location of the mounting bolts.

Just to clear something, Crystal Castles TB is mounted the normal way.  Pretty much ALL control panels are set up like this, including Golden Tee & Centiped to name a couple.

Marble Madness, OTOH, is mounted 45 degrees off of normal.  It's the only one that's like this AFAIK.  
-edit- Hold on, looks like Shuuz also is 45 degrees, from looking at the manual and mame, even though the KLOV pic shows the normal mount (& klov not being that good a source).

[Martoon]

The fact that, when you run CC in MAME, it only has these problems at higher sensitivities seems to suggest some kind of backspin or granularity problem.  I wonder if maybe CC has a very high resolution trackball (high toothcount, and/or small rollers) that it reads at a high frequency, so the MAME emulation has to compensate for your lower res trackball by multiplying by a high sensitivity value.  What this would mean is that if you move your trackball one mickey (a mickey is the smallest unit moved by a mouse, kind of like a mouse pixel), MAME might tell the game that the simulated trackball moved 5 mickeys.  Maybe the game doesn't handle larger granularity jumps like this very well.

I'm just making wild guesses here, but the fact that the problem only manifests itself when you have the sensitivity set higher definitely seems to indicate that the problem somehow involves the way MAME makes use of the sensitivity setting.  Just basic troubleshooting factor determination.

[telengard]

The fact that, when you run CC in MAME, it only has these problems at higher sensitivities seems to suggest some kind of backspin or granularity problem.  I wonder if maybe CC has a very high resolution trackball (high toothcount, and/or small rollers) that it reads at a high frequency, so the MAME emulation has to compensate for your lower res trackball by multiplying by a high sensitivity value.  What this would mean is that if you move your trackball one mickey (a mickey is the smallest unit moved by a mouse, kind of like a mouse pixel), MAME might tell the game that the simulated trackball moved 5 mickeys.  Maybe the game doesn't handle larger granularity jumps like this very well.

I'm just making wild guesses here, but the fact that the problem only manifests itself when you have the sensitivity set higher definitely seems to indicate that the problem somehow involves the way MAME makes use of the sensitivity setting.  Just basic troubleshooting factor determination.

Posting this here for reference in case anyone else every has the same issue.

After trying out numerous things I think I have figured out what's going on.  My Happs trackballs are relatively new.  Everything I've read about the bearings is that they need to be broken in.  Some of the behaviors of non broken in or stiff bearings are what I'm seeing.  Most specifically when moving the trackball down for instance at the end of it's motion it goes right or left.  I observed this in windows which makes it a lot more clear what's going on.  Now it makes sense why Bentley Bear is going in directions I don't want him to.    

Now, I just need to play every night for the next few weeks to break it in I guess.    

Thanks for everyone's input.

[XtraSmiley]

That sounds good!  You may just pop the bearings out and run a drill for about 5 min at high speed.  That will also break them in.

[u_rebelscum]

The fact that, when you run CC in MAME, it only has these problems at higher sensitivities seems to suggest some kind of backspin or granularity problem.  I wonder if maybe CC has a very high resolution trackball (high toothcount, and/or small rollers)... [snip].

For the record, CC used their (atari's) standard "Midi-Trak