CP Layout opinions

[mccoy178]

I am posting a few pics of my cab in progress.  I am looking for a CP for dummies approach to what I should do with the six buttons in the upper right.  The button on the left is for a four way stick.  Do I need to add a couple of buttons for the trackball, or can that be incorporated into the six buttons?  I did research this topic, that is how I decided on six buttons.  What I didn't figure out, is who, what, when, where, why, and how these buttons would interact.  Thanks again for all the help, and I am looking forward to paigeoliver's derogatory comments then helpful insight.  I'm the plexiglass idiot.

P.S.  Since this is the OSU cabinet, I felt that I would break traditional lines and incorporate a Woody Hayes bobblehead into the CP.  The light created a glare.  To resolve this, I created a little barrier.  I included the pics just for the heck of it.

[mccoy178]

Here are the other pics

[mccoy178]

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[mccoy178]

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[mccoy178]

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[Jakobud]

Hmmm... interesting approach... usually people have planned out what each button is suppose to do on the control panel before they drill the holes....  

[Xiaou2]

 I do not think that you are truely thinking about the design properly...

 How are you supposed to play with the 4way up there... when your arm is going to end up resting on top of the buttons?!  

  That is why I posted the design mod pic in the other post.  I doubt youd be able hold your whole arm up for that long - and at such a long distance from your body.  

  As for the bobblehead... I do not know who that is... and seems a bit silly to pop it in there when a spinner would be much better - as originally intended.

[DougHillman]

People, people.  It'd make alot more sense to design your panel in Illustrator or something and post a picture of your proposed layout for comments before you actually cut the wood.  What's the point of asking now?  A little late, isn't it?  

But, since you asked ....

Did you design this CP sepcifically to fit the overlay you posted in the other thread?

Why would you have drilled holes not knowing what you were going to use them for?

Did you not mock this up with cardboard or foamboard or something first, as is suggested here in just about EVERY CP thread?  This seems like a very ergonomically poor layout.  First, it's WAY deep.  Second, you're gonna be standing with your jewels/stomach jammed right into a corner (See the attached pic - WHY WHY WHY do half of the CP's posted here have this "feature"?)  

I do disagree with Xiaou2 though.  People seem to think that you play with your (a general "you" and "your") arms laying flat out on the CP where they'd be hitting all the buttons between your body and the control you're using.  That's simply not true.  Unless your CP is at a very specific height with regards to your arms when you're playing, you're NOT going to have your forearms on the CP.  I don't really think that the P1 buttons would interfere with the 4-way, other than the fact that it seems like you'd probably have to be laying on top of the CP just to reach the thing.

[neuromancer]

If I played a game on a control panel where I had to reach that far in front to get to the stick (not to mention the 4-way) I would have a massive back ache in no time.

You've got more dead space between the edge of your panel and the first controls than the entire depth of my panel!

Go to an arcade and try out a machine or two, and then step back a foot and try again. You'll see what we mean.

Bob

[mccoy178]

Wow!  Thanks for the button advice, feels like I'm in the queer eye for the straight arcade forum.  The CP is really not that far forward.  As far as the whole hitting the jewels on the front edge is concerned, either you have stubs for arms, or you should pick up jogging.  The reason for the fourway that far up is that I wanted to create a space between the buttons and the stick.  I also don't know how much I would be using that.  I have constructed the heigth of the Cp to contour to my heigth, and for others, stools should do them just fine.  You could sit upright and not have a problem reaching the controls.  I layed out the design in paper first, then traced everything before I did any cutting.  I spent plenty of time checking and double checking the distance of P1 and P2.  Now I appreciate bashing as much as the next guy, but I was wondering about those top six buttons.....

[neuromancer]

Good question! What *are* you going to use those extra six holes for?

If you're using mame, then you don't really need any so called "admin" buttons. Are you running some other emulator that's going to make use of them?

Before you go any further, I'd suggest putting buttons and sticks into the P1 holes, and sit/stand there playing with the controls for 1/2 hour or so, just to make really sure that you like where they are.

Bob

[pointdablame]

This isn't a "bash" persay, but what exactly did you read that told you that you "need" 6 extra buttons on a control panel?

I've never seen a post where someone asked what to fill these empty button holes with.  You really should have thought about what buttons you needed.  "Extra" buttons are usually admin buttons like Tab, ~, ESC, Pause, etc.  Depending on your encoder however, you could just use a shift key for all of these functions and avoided all of that clutter.  I think that space would be put to much better use with a spinner instead of 6 buttons that you now have to fill with some arbitrary uses.

Just my .02, but I don't really get how you could cut a CP out without knowing what the buttons were gonna do.

EDIT: looking again, where are you Player start buttons, and coin buttons?  I guess those would be good to add to that section, but now you are faced with having to reach across the CP everytime P1 wants to coin up or start.  That will be quite a nuisance for P2 in a 2p game, and also just annoying IMHO to have to do every time I wanna start a game.

[neuromancer]

EDIT: looking again, where are you Player start buttons, and coin buttons?  I guess those would be good to add to that

I figgured he was going to wire the beautiful over under coin door for credits...

MAME has shift key functinality built in, so it doesn't matter what you use for an encoder. You can use the player 1 start button as the shift key, since you rarely press player 1 start and anything else at the same time, except in Major Havoc...

Bob

[mccoy178]

I may have worded the post wrong.  I think I should of said, Hi, I'm building some random object.   I saw this site and noticed that it looked a lot like all of yours, except that it is very uncomfortable to play.  I was looking for some people to pick it apart since it is not trully what Mr. Caleco invisioned in 1982.  I know, I know, you may say, hey were just trying to help, and I know this.  I'll figure out what I want those buttons to do on my own, in the meantime, I just need a bunch more of you guys to join the bandwagon and pick it apart.  Don't let the English language fool you.  That first question was not for advice, it was an opportunity for a bunch of _______ to inform me how they would like it when they come over to play.  Oh, thats right, there not.... So even though I say it is fine by me, I want to know how I can make this better for all the short armed people in the world.  Please disregard my question asking for friendly advice.  Some have already figured out the true moral of this post.  That is, "Newbies beware!!! If you come near these hollowed grounds, be prepared.  It took us years to earn the right to type, and if you do not have the same mastery as us of the MAME system, prepare for your punishment.  It does not matter how long you have worked on your project, we have worked longer.  It does not matter how you designed your project, we designed ours better.  So beware!"

Wow, I feel better.  Guys, after the first time I replied to all the negatives, I really don't care after that for your opinion on layout.  I just asked about the damn six buttons at the top.  Go ahead and defend your statements.  Can they be defended, I guess.  But what was the relevance to the initial question.  Not much.  When it comes down to it, I just asked for opinions on the buttons, and for the most part, I did not get that.  I can't wait untill I get mine done so I can make stupid opinions on other peoples work.  Thanks and have a good weekend.

[MiKman]

I am posting a few pics of my cab in progress.  I am looking for a CP for dummies approach to what I should do with the six buttons in the upper right.  The button on the left is for a four way stick.  Do I need to add a couple of buttons for the trackball, or can that be incorporated into the six buttons?  I did research this topic, that is how I decided on six buttons.  What I didn't figure out, is who, what, when, where, why, and how these buttons would interact.  Thanks again for all the help, and I am looking forward to paigeoliver's derogatory comments then helpful insight.  I'm the plexiglass idiot.

P.S.  Since this is the OSU cabinet, I felt that I would break traditional lines and incorporate a Woody Hayes bobblehead into the CP.  The light created a glare.  To resolve this, I created a little barrier.  I included the pics just for the heck of it.

I think it was kind of goofy to drill some random holes without first figuring out what to put in them.  Kind of an odd pattern they are in, what was your logic behind the pattern of them?  I guess if you gotta fill them with something I would suggest the following:
Player 1 insert coin - (5 on the keyboard)
Player 1 Start - (1 on the keyboard)
Player 2 insert coin - (6 on the keyboard)
Player 2 Start - (2 on the keyboard)
Exit Game - (ESC on the keyboard)
Administration - (Tab on the keyboard)

There you go six buttons :-)  oh and for the trackball I would suggest using 3 of the buttons from the player one buttons.

Might be kinda cool with the bobble head in the contol panel. Can't wait to see that!  post pictures when you get him in there.

[MiKman]

  holy crap!  I dunno why people feel the need to rip other peoples work apart but whatever just take it in stride and don't worry about it.  Too many goofballs coming out of the woodworks when winter is fast approaching

[pointdablame]

I think you just have to realize that if you post pictures, you're going to get critcism on it (both constructive and not so much).  It's just human nature I suppose.

For the record, I agree when you talked about worrying about short armed people, etc.  As long as it's comfortable for you, then its fine.  I personally don't think the layout is bad at all either.  However, I hope that you can at least understand that some of us are confused about the buttons.

It's just not a common practice to cut out button holes without knowing what you're going to use them for.  As I said, I just think that space would be better suited for say a spinner, or another custom control.  You could have then put start/coin buttons over each players set-up, and admin buttons along the top if you so chose.  You also could have avoided those buttons altogether using a shift function.  I think most of us were just trying to show you that your method is unlike the standard method.  Is that bad? No.  Will you be able to find uses for the buttons? Sure.  Will you wind up loving the set-up? It's possible, and I hope you do.

It's just not the more... "logical" way to do things IMO.  If, however, I was one of the people who personally offended you, I apologize.

[neuromancer]

on layout.  I just asked about the damn six buttons at the top.  Go ahead and defend your statements.  Can they be defended, I guess.  But what was the relevance to the initial question.  

Well, if you read my post again, you might notice how I wrote "leaders" so you could explain a bit more about how you're going to operate your cab (emulators, coin door, etc.)

If it was my panel, I'd fill the damn holes, because I'd use said panel for MAME, and MAME just doesn't need 'em. Unless you want to make it idot proof, that is. If you're making a cab for people who can't read instruction cards and learn to press two buttons at once, then maybe you can use buttons for tab and esc and pause. In which case you might add an O and a K. But like I said, you don't need them, and panels with unnecessary buttons are an eyesore, imnsho.

Bob

[mccoy178]

Thanks for the suggestions fellas.  I didn't mean to wig out there, but I am looking for constructive thought.  I will prepare myself better in the future.  I really dislike it when I read any thread and it seems as though the next person is just interested in joining in on whatever the last guy said and they deviate from the original thought.  I appreciate you guys helping out.  I can handle the criticism, I welcome it, this just wasn't the post for that.  That for sure will be in the future.  Oh yeah, GO BUCKS!!!

[Mameotron]

Personally, I would put the 3 trackball buttons in the 3 bottom holes, and use the three top holes for start buttons or maybe coin buttons.

Or just put your admin buttons there (tab, P, ~, etc.).

I also think it's pretty cool on an OSU themed cab to include a bobble head doll of the GREATEST COACH OSU EVER HAD, arguably the greatest football coach ever of the big 10.  Talk about inspirational!!

Ok, I better stop now.  It hurts to type things like that on my maize & blue keyboard!!

[Tahnok]

Judging by the slant of the player one and player two buttons, your joysticks are going to be slanted outward. If this is indeed the case, I highly recommend against this. It is extremely hard to play on a joystick that does not parallel the monitor. Plus the little bit of elbowroom it adds is not worth it on that size CP.

[Mameotron]

...your joysticks are going to be slanted outward. If this is indeed the case, I highly recommend against this. It is extremely hard to play on a joystick that does not parallel the monitor.

I wonder why so many people here think this is true.  My CP is laid out very much like Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and I have no problems playing that game with slanted sticks.

I never had a problem playing it in the arcade, either.  No problems with Gauntlet.  Or Dungeons & Dragons.  Or X-Men.  Or....

Seriously, what's up?  Why do people have a hard time with this setup?  It seems natural to me...  gives me that authentic arcade feel, too...

[DougHillman]

mccoy, you may've just been asking about those 6 button holes.  If so, you probably shouldn't have named your thread "CP Layout opinions."  You do that, you're gonna get opinions whether you like them or not.

Mameotron, you maya played all of those games fine.  And you did so because they were laid out the way that most people suggest.  I'm not sure that you understand what is being counseled against here.  Take a look at this pic.  "A" = good.  "B" = bad.

[Xphile]

mccoy, you may've just been asking about those 6 button holes.  If so, you probably shouldn't have named your thread "CP Layout opinions."  You do that, you're gonna get opinions whether you like them or not.

Mameotron, you maya played all of those games fine.  And you did so because they were laid out the way that most people suggest.  I'm not sure that you understand what is being counseled against here.  Take a look at this pic.  "A" = good.  "B" = bad.

Actually, A=bad and b= good.. if the player 3 and 4 are angled to the screen (as it appears by the CP edges) then the controls should be perpendicular to the player.. (or angled the same way the person is standing.)

ie: players 3 and 4 on CP "A" will be playing their characters with q-bert style sticks..in relation to their body position.

no matter where you stand, the brain will equate "stick forward" with "up" on the screen , "stick right" with "right" on the screen..et cetera.

[DougHillman]

Actually, A=bad and b= good.. if the player 3 and 4 are angled to the screen (as it appears by the CP edges) then the controls should be perpendicular to the player.. (or angled the same way the person is standing.)

ie: players 3 and 4 on CP "A" will be playing their characters with q-bert style sticks..in relation to their body position.

no matter where you stand, the brain will equate "stick forward" with "up" on the screen , "stick right" with "right" on the screen..et cetera.

The designers of all the original 4 player games, as well as the huge majority of people who've built 4 player cabinets (and have tried it both ways) say differently.   The body & mind can adapt, but popular opinion from those who've actually compared say that it's much easier when set up as "A".  When the joystick moves the same way that the character on the screen moves, it makes more sense.

D

[Tahnok]

Yes, most people have a hard time adapting. If you don't have a problem playing on an angled stick then be glad. I had to lie down on the couch this past week (broken leg) and I can tell you it is very hard to play gamecube when the controller is not facing the TV.

[Mameotron]

Mameotron, you maya played all of those games fine.  And you did so because they were laid out the way that most people suggest.  I'm not sure that you understand what is being counseled against here.

No, Doug, I understand the problem.  Granted, my quote about playing the arcade games was wrong, because they are all laid out as your example "A".

Maybe a huge majority of builders have done it straight, but honestly it is not hard to adapt.  The angle of the sticks shown on mccoy178's panel is very slight, a lot less than what you have shown in your example "B".

I have built them both ways, and I prefer my current setup with P3 & P4 angled to the screen.  That's just me, and after all, aren't there supposed to be many different opinions here?

[Xphile]

Yes, most people have a hard time adapting. If you don't have a problem playing on an angled stick then be glad. I had to lie down on the couch this past week (broken leg) and I can tell you it is very hard to play gamecube when the controller is not facing the TV.

I'll bet it has a lot to do with the persons' position and screen's relative position to the person...eg: if the person isstanding it's probably easier to adapt than if the person is laying, or reclining...also, if the screen is at right angles to the floor it's probably easier to adapt than if it is tilted back on an angle (like a golden tee or something)..(plus a joystick with your fist wrapped around it would probably be easier to use than a d-pad with your thumb moving forward and back left and right..)

[quarterstringer]

The designers of all the original 4 player games, as well as the huge majority of people who've built 4 player cabinets (and have tried it both ways) say differently.   The body & mind can adapt, but popular opinion from those who've actually compared say that it's much easier when set up as "A".  When the joystick moves the same way that the character on the screen moves, it makes more sense.

D

The 4-player arcade games that I remember playing didn't have control panels shaped like the diagram where P3 & P4 are forced to stand at 45 degree angles.

I built my 4-player with P3 & P4 with angled joysticks at 45 degrees so that they were aligned with their body. Everyone that has played it, has had no problem figuring out which way was up.