Decent MAME Spinner?

[SQrL]

Looking for a fairly cheap solution for adding Spinner(s) to my control pannel.  Did a little searching and ran across these: http://www.mamespinner.com

Anyone know if they are good?  Also, how easy is it to setup seperate analog controls in MAME (spinners, trackballs).  I currently have a HAPPS 3'' USB trackball connected.  So I'm assuming spinners will be added to my OS (win xp pro) as mouse2 & mouse3.

thanks for any input (sorry for the n00b spinner question  )

[NoOne=NBA=]

I haven't used those; but, from the descriptions they give, I'm guessing that they are not weighted like the Oscar and SlikStik ones.

That may be OK for paddle games like Arkanoid, but will probably feel wrong for games like Tempest/Tron/Star Trek/etc...

I would suggest going the extra $4.00 to get an Oscar Model 3, and using your existing trackball interface to do a dual connection, as shown here on Oscar's website.

It will be $10.00 more than the MAMESpinner one if you throw in a rubber knob, but I think you'd be much happier with an Oscar one.

As far as setting them up, you are going to need to go with a MAME version that supports multiple mice, like MAME Analog+.

[Goz]

I've used the spinner from mamespinner.com and they are not weighted. They work fine for games like arcanoid and alike games. But I too would suggest going going for the Oscar. The steering wheel attachment from mamespinner.com is a cool idea and the spinner would work well for car games like champ sprint.

Hope this helps,

-Goz

[daveg2000]

Has anyone used got one of these spinners since they
now have more weight to them?

Just curious.....

[spystyle]

I was working with the Cheep Spinner design and came up with a way to build it for $10, it works a treat! I took a pic with description that illustrates assembly here:

http://tinyurl.com/y35kl6

Nathan Strum was really on to something when he discovered the porch door roller bearing and the construction tie plate, the bearing spins awesome and 2 can be had for $5 at Home Depot. And the tie plate is a perfect solution to making a "non-flanged bearing" mountable in wood, costing only 50 cents!

Weld is perfect, solder also works (big solder, like used to attach metal parts) perhapse silver solder (as used in plumbing with a torch) or JB Weld (amazing cold weld but make sure to rough the surfaces up major with 60 grit or gouges with a dremmel so the JB Weld has something jagged to grip to)

Or I bet your local mechanic would weld it for you for a few bucks.

For the mouse guts and encoder wheel I'd recommend following Nathan Strum's Cheep Spinner tutorial :
http://www.arcadecontrols.com/files/Miscellaneous/spinner.pdf

(or just do a sloppy mouse hack like I did)

I call it the Cheep Spinner Lite!

Dig it?
Craig

[daveg2000]

Looks like a good cheap solution.

I'm trying to avoid hacks and things of the such if I can.

Not cause I can't do it... just that I want to
take the easy way out this time around... and just
plug in a usb cable if possible.

I see a $12 part, that takes time to construct
equal to a $40 part that you have to order and wait for a week
for.   For the extra $28... Id rather rather just be lazy.
(until my wife finds out    )
Then I'll be building the cheap stuff.. ha ha!

[cholin]

Awww thats not the way to think about it   This is people building their own cabinets and controllers, hence BYO, at least consider it.  If you think about it, the $28 this time, and then the few bucks next time, with the cash you save, you can buy better joysticks or siding or something.  Consider it   BTW, nice spinner!  I saw one on a site...lemme get it....http://home.t-online.de/home/stephan.hans/tricks.htm#SPINNER%20for%20superduperarcadeconsole.  This place has a few circuits and stuff, I was going to build the two mouse two keyboard one until I found out how hard it is to find a solderable PS2 port

[daveg2000]

Oh... 


I thought it was "BUY your own arcade controls"
heh

Okay... I guess building isn't COMPLETELY out of the question...
And if it does turn out good, I definaltely would be more
proud of myself for what I have done...

decisions, decisions....

[cholin]

Thats the spirit!  And you figure, if you were GOING to spend the extra couple bucks, and you fail with your mouse hack / custom spinner, you can easily use the money to try again or just order one and you only lost a little bit, and youll feel better for trying   Plus, never know what people will buy now a day!

[spystyle]

Is it just my browser - or did Cholin post twice in this thread - yet his post total is "1"

[fatfingers]

Is it just my browser - or did Cholin post twice in this thread - yet his post total is "1"

Those posts are so old that what you're seeing can probably be accounted for by the half-life of a post!

 

[spystyle]

What is half life of a post?

[Fozzy The Bear]

What is half life of a post?

About 1/4 that of Uranium235

This stuff is now so out of date that the original site listed has been taken over by Spammer Cyber Napping Scum, and the rest of the information is pretty much completely wrong.... except for the cheep spinner...

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[spystyle]

Anyway, back on topic of building a good, inexpensive, spinner.

I made an encoder wheel for my first spinner using a 3" hole saw and sheet metal. To do this I cut a 3" circle (which has a 1/4" center hole) out of sheet metal, attached the encoder wheel template which was printed on sticker paper, and cut the notches with a dremmel.

But this encoder made of sheet metal was flimsey, a thicker sheet metal would have been difficult to cut, and either way an expensive hole saw and arbor must be used. While that is fine for me, because I have that, it would not be cost effective for someone who doesn't have that.

So I started thinking of where a person could get a 3" circle with a 1/4" center hole - it had to be rigid yet easy to cut - viola! A mini CD with a washer in the middle! A mini CD is 3" in diameter (8cm), but it has a 15mm center hole. I found a flat washer that measures 14.5mm O.D. (0.56") and 1/4" I.D. at the hardware store. "USS Flat Washer #10 by Midwest".*

I was curious if a CD could be cut with a dremmel's cutting disk so I cut notches into one. It worked fine and did not crack. I had to sand it after but the whole thing took a leisurely 10 mins to make.

The washer would have to be glued in the middle - I will tape the washer in place from top, flip the disk over, and apply superglue around the outside of the washer.

Once finished i will spray paint the CD flat black

When the spinner is done it will only have cost about $10

What do you think?

Cheers,
Craig

*note, Midwest makes 2 different #10 flat washers, one of them does not have the correct O.D. (outer diameter)

[Fozzy The Bear]

What do you think?

Cheers,
Craig

Cool !!! That's what this forum is all about.... a bit of inovation and do-it-yourself stuff. It's kind of gone out of the window here in the last few years, with people just assembling stuff from off the shelf parts more often than not. I'd guess you could get a lot more teeth onto that wheel by using a slitting saw in the dremel instead.

Best Regards,
Julian (fozzy The Bear)

[spystyle]

Howdy Fozzy,

Nathan Strum recommends 40 teeth on a 3" circle.

Cheers,
Craig

[Fozzy The Bear]

Nathan Strum recommends 40 teeth on a 3" circle.

Yeah, that's true.... but given that if you use a mouse hack, the mouse teeth are closer together than that, then you can create a disk with a much higher resolution. The higher the resolution the better! Mame can scale the input to suit the game you want to play.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[spystyle]

In his guide he claims that too many teeth can create a problem for mouse hacks. Apparently mice are not designed to move so quickly, so they would not be able to process the amount of signals from a very fine wheel moving fast. He claims it can create a "strobing effect" and the mouse curser doesn't move, or floats slowly backwards.

But he provides 2 other templates in his guide so you could test all 3 if you like.

Cheers,
Craig

[Fozzy The Bear]

I've been doing mouse hacks for a while Craig.... It really depends on the mouse you use. Some are better than others. You need to experiment to find the best resolution you can force on any particular mouse and try different mice.  40T in current terms is very low, and you will find that some games are unplayable with only that many teeth.

The best mouse I found yet was a really cheap £2 one in a supermarket. Beat the pants off the £20 microsoft one I tried.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[spystyle]

I see,

I guess I will try all 3

Cheers,
Craig

[Chris]

I've been doing mouse hacks for a while Craig.... It really depends on the mouse you use.

Do you have any suggestions?  USB ball mice are hard to find these days.  Are Logitech's still considered unusable?

[patrickl]

Aren't logitechs "claimed unusable" only for hacking it to connect a trackball or spinner to it? In this case the mouse will become the spinner so wouldn't every (ball) mouse work?

[Fozzy The Bear]

Do you have any suggestions?  USB ball mice are hard to find these days.  Are Logitech's still considered unusable?

Shop around a bit..... I picked up a USB Ball mouse for £2 from the local supermarket and it came with a USB to PS2 converter.

There doesn't seem to be any shortage of USB mice.

In any case, it doesn't have to be a USB Mouse. You can do exactly the same with a PS2 Mouse..... you can even plug a PS2 mouse into a serial port instead by using a PS2 to Serial converter plug.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[Fozzy The Bear]

Aren't logitechs "claimed unusable" only for hacking it to connect a trackball or spinner to it? In this case the mouse will become the spinner so wouldn't every (ball) mouse work?

Any ball mouse will work.... but it's a question of how well they work. Some work much better than others at reading the disk. It depends how good the optic board in the mouse is. You have to try a few different ones until you find a really good one.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[spystyle]

Fozzy,

Who manufactured this "supermarket mouse" that you recommend?

Cheers,
Craig

[patrickl]

Aren't logitechs "claimed unusable" only for hacking it to connect a trackball or spinner to it? In this case the mouse will become the spinner so wouldn't every (ball) mouse work?

Any ball mouse will work.... but it's a question of how well they work. Some work much better than others at reading the disk. It depends how good the optic board in the mouse is. You have to try a few different ones until you find a really good one.

I was responding more to the "unusable" that Chris mentioned. I remembered the same, but I think only in connection to using them as optic boards for trackballs (i.e a mouse hack). But anyway, nevermind I guess.

More on topic, I was wondering if one could use a overhead projector film with a wheel laser-printed on it and stick that to a acrylic wheel or something? Would be easier than perfectly cutting out the teeth yourself and you could get a pretty high teeth count with a laser print too.

[Kremmit]

I'm pretty sure I've seen projects with encoder wheels just printed out onto transparency film.

Logitech mice are fine to hack with this method; where you're using the existing mouse optics.  Logitech mice are unsuitable for the other mouse hack type; where you're de-soldering the mouse optics and wiring external optic boards to the mouse, as in the case of hacking a mouse to interface a trackball.

[spystyle]

OK, I made the encoder wheel as planned.

I printed the template out onto sticker paper, stuck it to a mini CD, glued the #10 USS washer in the middle (applying glue to the outer edge of the washer only, none in the washer's center hole), I let the glue cure for 12 hours, then cut the CD with the dremmel, then sanded and spray painted it with flat black paint.

The washer stayed in place even when I was cutting, sanding, and flexing the cd - it is permanantly affixed.

This is an encoder wheel anyone can easily make :)

Cheers,
Craig

[spystyle]

and to recap, here is the spinner plan

[patrickl]

maybe I missed it somewhere, but why not just use the encoder wheel from the mouse itself?

[spystyle]

Because it would be too easy!

*just kidding*

I really don't know. I made my own spinner based on the "Cheep Spinner" which uses a 3" encoder wheel.

Here is a page with slew of spinners, they all have, what looks like 2" and larger wheels:

http://www.retroblast.com/reviews/roundup.html

The Tempest spinner looks like a 4" wheel (you could make that from a regular CD instead of a mini)

Cheers,
Craig

[Zeppo]

So, how does it play?

[SithMaster]

im probably going to build one just for the fun of it.  i just need to buy a mouse.

yes how does it play?  considering weighing down the bottom perhaps.

[spystyle]

It plays well :)

As for weight, it has plenty of weight provided by the dozen fender washers.

Cheers,
Craig

[Fozzy The Bear]

Fozzy,
Who manufactured this "supermarket mouse" that you recommend?

It was an ASDA own brand one.... but that was over 12 months ago, so you may not find the exact same mouse in there now.

The best bet is to try a few cheap mice to see what works out.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[DrumAnBass]

For my hard drive hack spinner I used the encoder wheel from the mouse I hacked and it seems to be great...  The mouse I used is similar to this:
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=HTM-50W&cat=MOU

For the knob I used half a yo-yo.

[spystyle]

.

[spystyle]

Fozzy,
Who manufactured this "supermarket mouse" that you recommend?

It was an ASDA own brand one.... but that was over 12 months ago, so you may not find the exact same mouse in there now.

The best bet is to try a few cheap mice to see what works out.

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

Was the PCB labeled? Do you have links or pics of your spinners?

Cheers,
Craig

[patrickl]

That is far out! I wonder why all the other spinners use large wheels? I guess I'll have to try both - I 'spose I could drill a 1/4" hole in a mouse encoder wheel to use in the above spinner and compare the two.

On second thought - I bet they make the wheels larger so they will have more rotations per knob twist. A large encoder wheel will move a greater distance per knob twist than a smaller encoder wheel. 

Cheers,
Craig

The only difference I could think of is the size of the teeth. Maybe old fashioned optics could not make out the tiny teeth used in mouse optics. The speed with wich the teeth move past the optics would be the same if you have a large or small wheel. Well maybe not the speed, but the timing of the pulses would be the same (if you keep the same number of teeth).

[spystyle]

.

[Fozzy The Bear]

I have it figured like so:

1" knob with 1" wheel = 1:1 rotation
1" knob with 10" wheel = 10 encoder wheel rotations per 1 knob rotation.

No Craig.... The encoder wheel is on the same shaft as the knob..... There's no gear ratio to calcluate here. 
1" knob with 1" wheel = 1:1 rotation
1" knob with 10" wheel = 1:1 rotation
1"knob with 200foot wheel still =1:1 rotation.

and in reply to your other question, No the mouse board I found to be a good one had no manufacturer marks on it. Although I still have the box for it and that just says PC Compatible classic scroll mouse PS2.  You might be able to get the manufacturer from the technical support address they included on the box. http://technical.philex.com   also try:  http://www.philexproducts.com/mice_and_accessories.html

Best Regards,
Julian (Fozzy The Bear)

[spystyle]

.

[RandyT]

I have it figured like so:

1" knob with 1" wheel = 1:1 rotation

1" knob with 10" wheel = 10 encoder wheel rotations per 1 knob rotation.

Craig, you are off base here, or at least are presenting your thoughts in a very misleading way.  1 revolution of the knob always equals one revolution of the encoder wheel.  The sizes, more likely than not, have more to do with the ability of an individual (or laser cutter) to create the number of "teeth" in the selected medium and do it accurately.  If the minimum size aperture you can create is .100" , then it stands to reason that a 72 aperture encoder will need to have a circumference of (72 x 2) x .1 or 14.4".  If I still remember my geometry, that comes out to a diameter of a little over 4 1/2".

However, if you use the same pitch on a larger diameter, you will obviously be increasing the resolution of the wheel, and sending more data per revolution.  But the ratio will always be 1:1.

The problems come when you use very fast movements with slow mouse circuitry, or exceed the original aperture count (resolution) of the mouse encoder.  If you are looking for mice to hack, look for ones that claim to be "high-resolution", and stick with newer ones rather than some very old junker from the dark ages.

And while projects like this one can be fun, unless you have a lot of time on your hands and very little money, you may find that end result is a little disappointing based on the effort required to do it.  Those who place value on their time will likely want to look for a different solution.

FWIW,
RandyT

I see Julian also chimed in.  Too slow again

[spystyle]

.

[RandyT]

Thanks for helping with the math!

No problem.

This project is in keeping with the spirit of the forum.

Absolutely.  And FWIW, I wasn't even suggesting my own products.  eBay is a great source for usually inexpensive spinners that can be used with MAME with the proper interface / mouse hack.  At minimum wage, the do-it-yourself spinner would probably cost $35 in labor plus parts.  For not too much more than that, one can get a well-used, but functional true arcade spinner, which would probably be much nicer at the end of the day.  It won't be up to par with some of the latest commercial offerings, but still better than homebrew.

There are also less time-intensive ways to make encoder wheels than trying to cut one by hand.  Laser transparencies and so on.  Even using the original encoder from the mouse could be a far better solution.  The mouse encoder will normally be higher res than you can cut by hand and take up much less space.  It will also already be the right size for the geometry of the sensor layout.  One of the most interesting methods I saw for doing this was drilling a hole centered in the end of the spinner shaft that was just large enough for the shaft of the mouse encoder to go into. 

and you don't yet offer an "eco" spinner

I'll have to think about that one.  I have seen at least one person put the ceiling at $40, so I'm not sure what can be done there.  People tend to expect far more in terms of durability and performance from a commercial product than one they build themselves, so it may not be possible to do it in a way to make people happy with the result.

RandyT

*edit to address your edit*

BTW: It is not admirable to dissuade people from "building their own arcade controls" in a forum called "build your own arcade controls"

I'm not trying to "dissuade" anyone from anything.  But I do know the quality of the end results from these endeavors because I have done every one of them myself.  I wasted a lot of time on these types of projects and was never happy with the results.  Even when done well, they are mostly sub-par performers when finished.  It's important that this is noted when presenting this type of project (especially one as ancient in premise) so that new individuals do not have unreasonable expectations on the return for the time they invest and walk away from the hobby in frustration. 

As I said, it can be a fun project to do just for sake of doing it.  But there are other methods of getting from A to B that may have a better return for far less investment.  And that does not automatically mean you have to purchase a "plug and go product" either.

[spystyle]

.

[RandyT]

Why bother building anything at all when you can buy it?

That is a perfectly reasonable question to ask when

A:  The quality is much higher

and

B:  The cost is comparable.  (Note that costs are not always associated only with cash)


But I will answer your question with a few of my own:

How many here build their own joysticks?  Do you?  Why not? 

Does that mean you didn't "build your own arcade controls" because it uses IL joysticks?  Does it also mean that you did not build the spinner because you purchased every one of the items that make it up and used it in a different way than it was intended?

My take may not be the same as others, but this site has primarily been about making control panels from whatever was readily and reasonably available in order to best duplicate the arcade experiences we remember.  Six years ago, when that PDF was published, we had to do an awful lot of McGuyvering to get the job done.  Technology marches on in spite of the methods of the past, and what was a good idea 6 years ago looks entirely different today.  To ignore this is to become quagmired and places an artificial ceiling on the quality of the end result.

However, In the spirit of "roll your own", let me make this suggestion; buy a trackball booster kit from my website and base your homebrew spinner on that.  The encoders are laser cut from stainless steel, have 50% higher resolution than the dremeled ones and are a lot smaller.  Plus you'll have an extra to give as a present to a friend.  BTW, I don't build them myself, and the company that cuts them for me doesn't smelt their own metal.  But that doesn't mean the we both didn't contribute significantly to their existence.

RandyT

[spystyle]

.

[RandyT]

*sigh*

It is unreasonable to build your own spinner because Randy sells them.

If this is all you took from my comments, then that is all you were looking to take from them.  Which is odd, as I never once stated nor alluded to this ideal.  I'm only encouraging people to do it better, lest they go through what I did when I went down this path.  OSCAR used to sell his encoder wheels separately so people could make a better homebrew spinner and I offered the same.  If I was only interested in selling spinners, that would have been the last thing I'd have done.

Your comments are unfair / single sighted and you have made no attempt to speak to the points I have raised.  But I will speak to yours (again)

In the future he may sell CNC cut arcade cabinets - at that time it will become unreasonable to build an arcade cabinet using a jigsaw and wood because it's quality will be "subpar" to what can be purchased.

This is ludicrous.  You are comparing aesthetic construction with mechanical efficiency.  They aren't even similar.

RandyT

[spystyle]

.

[Kaytrim]

Ok fighters, return to your corners.    This was an interesting argument and not entirely pointless.  IMHO you can interpret BYOAC to be either Build Your Own or Buy Your Own.  It is all a matter of taste, skills and cash.  Personally I own an Oscar Vortex spinner that I have hacked into a mouse.  In that regard I am of both camps.

  I will say that I like the idea of using Randy's encoder wheels to build your own spinner.  I might even do that to build the CP for my FE.  Using a spinner to page through the games list sounds like a good idea and one that I am currently working on.

[patrickl]

A guy tries to share some information and he has to put up with all this? What a drag! You are relentless!

It is so obvious that you are trying to discourage people from building things that you sell.

I think he is just warning people might be disappointed by the result you get from building your own spinner. To be honest I would agree with that. A spinner with a tooth count of 40 will only be usable for a few games at best.

The spinners that are sold by GGG and Ultimarc (and probably others) are far superior to anything you could build yourself.

There is a difference from discouraging people from building stuff themselves altogether and pointing out that some parts of a cabinet are better bought.

For instance, you could start molding your own pushbuttons and creating your own switches from aluminum foil or something. On the other hand just buying a few pushbuttons with switches (micro or leaf) will give you a much better endresult and save loads of time. I doubt many people would consider making their own buttons.

Of course spinners are very expensive so it makes more sense to build one of those yourself and of course you will have some fun with it. On the other hand if people are seriously interested in spinner games it makes sense to warn them ahead that it will cost them a lot of time while the result might not have been worth all the effort.

With regards to the BYO name joke, I think the site has been more about "Build Your Own Arcade Cabinet" than about building the controls for years now.

[spystyle]

Well, the bottom line is -

This spinner cost $10 and takes 2 hours to build. It plays Tempest just fine (I just got done playing a round). Does it compare to a $70 commercial spinner? I would imagine not! But I don't have a commercial spinner to compare it to.

Naturally, whenever you can - buy the very best.

But if you can't afford that - or maybe you're like me and would rather spoil your child with toys than yourself - here is a spinner that costs $10 and works fine.

It's better than no spinner at all.

Happy gaming,
Craig