4 Player CP layout

[WwonderLlama]

=============================================================
My links in this thread are largely broken, and I haven't tracked down the source
files again.  My MAME gallery is now at:
  http://www.llamamuds.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=33&g2_page=2
=============================================================

Hey all,

  Well, I've read through the Project Arcade book and sifted through more BYOAC-related sites than I can count.  So I'm getting ready to start my first cab, and I thought I'd see what kind of opinions the group might have about the layout I chose. I'm using the Gimp to design my plans and I'm pretty new to it, so please be kind.

The nice pic that shows the artwork well:
4cp-radial-black.jpg

The pic that shows the enclosure of the cp box:
4cp-radial-box.jpg

A few facts:

• The cp measures 38"x18 1/8".  I'm likely to trim the top panel down to 36"x17" or so, but leave the internal dimensions the same.
• I'm mounting pinball flipper buttons on the left and right side, provided the CP doesn't end up being too wide.
• I'm not overly attached to the positioning of the P1 and P2 controls.  
• I'll have a coin door for P1 and P2, but P3 and P4 are iffy. (depends on the coin door I buy)  I plan to mount P3 and P4 pushbuttons on the underside of the CP if my coin door has less than 4 slots.
• I'm thinking I'll use an I-PAC4, so not all of the admin buttons will be required.  What other functionality would be useful in their place?
• P1-P4 have 8-way joysticks, the extra (above P1) is a 4-way.
• I'm thinking of installing a translucent green or blue trackball (backlit).  Which do you think would look better?

All opinions are welcome (but may not be heeded if they're too far out of my pricerange or vision).

Thanks!
Phill W

P.S.  I used the templates out of the Project Arcade book.  Everything in the above-linked pictures should be to scale. Great book, by the way!  I'm sure the BYOAC tokens I ordered will be just as high-quality.  8)

[Doug]

I'm doing something very similar but instead of using coins I'm going to have insert coin buttons (just to save money.  I can always add a coin door later).  I also put the spinner on the left and the four way on the right, that was just a matter of personal  preference though. I'll probably also add some buttons next to either the four way, the spinner, or both.  I'm also considering giving players 1 and 2 a seven button layout.

I'm curious, what joysticks do you plan to use?

[WwonderLlama]

I had the spinner and 4-way reversed like you're thinking, but I figured I'd have less interference from the P1 and P2 joysticks with the current configuration. I also had the 7-button layout on P1 and P2, but after looking at the games that would use that extra button, I decided to get rid of it since I wouldn't likely be playing them much.

I'm using Happs Compettition joysticks for P1-P4.  I haven't decided on the 4-way controller yet.  If the Compettition sticks work well enough on 4-way games, I may just leave the actual 4-way out.

[WwonderLlama]

Oh, I guess I should update the links.

The links are now in a gallery at:
http://www.llamamuds.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=33&g2_page=2

[DougHillman]

My $.02:

P3 & P4 will be standing there with their most sensative areas jamming right into the sharp edge of your front angles.

I'd probably try to find a way to pull the box in and change those angles so the sharp corners aren't right there.  

Check out what I'm talking about with the one I just built.  'bout halfway down the page are some pics.  

You wouldn't need to go as radical and rounded as I did.  Just shortening the sides up a handful of inches so that the corner is higher up the side would fix it up.  Don't shorten too much though, or you run into the same problem for P1 & P2.

[unclet]

1) You might need to move your buttons and joysticks closer in from the sides if you are using 2x2 to construct you control box to give it strength (ie: dont want the underneath part of your buttons or joysticks to be hitting wood

2) Not sure what games you like to play, but I think your P3 and P4 joystick positioning is too rotated.   I like to play two-player (or one-player) Karate Champ and Smash TV games which rely on each player having two joysticks.  This would mean that one player would use P1 and P3 joysticks and the other player would use P2 and P4 joysticks.  With the P3 and P4 joysticks being so rotated, I would think it would be hard to play these types of games since it would be hard to generate a multiple UP movement on both joysticks quickly (ie: since P3 joystick is rotated, it might produce a LEFT click instead)  ..... does this make sense?

3) You should make sure when someone is really flipping that trackball that their wrist (or forearm) does not slam into the P2 joystick shaft.

4) If you are thinking about installing a control panel door to house a keyboard (which could slide in/out) then you must make sure to allow room for mounting buttons up through the underneath part of your control box......just something to think about regarding positioning.    

You can check my 4-player control panel out at
http://unclet.arcadecontrols.com if you are interested.

Good luck
UncleT

[WwonderLlama]

Doug,

  Thanks for the input, but I'm not really sure I understand what you mean. Can you give me a link to some pics of your cab?

As a side note, I drilled out my test cp with P1 and P2 horizontal and P3-P4 are approximately at the angles shown in the design.

-Phill

[DougHillman]

Ooops, meant to include the link to the thread showing the CP I just finished.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=23028

BTW, have you already purchased your Happs Competitions?  If not, get Ultimarc T-Stik Plus switchable 8/4-ways instead and you can dispense with the dedicated 4-way.  IME, any 8-way is NOT acceptable for serious 4-way gameplay.

[unclet]

Basically some arcade games (ie: Karate Champ and Smash TV) were designed so a player must use two joysticks themselves to play the game.   If you were going to play two-player Karate Champ with a friend on your cab, you would hold P1 joystick in your right hand and P3 joystick in your left while your friend would hold P4 joystick in their right hand and P2 joystick in their left hand.

If you wanted to do a nice Karate move and kick your friend in the head, you would move the joystick which is in your right hand UP while at the same time moving the joystick in your left hand to the LEFT (I think that is the round about kick to the head move.... ).

Anyway, you ge the picture .... two joystick for each player.   If you wanted to play these type games, it would be hard for you to quickly move your P4 joystick (the one in your left hand) to be in the LEFT position due to the way the joysticks are positioned (ie: turned diagonally a bit).  Basically you might register a DOWN instead of a LEFT movement by accident.

I gave you my link before ..... here it is again -->

PS: I am not sure the reason why you are trying to keep the width of your control panel so small for 4-players, but just keep in mind you most likely will have this cabinet for a very long time, so just make sure you try to do everything right the first time.  Dont want to make it too small (or too big I guess).   Not to say, the control panel wont work for you, but I would recommend not cutting any corners unless you absolutely must.   Of couse if your girlfriend/wife is just looking at you saying something like "you are going to make what .... and put it where.....", then you most likely wont have clearance to make the control panel wider anyways .....

Good luck.....

[WwonderLlama]

1) You might need to move your buttons and joysticks closer in from the sides if you are using 2x2 to construct you control box to give it strength (ie: dont want the underneath part of your buttons or joysticks to be hitting wood

2) ....

3) You should make sure when someone is really flipping that trackball that their wrist (or forearm) does not slam into the P2 joystick shaft.

4) If you are thinking about installing a control panel door to house a keyboard ....

You can check my 4-player control panel out at
http://unclet.arcadecontrols.com if you are interested.

UncleT,

  I'd actually come across your cab in my search for a 4player design; that's quite the cab!  Unfortunately, space is at a premium for me, so I have to keep the cp as small as is practical. I'm currently working with a 36.5" width, but will probably expand it to 39-40" to free up some elbow room for the players.

Thanks for the input!  I'll start at the top and work my way down.

1) I'm planning on using 3/4" MDF scraps for the sides of the control panel box, so the sides shouldn't be overly thick.  I'm probably going to be widening the cp box as well, so that should help with the angles on P3-P4.  

2) I've actually never played a game that required the use of two joysticks.  Honestly, I only made the cp 4 player to accomodate games like xmen and TMNT, so I'm not worried about the joystick angles for those types of 2 player games.

3) This was one of my worries.... I don't forsee any golf-type games being played on this cab.  I decided to put the trackball in for centipede and such, but the placement of that P2 joystick is definately a concern.

4) I'm currently running debian, so I won't need a keybaord for the most part.  Now if I can only get the video card's TV-out working, I'll be in business.  Anyone know how to get a Voodoo3 working with debian?  Modelines, etc?

Thanks again,

-Phill

[WwonderLlama]

Ooops, meant to include the link to the thread showing the CP I just finished.

http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=23028

BTW, have you already purchased your Happs Competitions?  If not, get Ultimarc T-Stik Plus switchable 8/4-ways instead and you can dispense with the dedicated 4-way.  IME, any 8-way is NOT acceptable for serious 4-way gameplay.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Yeah, I already bought the Happs and I couldn't agree with you more about the 8-way as a 4-way being a bad thing.

[WwonderLlama]

I gave you my link before ..... here it is again -->

PS: I am not sure the reason why you are trying to keep the width of your control panel so small for 4-players, but just keep in mind you most likely will have this cabinet for a very long time, so just make sure you try to do everything right the first time.  Dont want to make it too small (or too big I guess).   Not to say, the control panel wont work for you, but I would recommend not cutting any corners unless you absolutely must.   Of couse if your girlfriend/wife is just looking at you saying something like "you are going to make what .... and put it where.....", then you most likely wont have clearance to make the control panel wider anyways .....

Good luck.....

Okay, I've gone and gotten myself all confused.  I saw your link, but didn't see one from DougHillman, but thanks for reposting it anyway.

As for the PS., you're getting the right idea.  This cab is supposed to complement an entertainment room, not dominate it.  Another major reason I want to keep the cp as narrow as possible is that I plan on playing pinball games, and am going to install flipper buttons on the sides.  

My wife was initially quite unimpressed with the MAME project, but she's slowly coming around, and I want to make it as asthetically pleasing as possible (to increase her buy-in).  On the bright side, I hooked up my scrap control panel and got her playing Golden Axe.  She ended up playing it until she beat it!

[unclet]

If the wife is unimpressed, then do not ever consider making a 6-sided rotating driving cabinet  

PS:  MY 4-player cab has pinball buttons on it.   Check out the design of the control panel top.  The pinball buttons are placed at a comfortable distance like you are planning for yours.... I simply made made control panel top to accomodate that requirement as well.    I also placed a button to use as a plunger....  

[cdbrown]

If you were to check out the control panels for 4-player games like TMNT, xmen, nba Jam etc, you would see that all the joysticks are oriented the same direction.  I originally thought of having my joysticks like yours but after trialling them in cardboard I found it rather difficult to play properly.  Basically you can rotate the buttons around to make space but i would suggest straightening up the joysticks so that up on each joystick is perpendicular to the screen.

[unclet]

I agree with cdbrown.   Just imagine trying to play a game (ie: Xmen) and you need to do one of those crazy moves quickly.  The person is looking at the screen somewhat from the side and joystick is rotated so the brain will find it hard to function the joystick properly (at least my brain .... )

[DougHillman]

It's a little unclear as to who's advocating what here.    

Most people who construct 4 player CP's like this only angle the layout of the stick & button combo for P3 & P4, they don't actually angle the sticks.   On the 4 player CP I just built (linked in the previous post by me in this thread) ALL 4 of the main joysticks have their "Up" throw in the same direction.  Straight up torwards the top of the CP.  P3 & P4 "up" throws are not angled in.  There has been more than one thread discussing this in the past and the general concensus is that all original 4 player games were laid out this way, and that it just makes more sense.  

I can't find the thread that this came from, but I did keep the pic.   Layout "A" is correct, Layout "B" would be confusing for players 3 & 4 as well as being unusable for multiplayer dual-stick games.  (Though, of course, Layout "A" is incorrect in that there's no need for more than 4 buttons for P3 & P4.     )

[cdbrown]

Layout A in terms of joystick orientation.  As for the buttons you can have them slightly rotated, located below the stick (P3) or above the stick (P4) to create more space - I have done this for my panel.

[WwonderLlama]

If you were to check out the control panels for 4-player games like TMNT, xmen, nba Jam etc, you would see that all the joysticks are oriented the same direction.  I originally thought of having my joysticks like yours but after trialling them in cardboard I found it rather difficult to play properly.  Basically you can rotate the buttons around to make space but i would suggest straightening up the joysticks so that up on each joystick is perpendicular to the screen.

I found a pic of the TMNT cabinet at:
http://www.klov.net/T/Teenage_Mutant_Ninja_Turtles.html

The buttons for P3-P4 are rotated to 90 degrees of the monitor... are you sure the joysticks' "up" position points toward the monitor? If I were standing with my hands on the joysticks and buttons, I'd have to move my hand to the left to get an "up" motion from the joystick.  I haven't played TMNT in a long time, but I don't remember it being like that.

My current plan is to construct a few cp's out of $5 sheets of partical board and play-test them. Better to spend $20 getting a good feel than having a cp that's unplayable, right?

[Bgnome]

you can barely see the carriage bolts in that pic but you can see that all the joysticks are mounted the same way: up towards the screen.  you dont remember because you most likely did not notice.  people playing 3 and 4 will be standing somewhat at the sides of the machine and turning their heads to look at the screen.  movement feels more natural when it is relative to the movement of characters on the screen.  if people on that TMNT cab were playing 3 and 4 and controls were relative to their position, UP would be towards the center of the cp, which would be 90 degrees off from the direction characters would actually be moving.  i think that would be a lot more noticeable and take some getting used to.
you dont even need to spend $5 on particle board..  you can use cardboard or i have seen some people use a plank for fences..

[WwonderLlama]

...
Most people who construct 4 player CP's like this only angle the layout of the stick & button combo for P3 & P4, they don't actually angle the sticks.   .......  There has been more than one thread discussing this in the past and the general concensus is that all original 4 player games were laid out this way, and that it just makes more sense.  

I can't find the thread that this came from, but I did keep the pic.   Layout "A" is correct, Layout "B" would be confusing for players 3 & 4 as well as being unusable for multiplayer dual-stick games.  ...

(Quote edited for brevity.)

My first instinct is that it'd be harder to control if the joystick directions weren't inline with the buttons, but I'll play-test it and see which is more intuitive.  I'm not concerned with the 2-stick games, so having different angles on the joysticks won't be an issue on that front.

It's been way too long since I played a 4 player game in the arcade, but it always seemed that the players all stood at angles from each other and their controls were similarly angled.  After playing with a mockup cp w/ P1 & P3, I've realized that P3 is too angled and probably too close to P1.  I'm planning on widening the control panel and relaxing the angles of P3 and P4 to give the players more room.  I'm not quite convinced that having P3 and P4's "up" position facing the monitors is correct, but I'll give it a try.  (It's completely likely that I'll end up being wrong, but I guess I need to learn the hard way )

[WwonderLlama]

you can barely see the carriage bolts in that pic but you can see that all the joysticks are mounted the same way: up towards the screen.  you dont remember because you most likely did not notice.  people playing 3 and 4 will be standing somewhat at the sides of the machine and turning their heads to look at the screen.  movement feels more natural when it is relative to the movement of characters on the screen.  if people on that TMNT cab were playing 3 and 4 and controls were relative to their position, UP would be towards the center of the cp, which would be 90 degrees off from the direction characters would actually be moving.  i think that would be a lot more noticeable and take some getting used to.

Point taken, and you're almost asuredly right.  

you dont even need to spend $5 on particle board..  you can use cardboard or i have seen some people use a plank for fences..

I tried the cardboard bit, and although it gave a sense of proportion, I couldn't tell how it'd feel.  Since I'm modelling the whole cp (not just the joysticks),  I need wood that's roughly 2'x4'x3/4" and particleboard is the closest think I found.

[DougHillman]

Bgnome is 100% corrrect.  Seriously, I'm sure somebody put some thought and research into this when they were designing the original cabinets.   The layout may be angled on the CP, but the sticks are always mounted so that it's relative to the characters onscreen.  Don't try & reinvent the wheel.

[WwonderLlama]

...Don't try & reinvent the wheel.

Hey, if noone tried to re-invent the wheel, we'd still have square wheels!  

Like I said, I'll give it a try and I'm sure he's right.

[WwonderLlama]

Well, for those of you that followed this thread in it's infancy, here's a quick update:

I decided to go with a 42" wide panel and mounted all the joysticks with the same orientation (as suggested).  The people on P3 and P4 though it was cumbersome, but were able to get used to it after a few quarters-worth of playing.

Thanks for all the help!

Current status:
artwork: http://www.llamamuds.com/gallery/ControlPanel/arranging_buttons  (I've cleaned up the lines a little since then, but it's still basically the same.)

Cabinet phase: http://www.llamamuds.com/gallery/cabinetconst/MAME_10_15_04_012

Planned artwork/paintjob: http://www.llamamuds.com/gallery/cabinetconst/artwork_black_game_001

I'll be submitting these and other pics in the projects area in the (hopefully near) future. As always, comments are welcome.

Thanks again for the input!

--Phill

[johnnysmitch]

I actually never considered having 4 joys all aligned in the same axis on my cp... looking at all the 4p control panel examples here with the angled buttons, I kinda assumed that the sticks were rotated too    I went ahead and built mine at an angle though, (with t-nut mounting, so I hope I don't have to attempt to change em...) so hopefully when i get my Ipac working for them, I can try them out and post here my feelings on the matter.  Keep in mind, though, that it might be a bit different since mine's a showcase-style

[versapak]

I found gameplay absolutely horrible with player 3 & 4 sticks aligned the same way as 1 & 2.


Even though I am looking at the screen at an angle, I consciously know the player is moving right, up, or whatever. This translates to my hands to make a normal right, up, or whatever movement. Not a slightly skewed angle to match the actual direction the display is facing.

I tried for a long time to play with the joystick not matching the position I was standing, and it just didn't work. It always felt uncomfortable. (Example A)

The second I held the stick at the same 45 degree angle I was at, it felt 100% natural. (Example B)



Obviously it is a "to each his own" sort of thing, but of the 4 people I had test with me,  I didn't have anybody express the opposite of the opinion I formed.



(The only problem I have with my layout now, is that Smash TV is not very playable.)

[dmish82]

I found gameplay absolutely horrible with player 3 & 4 sticks aligned the same way as 1 & 2.


Even though I am looking at the screen at an angle, I conciously know the player is moving right, up, or whatever. This translates to my hands to make a normal right, up, or whatever movement. Not a slightly skewed angle to match the actual direction the display is facing.

I tried for a long time to play with the joystick not matching the position I was standing, and it just didn't work. It always felt uncomfortable. (Example A)

The second I held the stick at the same 45 degree angle I was at, it felt 100% natural. (Example B)



Obviously it is a "to each his own" sort of thing, but of the 4 people I had test with me,  I didn't have anybody express the opposite of the opinion I formed.



(The only problem I have with my layout now, is that Smash TV is not very playable.)

I completely agree. I angled my joysticks(approx 45 degrees) and am very glad that I did so b/c it feels completely natural. To me it just doesn't make sense to stand at an angle, have your buttons at an angle, and then have the joysticks not at an angle.  So layout B worked very well for me.

[GGKoul]

I have layout B with P3 & P4 with 4 buttons and a trackball between P1 & P2.

[quarterstringer]

I think the joystick orientation depends on the shape of the control panel. If it's rectangular (A), like the arcade games (Simpsons, TMNT, NBA Jam etc.) Then have the joysticks facing the same direction.

But if the control panel has 45 degree angles (B), forcing players 3 & 4 to stand that way, then have the joysticks angled at 45 degrees.