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Author Topic: Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system  (Read 15550 times)

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MadEditor

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2004, 04:55:03 am »
Maybe we should not forget that MAME for most "normal" people is totally unknown... And taking that the price of a REAL arcade cab with only ONE game is around 4K or 5K, 8K is not so much for a system with that much games....

Most "normal" people without any knowledged friend would even think it's a bargain !!! :)

pcdoctor

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2004, 05:13:04 am »
What normal person can pay $8000 for a video game?
Then again, normal to you might not be normal to me.
I guess Bill Gates or Oprah wouldn't blink at paying $8000 but then again Oprah might say $8000 for a video game?

Maybe we should not forget that MAME for most "normal" people is totally unknown... And taking that the price of a REAL arcade cab with only ONE game is around 4K or 5K, 8K is not so much for a system with that much games....

Most "normal" people without any knowledged friend would even think it's a bargain !!! :)


Gildersneeze

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #42 on: July 13, 2004, 06:34:34 am »
If you get that much money for a cab, why bother learning woodworking. I got a quote for $500 for getting my cab built. If I wasn't doing this for a hobby I'd sure take them up on that quote (or at least get more quotes to find something cheaper).
Is that $500 with the hardware and paint, or just the wood?  Because that's one hell of a markup too.  Three sheets of 3/4" MDF is about $50 - $75 depending on where you get it
Actually that was for furniture grade wood (I think that was about $120), but the biggest chunk of the cash is because the carpenter wants payment for the time he spends building the cab.

I'm amazed you think $75 is a reasonable price for a days work of a carpenter. How would you feel if you were paid $75 a day? I'm afraid $75 is more like the hourly rate for a carpenter.
Right, I know.  I was thinking you were talking about a woodshop, not just a single carpenter.  $500 is more realistic (and actually cheap as hell) when you don't have eight to twenty guys all working on several projects all at once.  If this carpenter's a solo act, then he really ought to ask for more than that for the job.

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #43 on: July 13, 2004, 09:12:40 am »
This is the worst of it all...

We will
> soon be adding all the games ever released for the
> Atari 2600, Playstation and Xbox and other home
> systems.


If not licensed, these are the roms/software that will get him and others in trouble.  (PS, Xbox, etc)

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #44 on: July 13, 2004, 09:55:22 am »
I'm amazed you think $75 is a reasonable price for a days work of a carpenter. How would you feel if you were paid $75 a day? I'm afraid $75 is more like the hourly rate for a carpenter.

I completely agree. And not only would a pro charge you for time, but they will also charge you for the wear and tear on their tools.  

Someone earlier totaled up about $2,000 in parts not including computer. Let's assume that is correct and includes the computer. Then let's throw in 40 hours of labor at $25 an hour (cheap!!). That brings it to $3,000 without any mark-up. Many products, especially products low on the adoption curve, have greater than 50% profit margins, which would price that cab in a competitive market in the $6,000+ range.

If it's just a question of price compared to raw material cost then almost all products on the market are incredibly expensive.  But there is way more than just raw materials that go into the total cost of a product. You have to throw in all capital investments (labor, capital purchases etc.) account for risk, factor in time value of money, account for taxes & depreciation. It adds up quickly.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2004, 04:32:09 pm »
Either way you look at,8Gs isn't reasonable at all :-\
He need to be a LITTLE bit more honest on this and atleast give out the specs of the computer inside.Reasonable price for a 4 player cabinet would be like $5000 with a very high end computer(best money can buy).Just TAKING someone else's marquee and pretending like its his work isn't cool either.I know its just photoshop but do your own or something...



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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #46 on: July 13, 2004, 05:01:06 pm »
Either way you look at,8Gs isn't reasonable at all :-\
He need to be a LITTLE bit more honest on this and atleast give out the specs of the computer inside.

I disagree.  He is not selling a computer.  He is selling a gaming machine for Mame.  As long as it plays all the games he says it does he is fine.

The price however, is crazy.  I think $5k would b fine though if he could get it.

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #47 on: July 13, 2004, 05:11:12 pm »
Either way you look at,8Gs isn't reasonable at all :-\
He need to be a LITTLE bit more honest on this and atleast give out the specs of the computer inside.

I disagree.  He is not selling a computer.  He is selling a gaming machine for Mame.  As long as it plays all the games he says it does he is fine.

The price however, is crazy.  I think $5k would b fine though if he could get it.

Uh..sure but 1ghz PCs run most games just fine doesnt mean I want that for a cab that cost me $8000 :(
(Just a thought)

Madman

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #48 on: July 14, 2004, 01:08:13 am »
He stole my name!!!!!! I built the same box for around 1800.00!!!
8K is NUTZ!!!!!!
« Last Edit: July 14, 2004, 01:09:19 am by Madman »

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #49 on: July 14, 2004, 01:45:31 am »
He stole my name!!!!!! I built the same box for around 1800.00!!!
8K is NUTZ!!!!!!

Where is the marquee and side art?

Didn't mean to come off as offensive earlier.  I was just trying to put two and two together.  

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #50 on: July 14, 2004, 08:31:26 am »
I'd pay $8k for it if I had lots of disposable income and wasn't a frequenter of these boards.  Think of all the things we do that we take for granted, but at one time required SERIOUS investment of time for research:

- How to make ACT LABS gun work
- Where to find a bloody complete set of ROMS
- CLRMAME
- How to interface controls with a PC
- How to install and configure a frontend
- How to use a router
- How to mount monitor glass
- How to make the whole lot turn on with one button

The list goes on and on.  Some people, who have the right knowledge and skills, build their own house and save tens of thousands of dollars.  But the vast majority just find one that's already built, because they have neither the time nor inclination to learn how to do it on their own.

Sure, knowing what I know, I would never pay $8k for this thing, but I already know all about frontends and ROMS and so on.  Many people who have $8k to drop on a toy like this would much rather depart with the money than the time it would take them to figure it all out on their own.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #51 on: July 14, 2004, 08:45:29 am »
You shouldn't compare the time and effort spent on a prototype with the price for the actual product. You don't pay a couple of million dollars (if not billion) for a car either.

Sure it will take some investment to build a cab at first, but surely these people built a cab before already. Building a second cab based on an existing design takes hardly any time and if you do this routinely you can have all the woodworkign done rather cheap. Putting a cab together won't take more than a day or two.

If you order a custom built cab (build to your specifications) then maybe $4000 would be realistic, but if it's a "mass" produced cab by someone who probably runs a "company" from his basement (read no investments in office and such) they should be able to sel a simple cab like this for $3000 and still make a huge profit.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #52 on: July 14, 2004, 10:53:37 am »
You shouldn't compare the time and effort spent on a prototype with the price for the actual product. You don't pay a couple of million dollars (if not billion) for a car either.

Sure it will take some investment to build a cab at first, but surely these people built a cab before already. Building a second cab based on an existing design takes hardly any time and if you do this routinely you can have all the woodworkign done rather cheap. Putting a cab together won't take more than a day or two.

If you order a custom built cab (build to your specifications) then maybe $4000 would be realistic, but if it's a "mass" produced cab by someone who probably runs a "company" from his basement (read no investments in office and such) they should be able to sel a simple cab like this for $3000 and still make a huge profit.

I really have to respectfully disagree with a lot of this.  

I am unaware of any business  that doesn't price it's R&D into its product prices.  I am sure that at least a thousand dollars of a $50K SUV is recovering R&D.  And that is selling millions of cars.  

I am starting a small business part-time and expect to sell 5-10 custom ordered cabs per year next year.    I built my first project cab and it probably took 80 hours.  In addition The original time spent reseaching on the 'net was easily 50 hours.

As far as time spent building a new cab, I am building another, new design that I expect to take about 40 hours.  The cabs after that will probably take about 35, but without a factory I will not get much more productive than that.   Putting togeter a cab in a day or two is a fantasy.  You could assemble the cab 'box'  itself in that time, but there is no way you could build a good qualtiy cab start to finish in that time.  If you want a sellable-quality end product you need to take time to do it right.  You also need to spend 7-10 hours on ordering parts frorm at least five vendors, a few trips to Home Depot, and going to the glass shop.

My cabs will be somewhat differentiated from others.  They will include almost all of the ROMs from StarRoms, licensed to the buyer's name.  It will be delivered to the buyer's home if local, and will have text on the Marquee that is customizeable.  I will probably include a few hundered tokens with the mechs adjusted for them.  I will be available to consult on the installation of other softeware or ROMs that the buyer might be able to legally obtain.  

I live in a fairly affluent area {edit: on the wrong side of town, however :)} and there are some of my neighbors wouldn't flinch at paying $4-5K for this total package.  They have no idea about ebay, and even if they did would probably pay more not to have to deal with the risk and inconvenience of ebay.  When they look at a Galaga/Pac reuinon for $3k at Brookstone compared to mine that plays 80 games out tof the box and is capable of 4000 more, it isn't a stretch at that price.

And "Huge Profit" is a relative term.  If one make a thousand dollars off of a $3000 cab, after taxes one would have netted a lot less.   Personally I highly value my spare time because that is the time I spend with my family.    The 40+ hours I didn't spend with my wife and kids is worth at least as much as the after-tax profit  under a $3000 pricing structure.

So in a nutshell,  If the marketplace where I live will support my pricing, I will make money.  If it does not, I can build cabs with my stocks of materials and sell the cabs for at least as much as I paid for the parts and get out of the business without a loss.

It's all about to whom and where you are marketing.  You notice I am not marketing here or on Ebay. I am well aware that those probably are not doable for me.

But I still say $8k is a stretch by any measure.


« Last Edit: July 14, 2004, 11:11:54 am by Santoro »

FractalWalk

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #53 on: July 14, 2004, 10:56:50 am »
You shouldn't compare the time and effort spent on a prototype with the price for the actual product.

He wasn't comparing cost to prototype but rather the inherent value to the customer. What do the raw parts of a car cost? Certainly you could make one yourself for way less than what it is sold for. But that would require specific knowledge, time and investment that most people would rather not mess with.  He's saying a rational person who has no knowledge may think $8k a fair price. Much like some people think $50k for a car is a rational price.



but if it's a "mass" produced cab by someone who probably runs a "company" from his basement (read no investments in office and such) they should be able to sel a simple cab like this for $3000 and still make a huge profit.

I doubt it.  There has been two estimates so far in the $2k range for parts and that doesn't include labor or investment in tools.  When adding in all the real costs (time, investment etc.) I bet $3k would barely cover it. My current cab will easily cost me more than $3k if I factor in all the relevant costs.

Now if it is an assembly line that is cranking out hundreds of these things a year then that is another story. You certainly could do this for under $3k profitably but there would have to be a large demand to support that business model.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #54 on: July 14, 2004, 06:58:13 pm »
I guess I wasn't clear. I meant that the $8000 would be the cost for an initial cab and all extra design invstments needed to start up a production line. So $8000 woul dbe the cost of a prototype (and something extra). You might say that is a fair price since that would be what it would cost a person to build the same cab (with an hourly rate for a professional builder factored in). But then several millions of dollars would be a reasonable price for a car ...

Of course you spread the R&D costs over the cabs you sell, but seriously, these builders are not a company. They are just copying a cab they built themselves (or even from someone elses plans). So really what is the cost of R&D? Anyway, you don't spread the R&D over one cab.

Those 2K estimates were made up from kits. You can build a cab for $1000 worth of parts easily. Don't say it's not so, since it sure can. Of course you need to calculate the hours of work also. If you are spending more than 20 hours building a cab then you shouldn't be building that cab yourself. Assuming you have the plans ready and you've built one before (or you are using a kit) you don't tell me it takes more than that. So lets take a wild guess and go for $75 per hour. That's $1500. Add a bit for "R&D" say $500 and it all adds up to $3000 with a seriously healthy margin of $2000. BTW the income taxes are over the margin and not over the gross value and the VAT (if you pay that at all) is minor compared to the whole value.

Of course you could buy much more expensive parts (or change to using complete kits so you don't need the tools and you even spent less time). Lets say we spend an extra $1000. Then things add up to $4000. Sure if you add extra service and customizing you might go up to $5000. But that's really assuming you can find enough people who don't care to pay too much.

Of course if people are prepared to pay too much then that is their problem, but that doesn't mean that the price is right.
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FractalWalk

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #55 on: July 14, 2004, 08:50:31 pm »
patrickl;

As far as a hobbiest just a making a cab, you may be right about "fair prices" but in the terms of an ongoing business, I think you are off the mark.


If you are spending more than 20 hours building a cab then you shouldn't be building that cab yourself. Assuming you have the plans ready and you've built one before (or you are using a kit) you don't tell me it takes more than that.

I completely disagree with this statement. I don't believe for a second that you can build a professional cab ready for sale from scratch in 20 hours. I would guess double that would be closer to the mark.



Add a bit for "R&D" say $500 and it all adds up to $3000 with a seriously healthy margin of $2000.

A 40% margin is not "seriously healthy", but it is in the ballpark of what one would expect in a somewhat mature competitive market.

Keep in mind a business has to account for risks that the customer does not bear, such as damaged inventory, bad debt, litigation costs, insurance etc. That's what the margin is there for. If you don't price it then you (instead of the customer) will ultimately pay for it.

I'll assume that your $500 R&D cost is one cab's portion of all allocated capital expense (tools, replacement equipment, repairs, opportunity cost of cash into the business etc.) But if you are wrong about labor and it truly is 40 hours then we are talking about a $4,500 "cost" and the story dramatically changes.

I don't know what the right answer is but there is some serious sensitivity (i.e. risk) in the numbers that I think you are ignoring.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2004, 09:25:00 pm »
If you think about it as a business then costs and manufacturing time will actually drop. I'm pretty sure if you do several cabs a month you can easily get it below 20 hours per cab. You will be doing the same thing over and over. You could also get the cab manufactured at a woodshop or you could hire kids for the simpler work (they might take longer but they cost less).

It's fun thinking about this. Makes me wanna set up my own cab plant ;) Unfortunately (I fear) people over here won't pay more than $2000 for a cab.

Anyway, there actually are plenty complete cabs sold in the $3000 to $4000 price range. Of course they don't offer illegal options, but apparently it can be done.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #57 on: July 15, 2004, 12:43:42 am »

I'm amazed you think $75 is a reasonable price for a days work of a carpenter. How would you feel if you were paid $75 a day? I'm afraid $75 is more like the hourly rate for a carpenter.

Carpenters build houses, cabinetmakers build cabinets. ;)

$75 an hour isn't out of line for a well equipped cabinet shop. Beyond the basics, (rent, utilities,ect.) most shops have a fortune tied up in equipment. You'd likely get a much better price per unit if your quote was for several cabinets, as this is where those big expensive tools they have really shine. But one cabinet means essentially custom work and they have to price accordingly.

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2004, 12:14:50 am »
Come on guys....

I have seen quite a few threads about this overcharging cab thingy....

If the guy building the cab (ugly or not) is using all legal parts....
no stolen arts.... and (at least state that) no roms included...

if they want to charge $3,345,789 for the cab.... why not ??...

maybe 1 day.... someone actually dumb enough to buy it ??...

you might think they shouldn't charge $2000 for labor...
but I have seen consultants in companies that charge $250 per hour
and they're playing online games !!!.... (and with overtime and they
sit there like 10 hr / day !!!)

well.... but if they're using stealing someone's artwork... design...
copyrighted stuffs... frontend... without properly acknowledging them... or profit sharing them....

and or if the seller is mis-informing the buyer with wrong / misleading facts... or hidden fees... then its a different story....

Another Brilliant mind ruined by education....  :p

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #59 on: July 25, 2004, 12:22:59 pm »
He stole my name!!!!!! I built the same box for around 1800.00!!!
8K is NUTZ!!!!!!


I think alot of people use the name "Time Machine" for their cabbys...

Example..  http://williamsongraphics.com/mame/cab-pix/pic24.html
« Last Edit: July 25, 2004, 12:23:32 pm by Postalp »

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #60 on: July 25, 2004, 05:29:54 pm »
Whoa, notice the name? You guys are mostly Mamers, so you wouldn't recognize the name Andrew Culpovich, but I certainly do.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Andrew+Culpovich&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&scoring=d

Big time scammer, and one of the least respected name in the arcade world.
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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2004, 05:59:39 pm »
Whoa, notice the name? You guys are mostly Mamers, so you wouldn't recognize the name Andrew Culpovich, but I certainly do.

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Andrew+Culpovich&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&scoring=d

Big time scammer, and one of the least respected name in the arcade world.

I was just about to post the same thing when I saw Andrew Culpovich's name. You'll never get the machine if purchased, big time scammer.

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Re:Check out this almost $8000 ultimate II system
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2004, 09:18:52 pm »
99% of the population has never hear of MAME nor have they ever heard of people building arcade cabinets from scratch. As with most products, they also have no idea how relatively inexpensive it is to build one.

If I had never heard of MAME I would think that this system was a steal for $8000.00 (considering it was a legit offer).

Think about it, a new released arcade game/cabinet probably costs around $6000.00. A refurbished Asteroids or Pacman game costs around $1500.00 and you only get ONE game, that's it.

To be able to purchase a system that plays 8000 original arcade games as well as all the home console games that he is including is cheap considering how much it would cost to purchase these games individually.  

The problem with the price is that not very many people have $8000.00 laying around to purchase a toy like this.
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