Any info on Act Labs Guns release??

[Superdave]

Just wanting to see if anyone has heard if the Guns are really going to release soon or if they have been pushed back again. Any particular date of release? I also saw somewhere that if we had pre-ordered that those were wiped out and we had to order again.Is that true?Just looking for any info I can find. Mabye since the Act Labs guys were so kind to pump up their product here, that they will at least jump on here to give us an update.

[JustMichael]

The last time I heard was mid-August but who really knows.  To be honest a company that announces a product release date and then doesn't deliver risks alienating their customers.

I myself won't be buying one of the guns until they have ones that work with 2 players.  I like gun games but I also like to play them with friends even more.

[Sasquatch!]

I myself won't be buying one of the guns until they have ones that work with 2 players.  I like gun games but I also like to play them with friends even more.

It won't work with two players??  UGH.  

[Lilwolf]

Even if they could get them to work with two guns, mame on XP will not be able to work since it's based on a mouse motion, not a joystick.

The old version (which I have) were joystick based, but they were VERY hard to write for....  And they kinda sucked even when they did have custom drivers written for it.

[Howard_Casto]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Back in the original console wars act-labs had a 50/50 track record for their controllers.  Half of the time they would rock and half the time they turned out to be a flaming pile.  Usually when they made excuses about releases and kept changing things it turned out to be the latter.  Personally I won't buy one of the guns anyway... they are mouse controllers which shows thier total disregard to make a proper device.   (All they would have to do would be to flash instant joystick frequenceis and a fire command for a joystick mode.)  They are vga only, and let's face it, no one wants to play a shooter on their puny computer monitor.  And they are one player only, mainly because they went about with the wrong approach.... with creative driver writing they could have gotten the same mouse-like accuracy but as a joystick.  They could have even added a mouse emulation mode if they were worried about compatability.  

[Lilwolf]

Before you critisize the mouse issue.

the last ones were joysticks....

and the trouble is they required a driver to be added into each game.... and nobody did it.

They even game a free gun to the guy who owns the mame32 code... and he added basic support, but so basic it didn't work with any game.


I ordered one assuming that I might do the money back stuff... I had to try....

I hope they get a 2 gun system working even if it's just win98....

[Superdave]

Thanks for the feedback. This was not intended to start a discussion over the merits of Act-Labs as a company, just looking for info on the impending release of the Gun. I don't care if it is 1 or 2 players, Without it, gun games would be 0 players. Do you guys think a normal mouse or trackball is realistic?? I don't! Just wanting info on the release and didn't get any through other channels

[Howard_Casto]

Before you critisize the mouse issue.

the last ones were joysticks....

and the trouble is they required a driver to be added into each game.... and nobody did it.

They even game a free gun to the guy who owns the mame32 code... and he added basic support, but so basic it didn't work with any game.


I ordered one assuming that I might do the money back stuff... I had to try....

I hope they get a 2 gun system working even if it's just win98....

I know that's my problem with it... the orignal must have been even more botched than the new one.  You shouldn't need special drivers.  When you fire, it should send axis feedback like a normal joystick and also press the button 1
Why would you need special drivers for that?  Screen position is absolute and so is joystick analog values.  

[SNAAAKE]

little bit off topic..but the USB converters might work..anyone tried..i am willing to waste $20 to try...besides i got some psx gun games..so not total waste of money in case it wont work with mame...anyone has any clue on why it wont work or why it might work?i will post as soon as i get psx gun and try with converter

[u_rebelscum]

I know that's my problem with it... the orignal must have been even more botched than the new one.  You shouldn't need special drivers.  When you fire, it should send axis feedback like a normal joystick and also press the button 1
Why would you need special drivers for that?  Screen position is absolute and so is joystick analog values.

The problem was the (non-working) games where not absolute position, but relative.  I.E. push the joystick left, the cursor moved left, push farther left, cursor moved faster.  The drivers for the games were so the games could read absolute instead of relative

[Lilwolf]

Even if it was relative/absolute problem.

this should have been a 5 second fix from actlabs!   Oh, I sent a 5,10 last time.. the next is 40, 60... so lets send a (40-5, 60-10)

Then you have to have a way to center it....  and the driver could also do that pretty easy (hold space and shoot at the center of the screen)

[JustMichael]

This is probably not true but here it is anyway.  Last night I had a dream and in the dream the guns finally came out November 3rd.  I know a lot of people are looking forward to these coming out so I hope I am wrong.

[Lilwolf]

hows the stock market going to be in Nov?  

And will Rave Racer get dumped by guru first?

I also was wondering if bell bottoms will still be in style or will it move over to summer colors with pleats?

[u_rebelscum]

this should have been a 5 second fix from actlabs!   Oh, I sent a 5,10 last time.. the next is 40, 60... so lets send a (40-5, 60-10)

Then you have to have a way to center it....  and the driver could also do that pretty easy (hold space and shoot at the center of the screen)

That would be great, except for:

a) you are thinking in mouse absolute & relative terms.  Games usually read joystick relative data different than mice.  Like I said, "push the joystick left, the cursor moved left, push farther left, cursor moved faster".  It was not "move joystick all the way down (delta = MAX), cursor jumped to the bottom".  The game driver would be still needed so the game treated the relative joystick input data like a mouse input.

b) high screen resolutions where delta is too high for game. example: game played at 1600x1200 while game might have assumed max input = 256 (8 bits).  Other games re-set the joystick "range" to there own expections.  Game driver might fix this.

c) games that put there own accellerations on the input relative data (like mame).  Mame added new read lightgun data.  A game driver might fix this.

d) the few games that did do absolute wouldn't anymore (ya ya, so add a switch in the driver between absolute & relative).

The biggest problem would be a), which still would need a game driver.

[Howard_Casto]

this should have been a 5 second fix from actlabs!   Oh, I sent a 5,10 last time.. the next is 40, 60... so lets send a (40-5, 60-10)

Then you have to have a way to center it....  and the driver could also do that pretty easy (hold space and shoot at the center of the screen)

That would be great, except for:

a) you are thinking in mouse absolute & relative terms.  Games usually read joystick relative data different than mice.  Like I said, "push the joystick left, the cursor moved left, push farther left, cursor moved faster".  It was not "move joystick all the way down (delta = MAX), cursor jumped to the bottom".  The game driver would be still needed so the game treated the relative joystick input data like a mouse input.

b) high screen resolutions where delta is too high for game. example: game played at 1600x1200 while game might have assumed max input = 256 (8 bits).  Other games re-set the joystick "range" to there own expections.  Game driver might fix this.

c) games that put there own accellerations on the input relative data (like mame).  Mame added new read lightgun data.  A game driver might fix this.

d) the few games that did do absolute wouldn't anymore (ya ya, so add a switch in the driver between absolute & relative).

The biggest problem would be a), which still would need a game driver.

I'm sure you know more about this than I do but it seems like every single thing you brought up could be calculated by a calibration file for each game.  Nothing fancy either, just something that can determine the bit depth, resolution and joysticks range of motion, while within the game.  All of this could be done via an external program.  A simple call of get system metrics could get most of the data, and hopefully any game you would want to use a lightgun on would have some kind of built in calibraiton program, of which the program could monitor.  

As for relative vs absolute that is a rather silly argument.  Once the intended postion of the gun is calculated a simple call to SetMousePos could be used for 95% of the mouse-based shooters out there.  No drivers necessary...  Usually when a shooter uses mouse input it just takes the mouse values.... no need to wrangle the mouse or anything as shooters are played full screen.  I do realize that mame doesn't use this method, but fromwhat i understand the new lightgun driver that was added uses a very similar method, so it's the same difference.

And I know what your thinking... "What about two player support?"  Well any pc game that uses the mouse for input obviously is a 1-player game and thus this wouldn't be an issue.  Mame isn't, but since all original arcade hardware used absolute values for the light gun it should be very easy to make a driver to plug in as an input device and gontrol both guns.  All that would be needed would be a reading of the analog value sent by the gun compared to the screen size and then positon the gun accordingly.  I'm not saying it would be a piece of cake, but it wouldn't be any harder than adding the light gun support they have now.  

[u_rebelscum]

I'm sure you know more about this than I do but it seems like every single thing you brought up could be calculated by a calibration file for each game.  Nothing fancy either, just something that can determine the bit depth, resolution and joysticks range of motion, while within the game.  All of this could be done via an external program.  A simple call of get system metrics could get most of the data, and hopefully any game you would want to use a lightgun on would have some kind of built in calibraiton program, of which the program could monitor.

Looks like you're talking about adding a "feature" to each game so it can use the lightguns correctly...?  (I thought this exact thing you talk about is part of what the added game driver did inside the game.)  Or an external prog monitoring something in a running game?

As for relative vs absolute that is a rather silly argument.  Once the intended postion of the gun is calculated a simple call to SetMousePos could be used for 95% of the mouse-based shooters out there.  No drivers necessary...  Usually when a shooter uses mouse input it just takes the mouse values.... no need to wrangle the mouse or anything as shooters are played full screen.  I do realize that mame doesn't use this method, but fromwhat i understand the new lightgun driver that was added uses a very similar method, so it's the same difference.

Yes relative vs absolute is not very important for mice.  The original guns where joystick, and relative vs absolute makes more of a difference with joys.  And since different games were setup for one way or the other, most shooting games one way, and the old guns needed the other, the guns "didn't work".

And I know what your thinking... "What about two player support?"  Well any pc game that uses the mouse for input obviously is a 1-player game and thus this wouldn't be an issue.  Mame isn't, but since all original arcade hardware used absolute values for the light gun it should be very easy to make a driver to plug in as an input device and gontrol both guns.

Hold on, you are talking about a joy --> mouse external program?  

I was talking about the original lightguns that used joystick data type and why they needed special drivers for each to work, even though the game could do normal joysticks.

If they used a joy to mouse utility (that calibrated for different resolutions), I guess it would work on all games that the new lightgun will work on.  But why do a joystick lightgun if it's just going to be translated to mouse data?  You would have the same calibration problems the originals had, the same limit of one mouse (sorry, lightgun) as the new, plus (as with any translator prog) the joy to mouse data utility time/bugs/dataloss overhead....

And, yes, "what about two players?"  Don't worry, I asked the same to M$, and your and their answer make sense in most cases (mame not being one of them).

Are there any other PC shooting games that were for two players? (besides mame)  Know it's been asked before, but I'd like to know numbers to back or disprove your "any pc game that uses the mouse for input obviously is a 1-player game" statement, howard.

All that would be needed would be a reading of the analog value sent by the gun compared to the screen size and then positon the [crosshairs] accordingly.  I'm not saying it would be a piece of cake, but it wouldn't be any harder than adding the light gun support they have now.

Well, yes it would be pretty easy if the crosshairs were positioned like a mouse cursor with mouse data.  (That's what the new gun's do.)  

And it would be really easy with joystick data if the games could position the crosshairs from absolute joystick data (like OpWolf in the arcades), but that ment adding those drivers to the PC games ('cause the PC game writers thought "all joysticks will control the crosshairs like a joymouse would").  

But translating absolute joy data to either rel or ab mouse data by an outside the game utility/driver that will work for all games, ehh, I guess it would work, but I don't think it would improve the old gun's other problems (accuracy being the biggest compant, FWIH).


BTW, I am just defending why actlabs didn't get the old joystick guns to work on most games, not that they couldn't use your methods.  
Most are just my point of view, but to me, unless I got something really wrong, actlabs did a lot toward making their old guns work (maybe not as much as they could, but close), but most games and other joystick type hardware are different from the old lightguns that the guns needed to be handled differently.

hmm... I might be digging myself a hole here, but I might be able, if my take on what the drivers did, to add support for the old lightguns to Analog+.  
Anyone want me to give this a try?  Hands?
I need an old gun and some spare time....  Alright here's my shovel, I'll research the old guns and drivers and get back to you guys on this.  Anyone can give me links or other info?  

[Howard_Casto]

I can't continue this thread with you rebel because you aren't understanding what lilwolf and myself are proposing.  I can tell by your last response that you don't know what I mean.  

Sorry perhaps you'll get it if you read it over again.  

As for act-labs I genuinely think they meant well, but they went about making these guns totally the wrong way... They should show up as joysticks, not mice... period, no exceptions, no excuses.  I know they had problems with their pervious guns, but they wouldn't have ahd a single problem if they would have went about it in a manner similar to what I suggested before.  

Anyway, I'm out.. this thread has been fun but we are going in circles.

[u_rebelscum]

I can't continue this thread with you rebel because you aren't understanding what lilwolf and myself are proposing.  I can tell by your last response that you don't know what I mean.  

Sorry perhaps you'll get it if you read it over again.

Looks like we went different ways between answers #13 & #14.  Rereading, I wasn't very clear in my answer in #13 that I was still talking about joystick guns (the point of the our OT, right?) not mouse guns nor mouse-data-type I was trying to differentiate the joy gun from, but didn't do a good job.  Which may have led #14, seems to me at least, addressing mouse guns & mouse problems.  Which is partially why I didn't understand #14 well, and thus my answer unclear, I guess.

But I still don't see what some of your points are: there are parts where, it seams to me, you are freely interchanging 5 different things: joystick data, mouse data, cursor position, absolute data, and relative data, (and each's related stuff) when they are different.  Sometimes they can be interchanged, but not in some of the cases that you do.  This is another reason I don't understand parts of answer #14.

As for act-labs I genuinely think they meant well, but they went about making these guns totally the wrong way... They should show up as joysticks, not mice... period, no exceptions, no excuses.  I know they had problems with their pervious guns, but they wouldn't have ahd a single problem if they would have went about it in a manner similar to what I suggested before.

I agree the new gun should also have been joysticks.
But I disagree greatly about problems.  Big Problems will occur (gun won't work) with those games not set up correctly (most of them);  and this problem is rooted to one of your assumptions being incorrect:

Why would you need special drivers for that?  Screen position is absolute and so is joystick analog values.

Your hidden (& incorrect) assumption: shooting games directly translate the joystick absolute data to absolute screen position of crosshairs/cursor.

Instead AFAIK, most PC shooting games take a joystick's absolute data (a range from -128 to 128, for example), but treat it as if it was relative data:  For example moving the crosshairs, @ 30 times a second, (-24,24) pixels relative to last location with an input of (-120,120) from a joystick, for as long as the joystick is held at (-120,120).  
This quick and cheap way was used by the developers so the mouse and joystick inputs could be treated basically the same (as relative data).  With a cursor (the crosshairs), it was easy for the designers to treat it like a normal mouse cursor, and since the crosshairs was being treated just like a mouse, they thought they should treat the joystick data like a joymouse (take absolute and treat like relative).  So these games need to be "patched", added a "driver", call it whatever, but reprogrammed so that your hidden assumption is true, and only then can you say there won't be any problems.

Of course I could be wrong about "most shooting games treated joysticks like joymice", and then rest of my arguement would go up in flames, but I haven't found anything against it, and a bunch for it. (both here and elsewhere).  I don't see any of your suggestions addressing this problem, although some come close.

I thought I got most of this through my earlier posts, but now I guess I didn't.  And if this is not addressing what you were talking about anyway, I'm sorry, I am missing almost everything what you said.

Anyway, I'm out.. this thread has been fun but we are going in circles.

Ya, my poor writing part of the reason.  Again, sorry about that.


BTW, do you know what the actlab old lightgun game "drivers" actually did?  I'm going on the little I know of the guns (third and forth hand), so I know I'm missing something here, wondering if someone could backup/disprove/inlighten me on the subject.