best 4-way, 8-way joysticks

[Nefesis]

which joysticks are the best for either 4-way, 8-way, or 4-8-way switchable?

[Apollo]

LMAO!

[jdfriesen]

4/8 way switchable you've got to seriously consider the T-Stik Plus:
http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html

[Nefesis]

i heard that for the t-stick plus, the ball-tops were a bit short. are the bat-shaped ones normal size? also, aren't the t-sticks plus noisy?

[jdfriesen]

The T-Stiks are microswitch based, so yes, they do make noise.  Also, you are correct that they are a bit shorter than the standard Happ style.

[Kremmit]

For 4-way sticks you've got:  

Original Ms. Pac stick (leaf switch, shorter throw, non-standard cp mounting, no longer manufactured)

Wico 4-way ..not 4/8 way (leaf switch, longer throw, standard mounting, no longer manufactured)

Ms. Pac / Galaga reunion (micro switch, longer throw, standard mounting, currently sold by Happs)

Ms. Pac replacement (micro switch, shorter throw, non-standard cp mounting, currently sold by Happs)


Which is better?  It depends on what you need.  

First, you  have to decide if you want the short throw or the long throw, and if you want short, is it worth the extra work mounting the thing?

Second, have to decide if you mind clicking. If you don't, then the micro-switch sticks are an option, and they're sure easier to get, since you can just hit http://www.happcontrols.com and order 'em up.  

If you want non-clicking leaf switches, which are what you found in almost all 4-way games back when they still made 4-way games, then you've gotta work harder to get 'em. (possible sources: ebay, BYOAC buy/sell/trade forum, various net vendors, pulls from scrapped cabinets, local operators)  They're not really that tough to find if it's what you want.  

Personally, I won't use microswitch sticks.  I'm too much of an old fuddy-duddy to convert (unless I'm playing old Nintendo titles.  I did pick up some Vs. cab sticks for those  )  As for the stick throw, I don't seem to care.  Back in the day, I played on both types so much that they both feel natural to me, so it just doesn't matter.

Just a quick bit about 8-way sticks- you've got the same considerations listed above, but then add in Optical Switched sticks (Haps Perfect 360), Mechanical Rotary (Ikari), Optical Rotary (Blitz), Right/Left Rotary (Xybots)... and the list goes on; there are lots of types of 8-way sticks.  Do you want ball or bat handles?  Do you want a trigger?  A thumb button on top?  Do you want these extra functions?  And do you wan't 'em in you primary sticks, or as separate options?  Figure out which features you want and then you can narrow down your list.

Good luck!

[NoOne=NBA=]

Wicos,
Wicos,
And Wicos in swappable or modular panels.

[Nefesis]

i don't mind thge clicking, and don't really care about thje throw. i never grew up around arcades, so most things will feel natural to me.

[Sylentwulf]

8-way fighting games, the Super seems to be the best.
4-way - I base my joystick comparisons on how well it does diagonals I don't like leaf joys, so I bought the ultimate 4 way myself.

[Kremmit]

i don't mind thge clicking, and don't really care about thje throw. i never grew up around arcades, so most things will feel natural to me.

Buy a T-Stick plus then.  They're clicky, and definately have a different feel from the sticks in old cabs, both of which throw me off.  But since those things don't matter to you, The T-stick is perfect, since you can get 8-way and true 4-way action in one stick.  They're at least as well made as the Happs, probably better.  BYOAC guru KevSteele has a really good review of the T-Stick plus here:
http://retroblast.com/reviews/joysticks/ultimarc_tstik.html

Order 'em here:
http://www.ultimarc.com/controls.html

[Nefesis]

ok. will get the t-sticks plus. probably bat handles. i'd had already read the review which is why i thought they were clicky. what color do you thiunk looks best with a stained wood cp?

[independentthread]

Not to sound like a @#$%@#$%@ but...HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THE CLICK!?  Arcades were built on the click!!!  The click is classic!!!  That's the whole reason I'm getting into this, I'm sick of the new school crap with no clicks!!!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant, already in progress.

[Nefesis]

thought the aracades had leaf joysticks which don't have as audible a click?

[JoeB]

Depends when you went to the arcades..

if you went in the early to mid 80's, then there were no clicks.

if you went from the late 80's to today, then there were a lot of clicks.

I went mostly in the mid 90's, while in University, and there were a LOT of clicks.  

[Magnet_Eye]

CLICK THIS!

[Spaced Invader]

Not to sound like a @#$%@#$%@ but...HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THE CLICK!?  Arcades were built on the click!!!  The click is classic!!!  That's the whole reason I'm getting into this, I'm sick of the new school crap with no clicks!!!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant, already in progress.

You're too young to know the click is evil...  

[Minwah]

I actually like the click...you *know* when the contact has been made.  Not sure why I like that but I do

I was going to arcades in the mid-80's on, so I recall quite a lot of clicking going on at that time...

[Gameboy.au]

Not to sound like a @#$%@#$%@ but...HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THE CLICK!?  Arcades were built on the click!!!  The click is classic!!!  That's the whole reason I'm getting into this, I'm sick of the new school crap with no clicks!!!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant, already in progress.

  It's funny you konw, as the game that really got me into brawl games, Final Fight, had the loudest clicks on a joystick in the cabinet I played.....

[megashock5]

What about the OmniStick Prodigy?

Anyone use it? I'm still trying to decide between this and the T-Stik Plus.

Please help! Any opinions are greatly appreciated!

[Nefesis]

where can you buy the omnistick prodigy?

[megashock5]

www.groovygamegear.com

It looks pretty hot. 4-8way switchable like the T-Stik plus, but it's a switch on the top instead of the lift-turn method.

they also make a competitor to the iPac called the KeyWhiz

[Tiger-Heli]

What about the OmniStick Prodigy?

Anyone use it? I'm still trying to decide between this and the T-Stik Plus.

Please help! Any opinions are greatly appreciated!

I think I posted this somewhere else.

General comparisions - T-stick has shorter throw than the Prodigy's already short throw.  I think T-Stick has greater spring pressure.  T-Stick has louder clicks.  I think T-Stick uses lever actuator microswitches, and I'm sure Prodigy uses standard (Tab) microswitches.

Other considerations - T-stick appears like any other joystick on the panel (nothing showing above the panel).  Prodigy has a lever to switch positions, which means you can tell just by looking whether the stick is in 4 or 8 way mode.  Prodigy requires a 5-inch square for clearance for the mounting plate.  Unique Prodigy handle combines the features of ball-top and bat top sticks, but the sticks are also offered in ball-top versions.

[NoOne=NBA=]

Not to sound like a @#$%@#$%@ but...HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THE CLICK!?  Arcades were built on the click!!!  The click is classic!!!  That's the whole reason I'm getting into this, I'm sick of the new school crap with no clicks!!!

We now return you to your regularly scheduled rant, already in progress.

Have you ever heard of PacMan?
Ms. Pacman?
Defender?
Robotron?
Joust?
Tron?
How about pretty much any game that came out before 1985, and wasn't made by Nintendo?

The arcades were BUILT on GOOD gameplay, and leafswitches.

They DIED on games that clicked!

[JoeB]

The click had nothing to do with the death the of arcades...

Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft were the biggest cause.

[RayB]

Does anyone know if you can easily replace the microswitches on the T-Stik with leafswitches? That would be the best of both worlds.

[Stingray]

What about the OmniStick Prodigy?

Anyone use it? I'm still trying to decide between this and the T-Stik Plus.

Please help! Any opinions are greatly appreciated!

I've got a prodigy and I love it. Takes less than a second to switch from 8 way to 4 way. Has a nice short throw which I like. It has microswitches, but they're not terribly loud. It's a great joystick IMO.

-S

[ChadTower]

Seeing as how you can game until you die with either stick, it looks pretty win-win to me whichever you order.  Flip a coin and order it up.

[Paul Olson]

The T-stick plus is excellent for 4/8 way switching, but I don't like the feel with the switches that come with it.  I replaced them with Cherrys, and it is fantastic!!!

I still can't get friends to use it on fighters though, they like the Happ Competions.  


Paul  

[Knievel]

I vote for the OmniStick's. I've got 3 in my panel, 1 being a dedicated 4-way. The 4-way is AMAZING for PAC games, the short throw gives you incredible control with a ball-top feel.  
I tried switching it with an NOS Wico 4-way leaf and it just didn't compare, it went back in the box.
Never tried the Prodigy but if you're short on CP space it looks like a good option. It's actually cheaper to buy 2 regular Omni's though and set one for 8-way and one for 4-way if you've got the room.

[jcoleman]

Paul,

Did you use regular Cherry switches, or did you get the type with the actuators?  I've got extra standard Cherry switches begging to go on my t-stik plus, but don't want to put them on there to find that they don't hit just right on the diagonals over time.

Thanks

Coleman

[Paul Olson]

Coleman,

They have the actuators.  I took them from another joystick I had laying around.  I'm not sure where to buy them, but I would like to have more on hand.  It can't hurt to try the standard switches though, if they don't work well, it's only 4 screws to change back.

It is definately worth going with Cherrys, it feels like a completely different stick.  It still has the short throw, but it feels looser and quicker.  

Paul

[NoOne=NBA=]

Bob Roberts has the Cherry switches with the actuators on them.
I think they are $12.50 for 10 of them, IIRC.

[Darkstalker]

Won't the leaf style switches need adjustment every so often?  An alignment change every 400 Pacman games or 25 Karate Champs, whichever comes first?

[NoOne=NBA=]

25 games is WAY under.
They would never have used them in the arcades if that were the case.

I'd guess, with an average amount of play, they shouldn't need adjustment more than once or twice a year on a home cabinet, if that.

[independentthread]

I completely lost track of this thread, beings how my internet connection has been %#$& for the past month, and I've been working on my cab...But as far as all of you people that decided to bash me about the click...

1. "too young to remember..."
Actually I remember the little cone shaped buttons used for player start on Centipede that had their own very distinct clicking sound.
2. "leaf switch joysticks don't click..."
So in other words, what you're trying to say is that the old games didn't have buttons?  Buttons never click, do they!?
3. "Have you ever heard pf Pacman?  Ms. Pacman?"
A better question is how you never noticed the fact that most of the people who used to play Pacman and Ms. Pacman used to slam the joysticks in each direction so fast that, besides almost breaking the ball of in their hand, essentially made a clicking sound.

So to anyone who decided to jump me for my comment, you can click THAT.  

[Grauwulf]

Well I'm not *suffering* for space on my CP, but I think I'm going to use the Ultimate T-Stick for my panel. I looked at the Omni-stick Prodigy, it's a neat design, but I don;t like the idea of anything extra protruding from the panel. Also you have to surface mount it which IMHO will distract from the look of the panel.

My question is, are there any multiplayer games that use 2 4-way sticks?

[NoOne=NBA=]

Karate Champ uses 4 of them, and Assault uses EDIT: 2 as well (trigger sticks).

Those are the only ones I know of that you really CAN'T use 8-ways on, and have them work properly.

If you use 8-ways on either game, you will hit HUGE dead spots where the controls just don't send any data--bringing your player to a quick halt until you get back where you would be with a 4-way.

[NoOne=NBA=]

1. "too young to remember..."
Actually I remember the little cone shaped buttons used for player start on Centipede that had their own very distinct clicking sound.

You get 1 click per game.
The FIRE button was a leaf button, and didn't click.

2. "leaf switch joysticks don't click..."
So in other words, what you're trying to say is that the old games didn't have buttons?  Buttons never click, do they!?

The buttons on CLASSIC (old-school) games did NOT click in and of themselves--they were leaf switch buttons.
Therefore the quest for non-clicking controls is not a "new-school" thing that should be put down as non-classic.

You are the one who started the old-school vs. new-school rant with THIS post.

Not to sound like a @#$%@#$%@ but...HOW CAN YOU NOT LIKE THE CLICK!?  Arcades were built on the click!!!  The click is classic!!!  That's the whole reason I'm getting into this, I'm sick of the new school crap with no clicks!!!

You can't get mad at people for ranting back, when you are trying to claim "old school" superiority, using "new school" technology to make your case.

3. "Have you ever heard pf Pacman?  Ms. Pacman?"
A better question is how you never noticed the fact that most of the people who used to play Pacman and Ms. Pacman used to slam the joysticks in each direction so fast that, besides almost breaking the ball of in their hand, essentially made a clicking sound.

Again, those were not clicks made by the controllers.
Those sticks were leaf-switch sticks, and did NOT click.

So to anyone who decided to jump me for my comment, you can click THAT.  

For me, it's not about the click/not-click issue, but rather about what works well.

The sticks that you are probably most familiar with, given that you feel the arcades were "built on clicks" are the Happs crap that eventually became standard on most machines.
Those sticks suck from a players standpoint, and only BECAME standard as arcades shifted from a manned operation to a route operation.

When the arcades actually had a tech on staff, adjusting controls, etc... was viewed as a necessary evil, and controls were fixed quickly and efficiently to keep the game operational.
Wicos were the standard at this time because they were durable, and worked better, from a player standpoint, than their microswitch counterparts.
This made the operator more money because people wanted to play them.

Once the shift was made to a route system, the sticks began to be replaced with microswitches because they didn't require as much maintenance.
There's nothing worse than coming back a week after a control failure to find out your machine hasn't been making ANY money since you were last there.

[Minwah]

My Galaga cocktail from '81 has a leaf switch button...but a microswitch 2-way stick (not the microswitches most commonly found now, I believe they are called subminature  (sp) or something)...

Just thought I'd lob that in  

pcolson: did you have to cut down the actuators on your Cherry microswitches?  I took some from a Happ Super to fit onto my T-Stik, but had to cut off part of the actuator (they are longer on Supers).  The difference is amazing tho

[Kremmit]

Karate Champ uses 4 of them, and Assault uses 4 as well (including top-fire ones).

I agree with you about Karate Champ- but I thought Assault was 1 player at a time only, and therefore would only require two sticks.  

[NoOne=NBA=]

Yes, Assault is 1-P; but does use two sticks, so I included it.
I didn't proof my post before I posted it.

[Grauwulf]

Thanks NoOne=NBA= That answeres my question. That way I only have to buy one T-stick Plus and one regular one. I can put the 4-8 way switchable one in the 1P position to play 4-way games.

[Nefesis]

The T-stick plus is excellent for 4/8 way switching, but I don't like the feel with the switches that come with it.  I replaced them with Cherrys, and it is fantastic!!!

when you said you replaced the microswitches, did you replace them with the .187" 0.1 amp ones from happs? avaliable here: http://www.happcontrols.com/index.html?http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/acesor/switches.htm!

[Todd H]

I'm interested in this whole T-Stick/cherry microswitch deal.  I'm still planning my control panel and I'm trying to avoid turning it into a frankenpanel.  

To me, the ultimate joystick would combine the feel of the Competition with the T-Stick's easy 4/8 way switching.  A man can dream can't he?  

[NoOne=NBA=]

You can actually HAVE that, if you really want it.

Just hook an automotive fan control assembly to the 4-way/8-way actuator on a J-stik, so that it pulls/pushes the actuator from outside the cabinet.

It's got the soft feel/long throw of the Competitions, but the easy switching of the T-stik.

[Todd H]

Oops, should have said T-Stick Plus.  Is there a way to modify the J-Stick so that you can switch between 4 and 8 way by pulling up on the stick and turning it like the T-Stick Plus?  And could you go into a little more detail NoOne=NBA= about the automotive fan control assembly thing?

[independentthread]

For me, it's not about the click/not-click issue, but rather about what works well.

The sticks that you are probably most familiar with, given that you feel the arcades were "built on clicks" are the Happs crap that eventually became standard on most machines.
Those sticks suck from a players standpoint, and only BECAME standard as arcades shifted from a manned operation to a route operation.

When the arcades actually had a tech on staff, adjusting controls, etc... was viewed as a necessary evil, and controls were fixed quickly and efficiently to keep the game operational.
Wicos were the standard at this time because they were durable, and worked better, from a player standpoint, than their microswitch counterparts.
This made the operator more money because people wanted to play them.

Once the shift was made to a route system, the sticks began to be replaced with microswitches because they didn't require as much maintenance.
There's nothing worse than coming back a week after a control failure to find out your machine hasn't been making ANY money since you were last there.

Thank you for the history lesson.  You're missing the point.  Take two pieces of metal and tap them together.  What kind of sound does it make?  Take a piece of metal and tap it against a piece of wood.  What kind of sound does it make?  Nowhere did I say that microswitches were better than leaf switches, so trying to argue that is ludicrous.  And as far as what I grew up on, I've been playing arcade games pretty much all my life and I happen to be 25 years old.  Is 1982 the mid 80's?
I'm done arguing this because it's all about preference anyway.  I just think that the search for silent controls is pointless because inevitably there is going to be a sound made, whether it happens to be from a microswitch, a leaf switch, or someone screaming at the game for going up when they thought they hit left.

Besides, this thread wasn't even about any of this crap.  I stated an opinion, and didn't intend to start a war of misstated facts.

independentthread hearby promises not to disturb the integrity of this thread any longer.

[Minwah]

when you said you replaced the microswitches, did you replace them with the .187" 0.1 amp ones from happs? avaliable here: http://www.happcontrols.com/index.html?http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/acesor/switches.htm!

I can't answer for pcolson (I am interested also), but I used these:

http://www.happcontrols.com/electrical_supplies/95073500.htm

The ones with the 1" actuator, although I had to cut ~1cm off of the actuator.

NoOneNBA: I'd like to hear some more about the fan control switching idea...

[Nefesis]

when you said you replaced the microswitches, did you replace them with the .187" 0.1 amp ones from happs? avaliable here: http://www.happcontrols.com/index.html?http://www.happcontrols.com/amusement/acesor/switches.htm!

I can't answer for pcolson (I am interested also), but I used these:

http://www.happcontrols.com/electrical_supplies/95073500.htm

The ones with the 1" actuator, although I had to cut ~1cm off of the actuator.

NoOneNBA: I'd like to hear some more about the fan control switching idea...

cool. the actutator is the long part that sticks off the top?

[NoOne=NBA=]

No, the actuator is the little piece that sticks out the bottom, and pushes the leaf switches together.

As far as the fan control idea, someone else here actually made a similar push-rod type switch system about a year ago, or so.
The theory is pretty simple.
You take an auto fan control, lawnmower throttle cable, auto choke cable, etc... and hook it to the cab so that the cable inside pushes/pulls on the restrictor plate.



The areas that need special attention are:

1) Making sure that the cable body is secured near the restrictor plate with a mounting block of some sort.
If you don't do this, the entire cable, shield and everything will move, and it won't turn the restrictor properly.

2) Making sure the cable doesn't turn too tight of a radius on the way across.
The straighter the cable runs, the easier it will work.

3) Making sure that the piece attached to the restrictor is secure enough to last.
I haven't actually done this hack, so I'm not sure what problems you may run into getting a lever on the restrictor to stay securely.
One idea I had was to remove one of the screws, and use the slot for that screw to secure the end of the cable in place somehow.

[Minwah]

cool. the actutator is the long part that sticks off the top?

Yes, the metal lever part.  I think NoOneNBA is talking about something else...

[Minwah]

As far as the fan control idea, someone else here actually made a similar push-rod type switch system about a year ago, or so.
The theory is pretty simple.
You take an auto fan control, lawnmower throttle cable, auto choke cable, etc... and hook it to the cab so that the cable inside pushes/pulls on the restrictor plate.



The areas that need special attention are:

1) Making sure that the cable body is secured near the restrictor plate with a mounting block of some sort.
If you don't do this, the entire cable, shield and everything will move, and it won't turn the restrictor properly.

2) Making sure the cable doesn't turn too tight of a radius on the way across.
The straighter the cable runs, the easier it will work.

3) Making sure that the piece attached to the restrictor is secure enough to last.
I haven't actually done this hack, so I'm not sure what problems you may run into getting a lever on the restrictor to stay securely.
One idea I had was to remove one of the screws, and use the slot for that screw to secure the end of the cable in place somehow.

Good idea  Not sure how well it would work when pushing the cable tho...

I wonder if it would be possible to go a step further and rotate the restrictor plate using a gear driven by a slow motor of some kind - I know it has been mentioned before...

[NoOne=NBA=]

Good idea  Not sure how well it would work when pushing the cable tho...

It opens the half-stuck vent thing on my Jeep--if you ram it quickly and hard.
I can't see that little restrictor plate giving it anywhere NEAR that kind of resistance.


Note to self: Fix half-stuck vent thing on Jeep.


And yes, I was talking about a different actuator.
Somebody had asked earlier about 8-way leaf sticks in this thread, or another one.
I had told them about a guy that was replacing everything but the base and actuator on some 8-ways with parts from 4-way NOS sticks.