Analog Joystick Mod Ideas...

[Minwah]

I have an old Happ trigger stick from ebay (bad pic here: http://www.arcadecontrols.org/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=18539;start=msg151136#msg151136 )

I have removed the grip and modified the shaft to accept a modified J-Stik shaft & balltop.  Also I stripped the joystick right down, cleaned, re-greased and rebuilt...

Here's the problem: I started playing with it for the first time and it appears the centering is a bit crap - sometimes it doesn't return enough and sometimes it returns too far.  I haven't altered anything which would affect that, I think it is just a poor design.  I thought Happ still sold these sticks, but on closer inspection they seem to have revised the design slightly, removing the 1 large spring in favor of 2 smaller springs opposite the pots ( http://www.happcontrols.com/joysticks/95006500x.htm ).

So my first thought was to buy the different parts and update mine, since the main housing etc. seems to be the same.  I am waiting for a quote for the parts from Happ atm...

Then I started thinking how I could modify the stick myself and I remembered the old Sinistar spider thing (see here: http://www.urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html , great page URebel btw).  I figure I could extend the bolts which hold the housing together, and use these bolts as points for some kind of elastic/spring setup (see attached pic).  Then I remembered Xiaou2's inner tube contraption ( http://www.homestead.com/xiaou2/arcade.html ).

So my thinking is that the only problem with doing a similar job on my stick is that it will feel like a Sinistar stick, ie get harder to move at the extents of the stick (it already feels like this, I've never used a real Sinistar one to compare tho).  I was wondering if anyone can think of something other than an inner-tube that would perhaps give less resistance, but be capable of returning the stick to centre?  Or an alternative solution altogether?

I'm going to do a test tomorrow hopefully using some rubber bands - might give me more of an idea...

Edit: One other thing: the Sinistars spider 'legs' run horizontally and vertically...the way I propose to do it they would be diagonal - how would this affect the feel?  Make diagonals stiffer?

(Forgot to attach pic too)

[Minwah]

Here's a pic of the stick atm, it looks nice at least

[Tiger-Heli]

You can get replacement spiders here, if that helps you any:

http://www.wizzesworkshop.com/cart/product.asp?intProdID=20

[Minwah]

You can get replacement spiders here, if that helps you any:

http://www.wizzesworkshop.com/cart/product.asp?intProdID=20

Thanks, I was looking for that earlier...

Don't think I can use that part tho, due to the size of the shaft on my stick.

[Rocky]

I was wondering if anyone can think of something other than an inner-tube that would perhaps give less resistance, but be capable of returning the stick to centre?  Or an alternative solution altogether?

I used bungee cords (not the rubber kind, the ones that are sort of like rope) for the centering for my steering wheel.  They do increase in pull the more you stretch them, but I think it would be hardly noticable for the throw of a joystick.

Good luck (and nice work so far),
Rocky

[Xiaou2]

 Heres a few things...

 Make sure you actually mount the thing and play test it.  If you dont mount it when testing it - you really wont get it to feel right as it will seem harder to move the stick.

 Interesting design they made...   The long bottom shaft probably creates a lot of tention from the leverage point... more so than the bike tire contraption im guessing.  

 Ive seen that some of the other arcade joys use pulling springs rather than the push type spring.   A long spring that pulls downward may actually be better to center the stick without the problem you are seeing.  However..that means a huge mounting depth under the cp.

 I had tried the bungee cords and rubber bands on my first proto.  I thought the resistence wasnt great enough to my liking (but it did give me a little taste of victory that drove me to find the best material : )... that and rubber bands just wernt going to hold up.  Bungee is also very hard to get mounted perfectly so that its centered correctly.

 Rubber car tiedowns were a bit too strong... and didnt flex enough.

 You have to also consider what type fo games you are playing with the stick.   With sinistar - you want a tight feel to it so that you do not go too fast....  However - if you were playing afterburner - youd have a hard time rocking it left to right quickly enough... unless your band strength was lower (compromise between the 2 types of games).  

 I used two strips per axis to achieve what i feel is perfect for sinistar and games that you have to have high precision of control... but you could just use one instead - for a quicker stick.

 As for the feel of going diagnol -vs- straight... it seems un-noticible.  I believe its because you are fighting mostly only one band when going diagnol... and more like 3 when you are going non-diagnol directions... so it ballances out well. (it may also be because of flexing the rubber into itself - rather than at a curve creates differing forces)

 Anyway - try the two different methods:  bands,  and
a long down pulling spring... and see what works best for you.

[Minwah]

Thanks guys, that's really helpful

I had thought of bungees but wasn't sure how to fix them.  I have some elastic which I think I will try first - I bought some rivets and a small metal collar to fix the elastic to, and to attach it to the shaft/bolts.  It should be good enough to test the theory, probably not a long term solution...I will try inner tube rubber using the same method.

Xiaou2: when you say 'long down pulling spring' do you mean have a spring attached to the end (bottom) of the shaft, and then attached to a fixed point below the joystick?

[Lilwolf]

looks GREAT!

With the spring on the bottom...  doesn't it center fast enought already?

sure the spider makes you push into a direction... but it still really just adding more resistence.

btw, I just wired my 49 way to a control panel.  I spend a bunch of time trying to get a button setup that would work with n64 emulation (since my daughter LOVES zelda games... or watching me play them).  The new 49way controller from Dave is GREAT!  Now I just need to add a switch on top of the control panel for the weighted scale or straight scale.  Sinistar needs the weighted scale.  But n64 really needs a straight scale.

[Minwah]

looks GREAT!

With the spring on the bottom...  doesn't it center fast enought already?

Well no  Basically it does centre(ish), but it returns to a different place every time.  Sometimes it over-shoots, and other times it does not return enough.  The ball/socket joint is really free and very easy to move around without the spring...but with the spring on it just doesn't work right.  It looks like it should work but it just doesn't!

sure the spider makes you push into a direction... but it still really just adding more resistence.

Yeah I see what you mean.  But using 4 opposing forces is the best way I can think of to make sure the stick returns to exactly the same spot.

btw, I just wired my 49 way to a control panel.  I spend a bunch of time trying to get a button setup that would work with n64 emulation (since my daughter LOVES zelda games... or watching me play them).  The new 49way controller from Dave is GREAT!  Now I just need to add a switch on top of the control panel for the weighted scale or straight scale.  Sinistar needs the weighted scale.  But n64 really needs a straight scale.

Cool, that's good to know  Any comments on how the 49-way works with analog stick games?  Stuff like Escape from the Planet of the Robot Monsters and Road Runner I am quite interested in...

[Lilwolf]

It runs pretty good.  

I have to test it with more games this week.  

The big thing is there is two ways to set the range.  Scale and Straight scale.  Most games seems to run better in a straight scale... but sinistar.

I only had time this weekend to play a few games... sad I spend hours redoing controlpanels... and played maybe 5 games.

[Xiaou2]

Thanks guys, that's really helpful

I had thought of bungees but wasn't sure how to fix them.  I have some elastic which I think I will try first - I bought some rivets and a small metal collar to fix the elastic to, and to attach it to the shaft/bolts.  It should be good enough to test the theory, probably not a long term solution...I will try inner tube rubber using the same method.

Xiaou2: when you say 'long down pulling spring' do you mean have a spring attached to the end (bottom) of the shaft, and then attached to a fixed point below the joystick?

 Yes.  the spring being in direct center should keep the foroces from horizontal play.   That large compression spring tends to move all over the place - as well as distributes teh forces in odd ways over a wide area.  This makes returning to center less accurate.

[Minwah]

Yes.  the spring being in direct center should keep the foroces from horizontal play.   That large compression spring tends to move all over the place - as well as distributes teh forces in odd ways over a wide area.  This makes returning to center less accurate.

Sounds good, yes the existing spring is not great...you're right, you can almost see the different forces the spring applies when you move the stick - part of the problem is at the top and bottom of the spring, where the shape of the spring to achive a flat top/bottom is not uniform (kindof bunched up).

I'll try the spring idea if the idea I'm about to try fails...

Lilwolf: thanks, sounds good, be sure to play some more...I know what it's like

[Kremmit]

Minwah-

Did you solve your problem?  I just picked up two of those same sticks, and would like to know.

[Minwah]

Did you solve your problem?  I just picked up two of those same sticks, and would like to know.

Ooops, sorry, missed this before...

Basically no  I tried elastic and got something which worked OK...but not great.  It is probably best for Sinistar as it gets harder to move the stick the further you push - this is part of the problem I think.

I looked into getting some parts from Happ (looks like they revised the design) but (what a surprise) the parts are a rip-off.

So for now I have given up, and will use a 49-way instead...

[Xiaou2]

this is the mod that should work. (pic enclosed)
You need to build an extension and use a pulling spring.  Do not use rubber or bungee.

49 ways will work almost the same as your experiment.

[Kremmit]

Hey, wow, I didn't expect to see this thread again after all this time.  
Your bracket looks like the way to go, Xiaou2.

[Xiaou2]

heh, i didnt make this one.  Im getting the entire assembly from ebay : )    Though,  its not a hard thing to make.

 (Making the sini-stik rubber x-spring is much harder)

[Minwah]

Your bracket looks like the way to go, Xiaou2.

Yeah it looks good  I'll probably have a go at making something like that at some point...