Where to buy "KeyWiz"?

[Tiger-Heli]

Is there any way to bring this down in price at all?  I can get the buttons cheaper at xgaming, but they may not be as good (?) and I would have to pay shipping.

Well, if you're going to get a prodigy, you might want to get a mounting plate for the basic as well (just so they'll look balanced on the CP).  I realize I'm going the wrong way on price.

Otherwise, your cheap option is to use the Xgaming buttons and joys for 8-way games, and add a basic Omni-Stik for 4-way games.

[tep0583]

I have a set of the X-gaming sticks/buttons and they work OK for me, but they're NOT of the quality of my Happs Comps., either. The buttons work well and the joysticks do function acceptably in both 8 and 4-way modes, but are a real pain to switch, especially when mounted. I'm replacing the X-arcade joystick in my classic cab with a 4/8-way switchable model (not sure which yet)

If you're not going to play a lot of 4-way games (or all 4-way games), the X-arcade sticks should work well. The Happs comps. would work great in the same aplication IMO. It is hard to beat 2 sticks and 20 buttons for $26 shipped, however. You can always upgrade later.

If you're looking to save money, go with the Keywiz. I have an Eco in my classic cab and it was a snap to setup. I had it up and runnning in under an hour. None of the keyboard hacks I put together were nearly as easy or fast to get going.

The cab I'm currently working on (my powerhouse cab, fighting games ans such) will have Happs comps and pushbuttons and will be interfaced through a keywiz. (no offense to Ultimark, the Ipac is a dead cool device, but i can get the Kewiz for significantly less and it does everything I need it to)

[Stingray]

You won't regret spending the extra for a Prodigy stick. IMO it's the best switchable stick on the market.

-S

[Dougmeister]

Ok, last try:

X-Gaming:
$27.90 2 Joysticks, 20 Buttons ($19.95 + $7.95)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=3293610641

GroovyGameGear
$34.95 OmniStik "Prodigy" (1)
$34.95 KeyWiz Max (1)
$8.95 shipping (US Priority mail, insured)

Peale:
$6.00 100 Red quick disconnects (100)

= $112.75

Thoughts?  Can it be done cheaper w/ a switchable 4/8-way stick?  X-Gaming buttons gonna be good enough?  Am I missing anything else (other than wire)?

[Tiger-Heli]

Ok, last try:

X-Gaming:
$27.90 2 Joysticks, 20 Buttons ($19.95 + $7.95)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13716&item=3293610641

GroovyGameGear
$34.95 OmniStik "Prodigy" (1)
$34.95 KeyWiz Max (1)
$8.95 shipping (US Priority mail, insured)

Peale:
$6.00 100 Red quick disconnects (100)

= $112.75

Thoughts?  Can it be done cheaper w/ a switchable 4/8-way stick?  X-Gaming buttons gonna be good enough?  Am I missing anything else (other than wire)?

You're losing your player start buttons.  I'm not sure how 2-player games will do with 1 Player using a prodigy and player 2 using an X-arcade.  I think the X-arcade buttons would be okay.

I still recommend either using a Prodigy for P1 and an Omni-Stik basic for P2 (and buy the buttons rather than the X-Arcade package), or use the X-Arcade joys for P1 and P2 and use a separate Omni-Stik basic as a third dedicated 4-way stick.

[Dougmeister]

If you're going to get QDs, esp the red ones, you better order now.  I've only got two packs of 100 each left (of the red) but plenty of blues.

Edit: gone now!  All I have left is the blues, both .187" and .250"

Peale, no difference other than aesthetics, right?

[Tiger-Heli]

If you're going to get QDs, esp the red ones, you better order now.  I've only got two packs of 100 each left (of the red) but plenty of blues.

Edit: gone now!  All I have left is the blues, both .187" and .250"

Peale, no difference other than aesthetics, right?

Wrong - Go to Radio Shack or an Auto Parts store.  The overlap varies, but

Yellow - Thick heavy gauge wire
Blue - Medium gauge wire
Red - Small gauge wire.

Most of these switches would want the red tabs, but the blue could be used were you are trying to run multiple wires to the same Q-D (like a ground loop or sth.)

[Dougmeister]

Drat.  Well, not gonna order 'til next week at this point, so if you get any more, Peale, let me know.  Otherwise I'll order from GGG or visit The Shack.

[Tiger-Heli]

Clarification - I meant actually go to Radio Shack or an auto store and LOOK at the connectors to get an idea of the difference, not necessarily to buy them there.

[Dougmeister]

Gotcha.  Thx.

[SirPeale]

I did just run out, but I ordered more.

[Dougmeister]

Cool.  What's the best way to check next week if you have them back in stock or not?  This thread?  PM?  E-mail?  Website?

[SirPeale]

Definitely website.

I *just* received a message from my supplier.  They stated that they're OOS, and won't be restocked until the second week of June.

I'll post in the for sale forum when they're back in stock.

[Dougmeister]

Ok.  Thanks.

[AndyWarne]

(no offense to Ultimark, the Ipac is a dead cool device, but i can get the Kewiz for significantly less and it does everything I need it to)

If cost is an important issue check out the I-PAC VE (www.ultimarc.com/ipacve.html)
BTW we also sell the Suzo System 500 sticks.
Also try the math with all the wire and disconnects vs the Mini-PAC (www.ultimarc.com/minipac.html) to be honest I have not tried this calculation!

Andy

[Grasshopper]

(no offense to Ultimark, the Ipac is a dead cool device, but i can get the Kewiz for significantly less and it does everything I need it to)

If cost is an important issue check out the I-PAC VE (www.ultimarc.com/ipacve.html)
BTW we also sell the Suzo System 500 sticks.
Also try the math with all the wire and disconnects vs the Mini-PAC (www.ultimarc.com/minipac.html) to be honest I have not tried this calculation!

Andy

Andy, are you still going to be selling a version of the Mini-Pac with 36 inputs?

[Dougmeister]

<Sound of Doug's head exploding>

Ok, someone explain to me the pros and cons of buying the KeyWiz Max and some quick disconnects vs. what Andy is selling...

[Tiger-Heli]

<Sound of Doug's head exploding>

Ok, someone explain to me the pros and cons of buying the KeyWiz Max and some quick disconnects vs. what Andy is selling...

Mini-pac has been discussed on the board before.  The base model, you will pay almost as much as a KeyWiz with shipping, and you have to hack an IDE cable which makes it hard to change positions of the wires if you change your mind.  The model with the wire harness is probably more expensive than wiring your own, you will probably have quick-disconnects which are too large in some cases, and some of the wires will probably be longer than you would prefer, but you save the time and effort of crimping.

I haven't heard of the I-PAC VE before.  I would say it's very comparable to the KeyWiz Max, with the following differences:

Price should be a wash between shipping for the KeyWiz and buying the USB cable for the VE.

VE supports Keyboard LED's, but I'm not sure how you wire them up (bi-directional on 1A and 1B and 2A like a standard I-PAC , maybe?)

VE is USB only, KeyWiz is PS/2 only.  IMHO, USB is more convenient for a desktop controller, and PS/2 is better performance-wise for a keyboard encoder in an arcade cab, but opinions vary widely.

VE has no keyboard pass-thru, but also doesn't need one.

The shifted key function works differently between the two units.  I feel the KeyWiz is slightly more flexible for specialized applications, but it's a matter of opinion also.

Finally, the programming software is different between the two products.  I like the set-up of the KeyWiz software and it has the ability to launch a program with a specified codeset.  The VE's IPCD software is a unique concept in that you program the unit using an image of your CP.  I'm not sure if it has the ability to launch an application with a codeset, but you could do this with it with batch files.

You can download the VE's software and test it out to see what you think.

[AndyWarne]

 
Andy

Andy, are you still going to be selling a version of the Mini-Pac with 36 inputs?

This is not completely dead, the problem is the complexity of adding it to the WinIPAC IPD software. But I might do a version with 32 programmable and 4 fixed inputs (what do I "fix" them to ??)
The reason for this is the IPD software already has 32-input functionality (for the I-PAC VE)
Andy

[Dougmeister]

Aren't there any decent, dedicated 4-way sticks out there?  Every Happ seems to be 8-way and the OmniStiks you can toggle.  

I'd get the OmniStik Basic for $13.50, but it seems that I'd need to buy the mounting plate for an additional $12.95 + $1.00 extra shipping to use that one.  At that price, I may as well pay the extra $7.50 and get the Prodigy, right?

[Tiger-Heli]

Aren't there any decent, dedicated 4-way sticks out there?  Every Happ seems to be 8-way and the OmniStiks you can toggle.  

I'd get the OmniStik Basic for $13.50, but it seems that I'd need to buy the mounting plate for an additional $12.95 + $1.00 extra shipping to use that one.  At that price, I may as well pay the extra $7.50 and get the Prodigy, right?

The best dedicated 4-way is probably the Happ Galaga/Ms-Pac stick, but that needs a mounting plate also.  Seimitsu also makes a good 4-way (actually switchable) but I think you can only find them on E-bay.

The Omni-Stik in 4-way mode is a good option.  Mounting was discussed above, and the Prodigy was recommended above also.

[wakerlet]

As for dedicated four ways, Betson/Imperial also has a ms pacman/galaga reunion stick (short shaft).  But...they also sell a Qix/Space Invaders reunion 4-way  (about 1 inch longer shaft).  Stock number is 47-9075-07.  I imagine these could be mounted to a wood cp.

[Dougmeister]

(Sorry, Peale - can't wait 'til 2nd week of June - thanks for the warning that your stock was running low, though!)

Thinking about just getting the Quick Disconnects from GroovyGameGear, but don't know which ones to get:

Connectors
-----------------------------------------
Female Quick Disconnects .187" - $1.99
Quantity:  25 pcs
These can be used with the Omni-Stik(tm)for simple hookups.  
     
Female Quick Disconnects .187" - Blue - $3.49
Quantity:  50 pcs
These can be used with the Omni-Stik(tm)for simple hookups.  
     
Female Quick Disconnects .25 - $1.99
Quantity:  25 pcs
These can be used with our pushbuttons for simple hookups.  
     
Female Quick Disconnects .25 - $3.49
Quantity:  50 pcs
These can be used with our pushbuttons for simple hookups.  

Female Quick Disconnects .187" - Red - $1.99
Quantity:  25 pcs
These can be used with the Omni-Stik(tm)for simple hookups.  
     
Female Quick Disconnects .187" - Red - $3.49
Quantity:  50 pcs
These can be used with the Omni-Stik(tm)for simple hookups.  
     
Female Quick Disconnects .25" - Red - $1.99
Quantity:  25 pcs
These can be used with our pushbuttons for simple hookups.
     
Female Quick Disconnects .25 - $3.49
Quantity:  50 pcs
These can be used with our pushbuttons for simple hookups.

http://www.groovygamegear.com/cgi/surfshop/shop.cgi?ud=UkpEVFNOM0lYRSUlJSUlJTEwODYwOTEwMDUA&storeid=1&c=search.htm&categories=0023

This is what I'm thinking of buying:

$34.95 OmniStik "Prodigy"
$13.50 OmniStik "Basic"
$13.50 Mounting Bracket
$34.95 KeyWiz Max
$16.68 Pushbuttons (12 @ $1.39)
$  3.58 P1/P2 Pushbuttons (2 @ $1.79 ea)
$  1.39 (Yellow button for coin)
$  8.95 Shipping (US Priority mail, insured)
-------
$127.50

[Tiger-Heli]

Thinking about just getting the Quick Disconnects from GroovyGameGear, but don't know which ones to get:

Choices look good on the joysticks.

If you are using 22 gauge wire, you can probably get two wires into the "red" connectors.  Three or more would need the "Blue" ones.

So you shouldn't need many if any blue ones.

Sounds like GGG uses 0.25 for the buttons and 0.187 for the joysticks, but I would E-mail RandyT before you order to verify.

[Dougmeister]

Choices look good on the joysticks.

If you are using 22 gauge wire, you can probably get two wires into the "red" connectors.  Three or more would need the "Blue" ones.

So you shouldn't need many if any blue ones.

Sounds like GGG uses 0.25 for the buttons and 0.187 for the joysticks, but I would E-mail RandyT before you order to verify.

They look good to you because I finally took your advice

1) So if I only need the blue ones (will verify w/ RandyT before I order), and each button needs 2 and each joystick need 8, I should only need 34 connectors, right?

2) What buttons should I include?

I'm thinking about only putting 4 buttons per player... that will limit certain games, but I'm thinking only fighters (which I'm really not "into" anyway, w/ the possible exceptions of Virtua Fighter and Mortal Kombat... do they need 6 buttons?), do you think that will limit me unnecessarily?

I was going to do: 4 buttons per player, 1 coin button, 2 player start buttons, and a couple of extra for good measure.  Whaddya think?  Am I missing anything?

[Tiger-Heli]

They look good to you because I finally took your advice

Fair enough!

1) So if I only need the blue ones

I said you would only need the red ones and few if any blue ones.

(will verify w/ RandyT before I order), and each button needs 2 and each joystick need 8, I should only need 34 connectors, right?

I counted 15 buttons and 2 joysticks, so 30+16=46

2) What buttons should I include?
I'm thinking about only putting 4 buttons per player... that will limit certain games, but I'm thinking only fighters (which I'm really not "into" anyway, w/ the possible exceptions of Virtua Fighter and Mortal Kombat... do they need 6 buttons?), do you think that will limit me unnecessarily?

Well I would consider Mortal Kombat a fighter - It used 5 buttons, but I think later versions had a sixth "run" button.

Personally, I don't play fighters, and I ended up planning on 7 buttons per player (and dual pinball flippers) on the theory that I like the looks of the modified SF / HotRod SE layout, it will be handy for some PC and Nintendo 64 games (in Project 64), and I would rather have buttons I don't need than need buttons I don't have.

Again, though it comes down to - Are there games that you play (often) that only having 4 buttons per player would hamper you?

[Dougmeister]

Man, I should not have given up caffeine... yeah, I meant "red'... doh.

And my math was messed up, too.  So if I go w/ 6 buttons per player, the count would be:

12 player buttons (2 x 6)
 2 player "start" buttons
 1 "coin" button

Thus, I would need 46 connectors, as you said.

Ok, almost done.

When I look at my bill, I start to wonder why I don't just buy a Hotrod for $100 and be done with it... what's the downside there?  They are strictly 8-way joysticks?

[Tiger-Heli]

When I look at my bill, I start to wonder why I don't just buy a Hotrod for $100 and be done with it... what's the downside there?  They are strictly 8-way joysticks?

I know the feeling . . .  although you're only $27 more than the HotRod, but you have to buy the wood also.

Downsides - First, like you said - HotRod uses Happ Supers, so you're back to popping off E-clips to get into 4-way mode and then they're not really good 4-way sticks.

Plus the encoder on the Hot Rod is not programmable and also probably not as good as a KeyWiz or I-PAC.  Won't matter much for MAME, but if you start looking at other Emulators, or PC Games . . .

[dkraines]

but basically, a keyboard hack is limited to at most 20 (16 with some tricks, usually) non-ghosting inputs.  

deleted. Oops, i had a math error

You can usually get more than 20.  Some keys are not pressed during gameplay.  Also, you have polar axis on a joysick.  Definately, don't use a matrix for a 4 person fighter.

btw, I just bought a Memorex at CompUSA for $6 (before a $6 rebate).  I have the matrix layout if anyone is interested.  I will e-mail the layout to the person that runs this site:  (http://www.mameworld.net/emuadvice/keyhack2.html).  I was surprised to see the size of the IC compared to the older keytronics I have used in the past.

[Tiger-Heli]

Actually, you get a lot more than that without any ghosting problems.  It takes a rectangle of three (plus the ghosted fourth key) to create a ghost condition.  So on a 8 X 14 matrix, you could have 56 non ghosting inputs (8 * 14 / 2).  Of course a few of the hooks would be unusable because they are special keys (I.E. windows shutdown, sound controls...etc).  I guess, the only reason I think ghosting would be a problem is on a 4 player fighting game.  You may have to remap in mame, though I have never had to remap.

I believe on an 8x14 matrix, you would have 14 non-ghosting inputs and then you could double up the joystick directions, so 18 inputs if using two joysticks (without ghosting/blocking etc.)

I will e-mail to the person that runs this site.  (http://www.mameworld.net/emuadvice/keyhack2.html).  I was surprised to see the size of the IC compared to the older keytronics I have used in the past.

That would be me.  I'd be glad to look at the matrix, but I see no way you get 56 inputs.

[dkraines]

Yeah,  you're right, too early in the morning.  56 inputs, what was I thinking.  I hit post, and then immediately realized my error.  At least it wasn't a work e-mail to my boss .  I will e-mail you in a few minutes with the layout.  The layout is not that bad for mame actually.  But the price is right.

[Dougmeister]

Ok.  Finally ready to order, but...

Where do I buy 22 gauge wire for this project?  How much do I buy?  Is 22 ga the right size?

[SirPeale]

LOL...I'll have some more the same time I get the disconnects.

[Dougmeister]

Timing is half of life, isn't it?

I'll just scrounge some wire up around here.  Thanks anyway!

[Tiger-Heli]

Ok.  Finally ready to order, but...

Where do I buy 22 gauge wire for this project?  How much do I buy?  Is 22 ga the right size?

Where - Someone posted a link on the forum for a reasonable website for this.  Not sure if GGG has it.  Bob Roberts does.  www.allelectronics.com used to be I think they discontinued it.  Radio Shack if all else fails.

Amount - You need twice (power and ground) the distance from each switch to the encoder.  (A little less than twice because you can "chain" the ground wires from one switch to the next in a loop).  Plus extra for slack/mistakes, etc.

Size - Stranded is usually preferred over solid, but either will work.  Also in case you don't know lower (numerical gage is thicker wire).  Look under your car - Internal dash wiring is 18-22 gauge - The wire coming off the alternator is probably 12-14 gage - The wires off the batter are probably 2-4 Gauge.  22-Gauge is usually picked because it's thick enough to be easy to work with but thin enough to be inexpensive.  20 or 18 is fine as well if you can't find 22.  Lots of people use DB25's for swappable panels and the internal wire for that is usually 28 or 32 gauge.  It works (especially going to screw terminal blocks), but I wouldn't want to put crimp connectors on it if I could avoid it.  OTOH, you could wire your panel with 10-gauge wire, but it would be expensive, less flexible to bend around corners, and wouldn't gain you anything (overkill).

[Tiger-Heli]

but basically, a keyboard hack is limited to at most 20 (16 with some tricks, usually) non-ghosting inputs.  

deleted. Oops, i had a math error

And I wrote up the reply before I saw you deleted that.  That will teach me.  Posting the details anyway.

You can usually get more than 20.  Some keys are not pressed during gameplay.

I said twenty non-ghosting inputs (usually max), details below.  Of course, you can use all the remaining keys for Coin, Start, Admin functions, etc., if you're not worried about pressing them during gameplay.

Also, you have polar axis on a joysick.

Meaning I think that the joystick up and down switches can't be pressed at the same time, but I accounted for that to get from the sixteen to 20 inputs.

Definately, don't use a matrix for a 4 person fighter.

There aren't any arcade games that are 4 person figters.  There are some console games.  You can usually support 4-player 2-button games (TMNT, Simpsons) with a keyboard hack.

Now here's my initial explanation:

I felt the need to clarify some of the things in this post before others get confused.  There is enough mis-information on keyboard hacks on the web already,

First you do not have to press 4 keys that form a rectangle to get blocking, only three.  And while they have to form a rectangle, they don

[Dougmeister]

Ok, guys, I'm done.  I ordered from GGG and should have the stuff within a few days.

Thanks to all for your patience and help.

[megashock5]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning the Ulitmarc T-Stick Plus for a 4-way/8-way switchable stick. People in another thread had me convinced that was what I should get.

Is this prodigy stick that you guys are mentioning better?

[Tiger-Heli]

I'm wondering why nobody is mentioning the Ulitmarc T-Stick Plus for a 4-way/8-way switchable stick. People in another thread had me convinced that was what I should get.

Is this prodigy stick that you guys are mentioning better?

Main comments I've read on the T-Stick (and Plus) said it had a short throw (good), stiff springs (not good, but personal preference), and very loud clicky micro-switches.

The Prodigy is supposed to have short throw, medium spring tension, and normal microswitches without spring actuators.

Apart from that, the Prodigy has an activation lever above the panel, so it's easy to look at the stick and tell whether it's in 8-way or 4-way. OTOH, the switching mecanism for the T-Stick Plus is below the CP and you lift the entire handle up to switch it, so it looks like a normal joystick when it's sitting in the panel.

[Bgnome]

Andy

Andy, are you still going to be selling a version of the Mini-Pac with 36 inputs?

This is not completely dead, the problem is the complexity of adding it to the WinIPAC IPD software. But I might do a version with 32 programmable and 4 fixed inputs (what do I "fix" them to ??)
The reason for this is the IPD software already has 32-input functionality (for the I-PAC VE)
Andy

*drudging up another buried thread..*
ive been wanting to get a minipac too but i am holding back until i get some firm info on this.  i have just noticed that on the UK page the 36 minipac VE listed as "Available Feb 2004" whereas there is no mention of it on the normal minipac page.  is this just a case of an outdated webpage, or is there any news on this?