1st Post - Getting Started - General Advice

[tk007b]

Hi all,

This forum is EXACTLY where I need to be here goes ..

Background
I decided to make a retro gaming setup but it's already getting much bigger than I first expected. I have chosen RetroBat as my UI of choice (seems pretty good, support is excellent).
My idea is to use a rising coffee table as my control panel, with the following attributes:
Left hand side - Player one controls, Right hand side Player 2 controls - Middle section for Analogue setup.  For example, left/ Right hand sides have 360 degree steering wheels (for Super Sprint). I've made these from rotary encoders, an Arduino Micro and some software to make it present as a HID/Mouse courtesy of AI/GPT. After having a nightmare with a gear shift, I've decided to use a joystick as a gear shifter, with a restrictor to only allow vertical movement. I have 2 Siden light guns and want to get a trackball but am umming over the size (will probably go for the 3" ball size)
Middle section I am thinking of Logitech G29 steering wheel set up with gearstick and maybe a flight stick.

Control Panel
Again ummimg over Ulitmarc's Ultimate IO and U-HID encoders, to allow flawless set up and operation (but don't know if that's overkill - probably a good idea, I think)
buttons I'm starting with LED buttons but may switch to the fancy RGB ones and then use LEDBlinky to do some funky lighting (not bothered about light show but like the idea of buttons lighting up the colour they should be for the emulator I select), e.g. Xbox light up in one colour order and Nintendo lights up in it's own (different) colour order.
Might get some fancy neon LED strips for the top and the bottom .. maybe ..

Wiring / Set Up

This is the hardest bit for me to get my head around. I have cheapy microswitch pedals, which I want to use for Super Sprint (as the game uses digital accelerator/gas pedal only) and for Time Crisis. However, when playing OutRun, in order to be in-keeping, I should use a analogue foot pedal for accelerating and therefore the G29 for steering too.

I have played around with manually setting up different buttons in MAME per game as that seems to work but it seems like a lot of set up ( I might just need to bite the bullet and just do it for each non standard game)

Then there's the mouse buttons for the trackball .. should I use 3 separate buttons or map them to the existing arcade buttons ..

Layout
I'm thinking of just figuring this out myself using looking at loads of previous setups to give me a feel of where things should go

Lastly, the idea is to have a false top for the coffee table lid, so it all gets concealed when not in use.


Any ideas/pointers, links to useful videos etc VERY WELCOMED :-)


Thanks guys !!

:-)

[PL1]

Then there's the mouse buttons for the trackball .. should I use 3 separate buttons or map them to the existing arcade buttons

Beware of kids and drunk/non-tech-savvy friends.   

Mouse buttons can allow them to accidently get into menus that you don't want them messing with.
- If you need mouse buttons during setup, plug in a mouse.

Another thing that can cause trouble is having a button or combo for them accessing the MAME menu system either via the 2A input's default "Tab" keystroke or the shifted function triggered by "P1 Start" + "P1 Joy Right" -- you may want to protect your setup by reprogramming the output for the 2A input and for that shifted function to something else.
- If you need to access the MAME setup menu, plug in a keyboard.

Lots of other useful info in the FAQ.   
https://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/FAQ#What_type_of_build_meets_my_needs.3F


Scott

[tk007b]

Comments embedded - thank you! :-)

Then there's the mouse buttons for the trackball .. should I use 3 separate buttons or map them to the existing arcade buttons

Beware of kids and drunk/non-tech-savvy friends.   
"Errrmmm .. .Ohh Kayyyy"  ;-)

Mouse buttons can allow them to accidently get into menus that you don't want them messing with.
- If you need mouse buttons during setup, plug in a mouse.
Thanks, I was thinking of having them for Missile Command, to the left of the TrackBall (when I get one) so I can shoot from all 3 bases easily.


Another thing that can cause trouble is having a button or combo for them accessing the MAME menu system either via the 2A input's default "Tab" keystroke or the shifted function triggered by "P1 Start" + "P1 Joy Right" -- you may want to protect your setup by reprogramming the output for the 2A input and for that shifted function to something else.
- If you need to access the MAME setup menu, plug in a keyboard.

Apologies, I don't know what you mean by 2A - Sorry if I'm being a bit thick!

Lots of other useful info in the FAQ.   
https://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/FAQ#What_type_of_build_meets_my_needs.3F

Top Man - thanks :-) 

Scott

[BadMouth]

Check out the driving cab subforum stickied beginner's thread to get a better understanding of how MAME's analog inputs work.
They aren't standardized like the basic JAMMA standard joystick and buttons, so each game needs set up and adjusted to play correctly.
Even if someone went through and adjusted all the games to some standard gamepad setup for you, that still wouldn't translate to the turn count/ppr/etc of your input devices.

The parts that are probably most important for you:

MAME's default dead zone is 30%!, reduce it to zero or near zero.
Increase saturation to 1 (100%).

Under analog inputs in MAME's in game menu,  adjust the sensitivity until the spinner steering feels right.
When using a simple switch instead of an analog gas pedal, you'll need to map the switch to AXIS INC (never map this when using actual analog controls!).  Then under the analog options there is a DIGITAL SPEED setting that determines how fast the virtual analog pedal ramps up when you press the button and a DIGITAL CENTER that determines how fast it returns when you let go of the switch.  These will need to be dialed in for games where the tires squeal and you lose time when you depress the gas too fast.  On games like Sprint and Super Offroad, it doesn't matter because I mash the pedal anyway.

There is also information in there on getting the shifter to work correctly.

These settings also affect how your guns work in the games that originally used mounted potentiometer based guns (like T2).
Whenever I see someone complaining about guns lagging or having a dead zone, I assume they don't know to adjust these settings.

DISCLAIMER: It has been something like a decade since I messed with this stuff and my knowledge could be outdated.  Ask for help in the driving cab subforum if you need it.

[tk007b]

Cool, will do (thanks)  .. looks like analogue adjustments are very fiddly!

Mind you, I spent 10 mins trying to find out why the brakes weren't working in Super Sprint, before the penny dropped!!  .. been so long since I played it, I had forgotten (there aren't any)!!!!

You have to laugh right!?

[PL1]

Beware of kids and drunk/non-tech-savvy friends.   

"Errrmmm .. .Ohh Kayyyy"  ;-)

You'll find a number of stories around here about BYOACers who had put many months into properly configuring their system and left menus accessible.

In some cases, it took months to find and fix changes made by kids/friends who had access to the system while the BYOACer's attention was somewhere else.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure -- better not to give Murphy's Law an opportunity IMHO.

Then there's the mouse buttons for the trackball .. should I use 3 separate buttons or map them to the existing arcade buttons

Mouse buttons can allow them to accidently get into menus that you don't want them messing with.
- If you need mouse buttons during setup, plug in a mouse.

Thanks, I was thinking of having them for Missile Command, to the left of the TrackBall (when I get one) so I can shoot from all 3 bases easily.

You can do that without using mouse buttons for those three Missile Command buttons.  You can connect them in parallel with your regular player buttons.

For example, you can connect both the Player 1 Button 1 and Left Missile Command Base button to the Player 1 Button 1 input.  Press either button and the encoder will output a "L. CTRL" keystroke.

Another thing that can cause trouble is having a button or combo for them accessing the MAME menu system either via the 2A input's default "Tab" keystroke or the shifted function triggered by "P1 Start" + "P1 Joy Right" -- you may want to protect your setup by reprogramming the output for the 2A input and for that shifted function to something else.
- If you need to access the MAME setup menu, plug in a keyboard.

Apologies, I don't know what you mean by 2A - Sorry if I'm being a bit thick!

You mentioned that you were considering using the Ultimarc Ultimate I/O encoder.

Input "2A" is in the lower-center group of pins, second from the upper right.
- When ground is applied to that pin, the default encoder output is a "Tab" keystroke which pulls up the menu system in MAME.
- If you need to use that input, you can change the output keystroke using the WinIPAC software.




Scott

[tk007b]

Apologies,
I didn't understand the meaning behind your warning. No one, and I mean no one, will come close to changing the settings on my set up when I do it. I can barely keep up with some of it myself (2A being a prime example) - So thanks, I get what you were trying to say originally (I thought you were making a joke)

There are, however,  things I still am not clear on, which I need to understand before I starting putting this all together. For example:

1. Is the ULITIMATE I/O and possible a U-HID the right way to go .. They are so expensive (comparatively) but if things just work, then it's money well spent (I have created 2 spinners from rotary encoders, which work well and I am yet to add a trackball (undecided if I should use the expensive 3" Ultimarc one or get a cheapy 2" version for less than half of the price.
2. A great example of something I just cannot get my head around is Track & Field. When I press the RUN buttons (I've tried on MAME and RetroArch and with the keyboard and my XBox controller) they work but I cannot get anywhere near to the super speeds I used to get on the actual arcade machine. In fact, when I repeatidly press, just one of the run keys (doesn't matter which) I actually run faster. This makes no sense to me at all. Do you know what I am doing wrong or have configured incorrectly to cause this
3. I am connecting an awful lot of USB peripherals to my gaming pc (Lightguns x 2, rotary encoders/steering wheels/spinners (at least 2 maybe 3), foot pedals (gas pedals if you're American) , an additional joystick for a shifter (as it works better than the dedicated shifter I bought)

Ultimately, even though I've plunged into learning, there's still so much I need to figure out.

Thanks a lot for all of your support with this, it is very much appreciated :-)

Cheers

TK   

[tk007b]

RE: Track & Field, I found this whilst searching the forum

https://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,153099.msg1603641.html#msg1603641

Looks like it's a game issue rather than a controller / encoder issue. The arcade game allowed me to run at super sonic speeds, as I could press the run buttons really quickly but there must be another reason why it's stops registering fast button presses.

more homework to do !

:-)

[Xiaou2]

A lot of Driving games.. can be played decently with a Digital Gas Pedal.. because the Acceleration isnt that Extreme...
HOWEVER...

 There are certain amazing games that really NEED that higher precision throttle control:

- Spy Hunter
- Sega's  Turbo

Im sure there may be others... but for these two games alone, Id always use an Analog Pedal Set.
The good thing about analog pedals.. is that emulators can treat them as both analog and digital.  I believe you can
set the activation point, where they will toggle on / off.. as far as a Digital translation goes.


Also.. I could Never play a game like Turbo, or Spy Hunter... with a Button based Shifter.  These games really need
a good 2-way shifter.   And games like Race Drivin.. really needs the 6 position shifter.   There are some affordable
6 position shifters on the market.. but I dont know how well they interact with emulators.   Of course, Race Drivin has
other issues... in that I believe it needs a 900 degree wheel.  That said.. a spinner "might" work, for steering the car.

"A great example of something I just cannot get my head around is Track & Field. When I press the RUN buttons (I've tried on MAME and RetroArch and with the keyboard and my XBox controller) they work but I cannot get anywhere near to the super speeds I used to get on the actual arcade machine. In fact, when I repeatidly press, just one of the run keys (doesn't matter which) I actually run faster. This makes no sense to me at all. Do you know what I am doing wrong or have configured incorrectly to cause this"

 In the arcade.. they used Long-Travel Leaf-Switch buttons (pinball buttons).  With many of these leaf button games... you have to press the button down about half way.. before the two metal contacts touch.. to activate the button.  The extra travel helps keep you from accidentally pressing.. when you are just keeing your fingers on the buttons.

 The leafs.. unlike Microswitches.. can be toggled on and off, from a mere papers thickness worth of movement / vibration.  To activate a micro-switch, requires about 1 to 2mm worth of travel.. for each direction... AND... the microswitch has a very strong spring force that causes a lot of finger fatigue, when you have to use repeatedly fast button presses.

 In order to get Maximum repeated speeds.. without any Fatigue from your fingers.. you want to do a technique called  "FEATHERING".
You install a real long travel leaf switch (dont use short travel versions, and they will bottom-out, and slow things down)..
then, you press the button until it Activates.  Once you activate it.. WITHOUT fully Pressing the button down to the bottom.. you can
lightly  "Vibrate"  your finger.  This vibration will toggle the contacts on and off... at a lightning fast pace... that no other button can replicate.

 This is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY in a game like Halley's Comet... which expects and rewards the player with additional powerups, IF you can maintain a non-stop maximum repeated fire rate.  The game punished you, if you ease up.   Trying to play this game with a microswitch button.. will result in really extreme fatigue, within less than 3 minutes worth of gameplay.

 In the case of Track and Field.. I believe you need to time your button presses, with the onscreen movement of the characters animations.  That, or at minimum... need to have each button press.. be pressed alternatively, with the exact same timings apart.  Meaning, equally on and off,  in their alternative pressing and releasing (perfect timings).

 Even without Feathering.. the Leaf buttons do not have a heavy spring resistance like Microswitches have... thus, it makes it much easier to repeatedly press them rapidly.. and at a much higher rate of repeatability.

[Xiaou2]

Part 2:   Dual Analog Steering

Ive read that some people have trouble controlling Pot based steering games.. when using a Spinner.  I have not tried, as my spinner (and other controllers) were stolen.. before I ever got the chance.

IF that is the case... One possible solution, is to have a  Spinner, and a Pot Dial,  stacked vertically.. where they are at a diagonal from each other.

Like this:

[..O......]
[.....O...]

In this way... your hand can reach Either of these Controllers, without anything getting in the way.
Pot based steering mechanisms would be pretty easy to Hack.  Especially if you hacked something like an RC car controller,
that already has a small diameter Dial.. thats also already "Center-Sprung" (springs to the center).

To go even further, might be a custom 3d printed version, where you could adjust the Springs from the top of the Control Panel...
to select from a Center Sprung position... into a Single Direction Sprung position (for Golf and Bat Swinging games,
where you can use the entire pot travel for the axis, rather than half of the axis).


There is yet another design potential that hasnt been created yet... where you could have a Spinner, that can function as
both an Optical device, AND a Center Sprung + Geared POT device.   I came up the the concept a long time ago...
where you basically have a sliding and locking mechanism.. that connects a D-Shaped (d-ended) Spinner shaft, to a rear mounted
mechanism that has a Pot + Gearing + Physical Limiters on it.

 My design was originally meant for a large diameter 360 degree wheel.. mounted for a sit-down style of setup.  However,
no reason why it also couldnt be adapted to a vertically mounted spinner, instead.

 Of course, these type of mechanism would require a decently deep control panel, to house it.

[PL1]

1. Is the ULITIMATE I/O and possible a U-HID the right way to go .. They are so expensive (comparatively) but if things just work, then it's money well spent

It could be, depending on the details of what controls and features you want.

This is where the part of the FAQ that I linked to earlier comes in handy.
- Work your way through that step-by-step design process and you'll develop a list of controls and inputs.
- Once you have that list, you can start to figure out what encoders you'll need for those controls and inputs.

If you've got to have RGB LED buttons that light up to show what controls are active for a given game, the Ult. I/O (combination encoder and LED controller) makes sense.

If you don't need the fancy per-game LED lighting, you can get an IPac2 for a lot less.

(I have created 2 spinners from rotary encoders, which work well and I am yet to add a trackball (undecided if I should use the expensive 3" Ultimarc one or get a cheapy 2" version for less than half of the price.

The Ult. I/O and IPac2 can both handle a trackball and one spinner. (a total of 3 optical axes)

If you want a trackball and two spinners (a total of 4 optical axes), you'll need at least one other optical (mouse) encoder.

The 3" UTrak is WAY better quality and resolution than the cheap 2" one.  The UTrak is far easier to install on a wood panel and is plug-and-play with the Ult. I/O or IPac2.

3. I am connecting an awful lot of USB peripherals to my gaming pc (Lightguns x 2, rotary encoders/steering wheels/spinners (at least 2 maybe 3), foot pedals (gas pedals if you're American) , an additional joystick for a shifter (as it works better than the dedicated shifter I bought)

For that many USB controls and encoders, you may want a powered USB hub.

Use the design process mentioned above to sort through and organize it all.  After you develop the full detailed list of controls, inputs, and input types, we can look at possible overlaps like the Missile Command buttons.

Over the years, lots of guys have tried to make "one cab to play them all".  None of them have ever succeeded.

More control types leads to more design compromises and more difficulty pulling it off.

The closer you can get to a short game list that requires minimal types of controls, the more likely you are to end up with a good setup.


Scott

[tk007b]

Thanks everyone (this forum was such a brilliant find - really appreciate your input)

I'll try to answer all points above, in this post, so here goes ..

1. Track and Field, i had an unusual skill in the arcade and could make my player run at almost full speed (my trick was to very lightly press each button, so that the press barely registered and then concentrated on pure speed). I acknowledge the comments about timing but can't figure out how I could get it right in the arcade but not at home, with the same button pressing action .. more to experiment with. Unfortunately, the game does two things I really struggle with:
a. My Player/Athlete  runs if I only press one button repeatedly (clearly this is just wrong) .. I've tried different ROMS and different emulators without getting this to stop happening. I'll keep trying.
b.  I've noticed that my player runs super quickly initially, when I press both buttons quickly, and then it's like the game thinks I'm cheating, so slows him down,  both annoying as I want to replicate my skill (or try to in my advancing years) ;-) I do still need to listen to BadMouth's suggestions - MAME's default dead zone is 30%!, reduce it to zero or near zero AND Increase saturation to 1 (100%).

2. Digital 'gas' pedals. I've managed to get Super Sprint working and it worked fine .. and I'll try it with Time Crisis 5 (which needs 2 pedals, unlike previous TC games) .. This makes perfect sense for my coffee table solution, with the middle section of the table reserved for all analogue equipment, such as  Logitech's G29 steering, pedals and shifter.  Maybe a flight stick in this section of the table too, if space allows and I get into flight sim games as I read I can use an analogue pedal in place of a digital ones, so using Outrun on my G29 set up should work too.  Just a case of trial and error for now.

3. In regards to the Ultimate IO and U-HID, I need one trackball and two spinners as a minimum. I might install a 4PDT switch, to change between a control panel spinner and one of my super sprint steering wheels (but that's still 3). Given your comments about the 3" trackball, I might get the Ultimate IO and the ultimarc trackball and hold off the U-HID unless I need it in the future. The console specific LED facility is an attractive option, so I might get the ultimate IO solution and then get the RGB lights in the future. For now, I will use fixed coloured LED lights/buttons  in an Xbox layout.

4. Lastly, I am very conscious about my LOTR "One console to rule them all" solution but so far things seems to work so I'll stick with it until I hit a wall I cannot climb.

Technical issues so far are fairly small:

1. Super Sprint, I have to disable my mouse, as all other spinners get assigned to P1, P2 and P3 steering wheels (otherwise my mouse changes to P1 steering wheel, which is not what I want) .. I am not sure of a way to make MAME ignore my standard mouse and use the other HID devices .. so minor inconvenience.
2. Getting the buttons to work,  EXACTLY as intended, for Track & Field .. again only one game so not a biggie.
3. Switching between an 8 way and a 4 way controller. However, as I'm using a joystick for a gear shifter, I could put a 4 way restricting plate on that (instead of a 2 way which I currently have) and make it into a gear shifter/4 way joystick ??

I will of course use a powered hub and will turn off USB power to lightguns and spinners etc until needed but it's all looking very doable .. (he says)

Still full of naive optimism ... for now .. as you can see ;-)

Thanks again to all :-)

TK

Oh and PS - That Pinball controller looks amazing too :-)

[BadMouth]

4. Lastly, I am very conscious about my LOTR "One console to rule them all" solution but so far things seems to work so I'll stick with it until I hit a wall I cannot climb.

Plan on building and using a mock-up before building the real thing.

1. Super Sprint, I have to disable my mouse, as all other spinners get assigned to P1, P2 and P3 steering wheels (otherwise my mouse changes to P1 steering wheel, which is not what I want) .. I am not sure of a way to make MAME ignore my standard mouse and use the other HID devices .. so minor inconvenience.

If multi-mouse is enabled in MAME, then MAME should only respond to the spinner that you mapped for that control.
Check to see that the ini folder isn't write protected, but that is probably not it or the other mappings would not stay.
Some UIs in an attempt to be helpful automatically write controls to the ini file (overwriting what you actually want).
It could also be the non-official MAME build that you are using behaves differently than the official MAME build.
I am not familiar with Retrobat.

I'd recommend at least testing with the standalone official MAME build to rule out issues caused by the UI and non-standard MAME. https://www.mamedev.org/release.php

[tk007b]

Thanks @BadMouth

Plan on building and using a mock-up before building the real thing.

Absolutely, Where my design may vary from other designs, slightly, is that I plan on having a group of USB switches, that will turn on / off for certain games. If I made 3x arcade machines, I would not have to do this but for now, certainly as far as prototyping is concerned, everything will done on cheapy materials until i'm 100% it will work repeatedly, reliably. It will be interesting to see how far I get with the multi-multi-machine attempt.

I'd recommend at least testing with the standalone official MAME build to rule out issues caused by the UI and non-standard MAME. https://www.mamedev.org/release.php

Again, good advice, I have done just that. In fact:
1. I got a standalone version of MAME 0.279 and loaded it with the roms I am testing.
2. At first the rotary encoders (presenting as HID/Mice) didn't work but once I'd enabled the MULTIMOUSE and set the MOUSE - ON (in Advanced settings), they behaved in the game way as they do in RetroBat, which is as follows:
When I run Super Sprint, it can handle up to 3 user controlled cars at once. When I start the game it automatically assigns the first 3 available mice to the steering for each of the three cars, so if I leave my mouse plugged in (or the trackball, when I get it), then they get randomly assigned.  However, once assigned, I can turn the other mice back on and the settings stay the same until I restart the ROM.

What I would love to do, is to be able properly assign the rotary encoders to the cars, so that it would work correctly no matter what but I need to find someone with fung-fu master levels of MAME knowledge to help me, as just trying to spin the encoder, whilst waiting for an input control, just does not seem to work (unlike button presses). 

Incidentally, there is a input devices table that shows me a bunch of HID devices but just shows zero values and offers to copy the device ID into the keyboard buffer in MAME but I have no clue, which device is which and what, if anything useful, I can do with that..

I have even searched for 3rd party software solutions that allow me to rename the HID devices to more meaningful names, such as Steering Wheel 1, Steering, Wheel 2, Spinner, TrackBall, Mouse etc which would be so much more helpful but sadly without success.

So for now, I switch off everything except the rotary encoders before starting Super Sprint and that goes the trick.

If there is anywhere I can better understand that specific level of "MAME - mouse to controller assigning", I'd be all over it.

One last thing I am planning on doing is to get an G29 or G290 steering Wheel +Shifter set. It will be interesting to see if that analogue set up will be better for Outrun and how it would work with Super Sprint. My hunch, for now, is that Super Sprint will always work best on the free spinning decoders, but I'm happy to be proven otherwise! :-)

Thanks again :-)

TK 

[BadMouth]

In general (at least as of the last time I messed with this stuff), most of the games that had optical encoder wheels that spun endlessly (referred to as 360 degree wheels) do not work well with potentiometer based 270 degree wheels that have endstops. 

The reason is that an optical encoder can tell which direction and how fast it is spinning, but not what direction it is pointed.  It has no center or endstop points to reference except for a few games where a second optical encoder and wheel slot were added to reset center.  As a result when you crash in a game like pole position, wherever the wheel was pointed when you crashed becomes the new center point.  The wreck usually occurs in a sharp turn where the wheel was turned all the way, so now you have to keep the wheel turned all the way to go straight and can't turn any further in that direction.

Some games had DIP switch settings to work with different kinds of wheels and there may be hacks out there, but in general a 270 degree wheel will not work on games that used a 360 degree wheel that can spin endlessly.  Those will play better with a spinner.  I had a nice driving cab and spent a ton of time getting as many games as possible to play.  I never came up with a real solution other than swapping in a different wheel with an optical encoder for the 360 degree games.

There are some hacks out there to go in the other direction and get the 360 degree wheels to play better with the 270 degree games like Outrun.  See the driving cab info thread or ask in the forum what solutions others are using.

[tk007b]

Thank you,

I'll just get the G290 set up and have fun experimenting / comparing but I agree with you and can see the 360 steering wheels just being used for Super Sprint and Championship Sprint (same game, different tracks - A real treat to find if you want Super Sprint freshened up)

Am toying with the idea of having detachable clip on/off steering wheels to keep my rising coffee table / control panel neat and decluttered. More homework needed but my biggest challenge is to see if I can dedicate certain steering wheels to specific rotary encoders, regardless of how many other mice are plugged in (such as Sinden Light guns, a trackball and my main mouse, which all show up as mice in device manager)

Cheers

:-)