Materials: MDF vs. Particleboard?

[DougHillman]

Are there any serious drawbacks to using plain particleboard (sometimes called underlayment) instead of MDF?  I'm building a largish 4-player cab for a friend and would like to keep the weight down as much as possible.  I'm planning on building an internal frame from 2x2"s so strength isn't going to be an issue.   The finish will be some form of vinyl (contact paper), so paintability isn't really going to come into play here either.  

How's the routability of particleboard?  I've routed slots in the edge of some before (such as is needed for T-molding) with no problems, but I haven't done any other routing in that material.  Along those same lines, how well does plain 3/4" plywood router for the T-molding slots?  Plywood should be even lighter than the particleboard, but I'm a little worried about chunks of the layers tearing out when doing the slots.


Thanks.

D

[TalkingOctopus]

I don't have any experience with particle board, but I just wanted to say that some hardware stores sell a light weight MDF in addition to the normal.  However, it is more expensive.  Keep an eye out for that.  My local HomeDepot carried it.

Also, I think that a majority of the weight comes from the monitor, especially if you are going to use a 27".  I built a 4 player cab out of MDF based on Lusid's plan.  When moving around my cab without the TV inside, it is not that heavy - just bulky.  However, once the TV is inside, it barely budges.  I put 3" casters on the bottom, and that greatly helps the mobility of the cab.

good luck!

[Lilwolf]

Also note... it will be TOP heavy... nothing like bumping into it.. and realizing the center of gravity is inside the monitor.... and once it starts to go... it'll keep on going.

Making it so the monitor can be removed easier and safer is a better bet then trying to come up with a different wood type...  (not saying that MDF is the way to go... its just known to work well).

Also consider not going with a 2x2 frame.  Going with woodglue and 1x1's should be enought.  The frame will never be good for much other then holding the joints together.  When completed... your box will be stronger the the internal frame.  And you will probalby not have as nice of joints in the end.

[FractalWalk]

Personally, I would never use particle board. It doesn't adhere to itself very well. So if you ever neeed to remove and replace fasteners, the anchor points start to crumble. In this regard MDF holds up better, plywood even more so.  

As far as "routability", particle board is OK (I use it for my practice cuts). MDF holds a much cleaner edge, but if you will be covering your work with molding or artwork, then you might find particle board an acceptable alternative.

If weight is the over-riding factor, I'd go with plywood. I haven't had much experience with routing plywood, but I would think slots cuts would be no problem.  Cross-cuts might be another story.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I did have a bit of trouble with my T-molding using plywood.
The router bit I used was perfect for 1X, but took out an entire layer of the plywood.
This left the inside radius curves a little loose, but a bit of epoxy tightened them right up.

That said, I would personally recommend a framing/plywood approach.
I don't know that you really need a FULL frame like I built, but I will bet my cabinet outlives me by several generations.
My cabinet has ZERO wobble to it, and would probably withstand direct blows from a sledgehammer on the lower portion where it is heavily framed.
 
If you look at the really old cabinets (Space Invaders Deluxe being the best I've seen), they are built like tanks.
The SID cabinets were actually built out of marine-grade plywood.
I've never seen one of them yet that had the "wobble" inherent in most of the newer cabinets, and they are pretty much immune to water damage on the bottom as well.

[rdagger]

I recently used particle board for the CP of my cab.  The top is Lexan.  I routed out the bottom of the CP to flush mount a trackball with no problems.  I also made several cuts using jig, circular & chop saws with no problems.  It does tend to chip when drilled  or screwed.

[GadgetGeek]

You say particleboard, then talk about underlayment.  I usually think of underlayment as OSB (Oriented strand board) and particle board as basically the same stuff that laminated RTA furniture and countertops are made out of (basically sawdust and glue put together under very high pressure).  I would not use OSB for a cabinet.  Surface it too uneven and contact paper would not look good on it.  Since you are using an internal frame, Particle board should work just fine.  However, because of its composition, corners can get chipped off fairly easy.  MDF machines nicely, but is heavy.  Plywood machines nicely as well but is $$$.  If material cost isn't an issue, cabinet grade plywood (about $45/sheet around here) would be my suggestion.

[2k]

build all my custom cabients out of particle board.. You wouldn't know the difference and its half the price.. Go with particle board. You just have to be a little careful. MDF has almost the same characteristics as particle board. Medium Denisty Fibre... Its just compressed carboard fibers so the whole will become worn out.. Build your cab out of Particle board with 2x2 subframe works like a charm...

[Gamecab]

I liked Particleboard because of the weight but the drawbacks were the fact that it will warp and chip and is also pretty weak.  My First cabinet was a lucid cab that I made from 5/8 PB and stuck in my basement.  Without a dehumidifier the boards started to bend and sag after about a year.  I then started to use MDF and was impressed by the weight and density of the wood.  I also noticed that I had to replace my saw blades more often.  MDF really looks nice and smooth and it paints up even better.  The New 1UP Cab I built is made from MDF has shown no signs of warping at all.

[paigeoliver]

Plywood, plywood, plywood, plywood.

MDF and particle board cabinets fall apart over time.

MDF and particle board cabinets are insanely heavy.

MDF and particle board cabinets soak up water like a sponge. Get them good and wet one time and they are a goner.

Have you ever bought any of that furniture at the store that you put together yourself? Ever notice how that stuff self destructs over time? Meanwhile 30-90 year old furniture made of plywood just holds up FOREVER.

Plywood cabinets are very sturdy, and will likely outlive you.

Plywood cabinets are light and easy to move.

If you take the innards out of a plywood cabinet, then you can turn the hose on it, with no damage at all. Plywood cabinets can even survive long periods of time relatively exposed to the weather.

[SpamMe]

I wanted to use ply for my cabinet but, at the time,  MDF was about 1/2 the price  

[Minwah]

Plywood gives you some nasty splinters if you're not careful too  

Seriously tho my cab is the first bit of woodwork I've attempted since school, and really I think it is quite a major project for a complete novice.  I did make 1 piece from plywood, and although I found it quite easy to work with I found MDF (which I made the rest of the cab with) a lot easier.

So my point being depending on your woodworking skill this may determine what you use.  Personally I wouldn't use particle board (or chip board as we British call it) - I think it's horrible stuff  

[nipsmg]

If you decide to use particle board:

MAKE SURE YOU USE AT LEAST 1x1's to fasten the boards together.  DON'T screw one piece of particleboard directly into another.  Yeah it might initially hold but it will EASILY come apart on you.  Trust me.  I did that.. Half of my cabinet is still that way, and I'm seriously thinking about getting 1x1's and going back inside it and reinforcing the boards again.  it can be a NIGHTMARE otherwise.

--NipsMG

[Wade]

Use MDF (my recommendation) or Plywood!

MDF:
Cuts well (clean and doesn't chip)
Perfect surface (for painted or decals)
Routes well
Holds screws well
Heaviest
Good price

Plywood:
Cuts okay (can chip and splinter)
Good surface (not usually perfect)
Routes okay (but can chip and splinter)
Relatively light
Holds screws well
The better stuff is very expensive

Particle board:
Cuts okay
Fair surface (not very good for paint or decals)
Routes okay
Chips and breaks easily
WON'T hold screws
Pretty heavy
Cheapest


Also, I expected MDF to be worse with water, but I got rain on one of my pieces and it was undetectable.  Also left some scrap outside for weeks in the rain and it did expand slightly, but it was still perfectly smooth and still strong.  It probably depends on the quality of MDF, mine held up surprisingly well.  I don't think some of the old cabinets held up so well, probably were cheaper MDF.  Plywood will be better, but I have also seen plywood delaminating on older games.  IMO, water isn't a big concern for these cabinets because they will never be on location and I'd bet that 99% of these home built cabinets will be voluntarily destroyed in the next 20 years.  Vs. a classic game that actually holds value to a lot of people and if in good condition, will usually find someone to preserve it.

Wade

[bionicbadger]

Also note... it will be TOP heavy... nothing like bumping into it.. and realizing the center of gravity is inside the monitor.... and once it starts to go... it'll keep on going.

Making it so the monitor can be removed easier and safer is a better bet then trying to come up with a different wood type...  (not saying that MDF is the way to go... its just known to work well).

Also consider not going with a 2x2 frame.  Going with woodglue and 1x1's should be enought.  The frame will never be good for much other then holding the joints together.  When completed... your box will be stronger the the internal frame.  And you will probalby not have as nice of joints in the end.

Build it strong and to last.  I used 2x4 framing/bracing in my cabinet and I KNOW its strong.  It has zero wobble, even if you lean on it.  If you are going to build something, build it right, don't try to save $10 and have something doesn't feel solid.  When my friend and I are hammering on the controls, I don't want the cabinet to wobble.

[DougHillman]

I'd just like to say, "Thanks for nothing."  Heheheh.  

Pretty good cases for and against each type of material, and reports by folks who've successfully made cabinets of each.

I'm still fairly undecided, but I'll discuss the pros/cons with the guy I'm building it for later this week and make a decision then.

Thanks everyone, for your comments.

D  

[_Iz-]

It's impossible to paint particleboard and have it look good. Only use particleboard if you're covering it with laminate. If you're painting use MDF or birch plywood for best results.

[Lilwolf]

Quick note on framing.

I don't believe there is a single arcade machine ever built with framing.   And they are ALL designed to be leaned on.  

Anyway... get 1x1's and take your cut sidepanel.  Glue and screw (from the inside) the 1x1s  3/4 of an inch away from the edge (or however thick your panels are).  In the end it will be VERY strong in the end.  

Its a much more elegant solution...

I am usually someone who overbuilds EVERYTHING (my last desk I could jump up and down on)... but I'm trying to figure out what each part is there for and not just overbuild everything on the hopes that I over do it.

[DougHillman]

Anyway... get 1x1's and take your cut sidepanel.  Glue and screw (from the inside) the 1x1s  3/4 of an inch away from the edge (or however thick your panels are).  In the end it will be VERY strong in the end.  

This is actually what I've done with my own cabinet.  We're going with a larger TV for my friends though.  I've seen both particleboard & MDF tear out in the past so have been a bit worried about the weight of a 27" TV over time either causing warping or ripping out.  

I'm really just planning on framing the bottom half for monitor support and doing the rest as you suggested.

[nipsmg]

It's impossible to paint particleboard and have it look good. Only use particleboard if you're covering it with laminate. If you're painting use MDF or birch plywood for best results.

VERY untrue.

Get a VERY GOOD Primer/Sealer.  Use multiple coats. WAIT THE SPECIFIED TIME UNTIL DRY and take into account the temperature and humidity.  Multiple coats of paint. Lightly sand between coats.  It WILL come out beautiful if you do it right and actually wait a proper length of time in between coats.

--NipsMG

[_Iz-]

It's impossible to paint particleboard and have it look good. Only use particleboard if you're covering it with laminate. If you're painting use MDF or birch plywood for best results.

VERY untrue.

Get a VERY GOOD Primer/Sealer.  Use multiple coats. WAIT THE SPECIFIED TIME UNTIL DRY and take into account the temperature and humidity.  Multiple coats of paint. Lightly sand between coats.  It WILL come out beautiful if you do it right and actually wait a proper length of time in between coats.

--NipsMG

You'll spend more on the paint and primer and effort to make particleboard look good than it would have cost to use MDF and 1 or 2 coats of average paint...

Considering the small cost difference between particleboard and MDF is it worth the hassle?

[DougHillman]

You'll spend more on the paint and primer and effort to make particleboard look good than it would have cost to use MDF and 1 or 2 coats of average paint...

Considering the small cost difference between particleboard and MDF is it worth the hassle?

If it'll save a buncha pounds offa the weight, possibly.

[_Iz-]

You'll spend more on the paint and primer and effort to make particleboard look good than it would have cost to use MDF and 1 or 2 coats of average paint...

Considering the small cost difference between particleboard and MDF is it worth the hassle?

If it'll save a buncha pounds offa the weight, possibly.

If you're truely concerned about the weight then don't use MDF or Particleboard, use a good smooth plywood, like birch.

PS, I'm a professional cabinetmaker, I've been one for almost 20 years now. I have extensive personal experience with these materials we are discussing. If it were my decision I would not use particleboard unless it was being covered in laminate. Period.

MDF is easy to work with, fairly cheap and the faces paint up very nicely. Downside: It's HEAVY!

Plywood is relatively expensive, even more so for decent quality stuff that won't delaminate or have surface voids.  It's not quite as nice to work with as MDF but still pretty decent. It's relatively light compared to MDF and is quite strong.