Critique on Control Panel Design

[madruk20]

Hey guys I'm in the process of finalizing designing a control panel for a 4P arcade pedestal but I'm fairly inexperienced.  I've read what I hope is mostly good information but I'd like to get your guys opinion. 

4 Player Pedestal:

-Players 1-2, 8 buttons (classics, 90s-2000s arcade games, steam and some console games) with servos for 4 and 8 way attached

-Players 3-4, 6 buttons (same as above, minus servos)

-1 Trackball between P1 and P2 (trackball games golden tee, rampart etc)

-2 Spinners push/pull (from Thundersticks for spinner + some driving games) placed above button 3 on Player 1 and 2.  The idea being you can rest your arm between the joystick and buttons or the trackball and buttons and use the P1 or P2 buttons as needed instead of dedicated buttons near the spinners. In some cases you can probably just use the push/pull function and ignore the P1 and P2 buttons entirely.

-1 Stream deck for administrative buttons and player coin/start, as well as shortcuts to games.

-Joysticks all angled up and buttons placed to put P3 and P4 on either side of the panel

-2 Cup holder cuts which will more than likely just be for putting random stuff in instead of drinks

-All joysticks 360 Ultimarcs with restrictors/mapping as necessary for whatever game being played.

-Goldleaf RGB buttons for lighting specific buttons used in games, with black caps.

-Maybe light guns/star wars yoke later.

-We have kids and other arcade junky friends that come over so 3P and 4P WILL be used.  I figure even if it gets to the point it doesn't I can commandeer P3 and P4 and maybe use them as flight sticks/ikari warrior setup or something.  2P's spinner is also conveniently close to 4P's joystick for a possible Tron setup.

A few questions:

1.  With a stream deck all the player start/coin/exit/pause buttons etc seem redundant if you have one.  Is there any reason to keep these buttons that I'm not seeing?
2.  I like this particular angled pedestal base because it looks like if you want to sit down you can at least rest your feet on it, vs just having it straight.  The only thing I don't like is it seems like might be a little top heavy or unstable (and also chipping the pedestal base with your feet).  Does anyone have experience with this type of pedestal base?
3.  Is it worth putting in pinball buttons for this type of pedestal?  Or at the very least playable?  From most designs it looks like the buttons are usually more far apart (30" about it looks like?) than they would be for a normal pinball machine.  I'm going through a third party (GRS) to make the pedestal, so making them closer together probably wont be possible.
4. For the spinners I'm reading some have higher dpi than others (for example Thunderstick's push/pull spinner is something like 1000 dpi and Ultimarcs is 1200). Does this matter for these games?  Thunderstick's push/pull spinner is the only one reasonably priced unless you go for a $130 one that is 1200 dpi from another site I was looking at).

Control Panel: https://imgur.com/a/aY1XLab

Angled Pedestal: https://imgur.com/a/QMu1Wlg

Thanks for any help!

[javeryh]

Personally, I think you are trying to do way too much with one panel. What 4P games even use 6 buttons? What games use 2 spinners (driving games are not fun with spinners, IMO). Everyone starts out like this (myself included) - it's a rite of passage to try and build some behemoth setup just in case you want to play some obscure game with funky controls sometime in the future. You should ask yourself "what games do I want to play?" and design around that. If the answer is "all of them" or "as many as possible" then you should rethink it.

Most of us end up scrapping projects like this altogether or parting it out in a few years to build something more streamlined. I can't tell you the amount of questions I get from friends and family on how to work one of my single player cabinets that has 1 joystick and a couple of buttons. A 4P cabinet with all of those buttons and controls would make their heads explode.

Of course, there are some great 4P cabs around here so don't let me discourage you but I'd seriously play test your idea before committing to it. Make a mock-up out of scrap or something. Even cardboard works.   

[PL1]

Glad to see that you kept P3 and P4 joysticks straight.   

Did you go through the design process in the FAQ?
https://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/FAQ#What_type_of_build_meets_my_needs.3F

It sounds like you may be trying to include too many games in step 2 resulting in too many controls in step 4 for an ergonomically comfortable layout.
- The spinners look like they would be uncomfortable.  Have you made a cardboard mockup to test this?
- Are you sure that there's enough separation between the trackball and P1's buttons/P2's joystick? (footprint and ergonomics)

-2 Cup holder cuts which will more than likely just be for putting random stuff in instead of drinks

If you include them, they will probably end up being used for drinks.

If they are used for drinks, there is a chance that there will be spills.

Is it worth that risk?

-Goldleaf RGB buttons for lighting specific buttons used in games, with black caps.

Are you sure the juice is worth the squeeze on this?

RGB buttons add a lot of expense, wiring, and configuration compared to non-RGB buttons.

How many buttons will your LED controller handle?

1.  With a stream deck all the player start/coin/exit/pause buttons etc seem redundant if you have one.  Is there any reason to keep these buttons that I'm not seeing?

The stream deck is not a large device so Coin and Start for the 4 players will be very close to Pause and Exit.

During vigorous multi-player gameplay jostling, it would be very easy to accidently fat-finger Exit.

3.  Is it worth putting in pinball buttons for this type of pedestal?  Or at the very least playable?  From most designs it looks like the buttons are usually more far apart (30" about it looks like?) than they would be for a normal pinball machine.  I'm going through a third party (GRS) to make the pedestal, so making them closer together probably wont be possible.

I would not recommend trying to put pinball buttons on this pedestal due to the width, the angled base box (buttons would have to be as far back as the P3/P4 joysticks), and the overhang of the control panel.

4. For the spinners I'm reading some have higher dpi than others (for example Thunderstick's push/pull spinner is something like 1000 dpi and Ultimarcs is 1200). Does this matter for these games?  Thunderstick's push/pull spinner is the only one reasonably priced unless you go for a $130 one that is 1200 dpi from another site I was looking at).

The ergonomics of your setup are a greater concern than the dpi.


Scott

[madruk20]

Personally, I think you are trying to do way too much with one panel. What 4P games even use 6 buttons? What games use 2 spinners (driving games are not fun with spinners, IMO). Everyone starts out like this (myself included) - it's a rite of passage to try and build some behemoth setup just in case you want to play some obscure game with funky controls sometime in the future. You should ask yourself "what games do I want to play?" and design around that. If the answer is "all of them" or "as many as possible" then you should rethink it.

Most of us end up scrapping projects like this altogether or parting it out in a few years to build something more streamlined. I can't tell you the amount of questions I get from friends and family on how to work one of my single player cabinets that has 1 joystick and a couple of buttons. A 4P cabinet with all of those buttons and controls would make their heads explode.

Of course, there are some great 4P cabs around here so don't let me discourage you but I'd seriously play test your idea before committing to it. Make a mock-up out of scrap or something. Even cardboard works.   

I was thinking it would be fun to play games like Shredders Revenge and Castle Crashers 4P, and they all take 6 buttons.  Actually looking at the list there seems like there would be a TON of good PC/Console games that would translate well to the arcade play style with 6 buttons.  Is it really bad to play these games as P3 and P4 and thats why people don't like it?  I get the adding too many things ruins the overall gameplay if the controls are awkward, but addng 2 more buttons doesn't seem like it would do that would it?

I was planning on using the marquee sides on the display and the lighted buttons to display control setups (at least for the games regularly used). If I'm bein honest most of the people that are going to use it are pretty hardcore gamers and wouldnt have a problem figuring out the controls in a couple minutes with or without direction.

[madruk20]

Did you go through the design process in the FAQ?
https://wiki.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/FAQ#What_type_of_build_meets_my_needs.3F

Uhhh may have glanced over it I'll read it more now!

If you include them, they will probably end up being used for drinks.
If they are used for drinks, there is a chance that there will be spills.
Is it worth that risk?

Haha yea I'll probably regret it.

Are you sure the juice is worth the squeeze on this?

RGB buttons add a lot of expense, wiring, and configuration compared to non-RGB buttons.

How many buttons will your LED controller handle?

Yeah I'm good with the extra wiring work/expense and like the look of the buttons.  I've actually bought some parts already and a cheap player console to mess with this stuff so I've been able to wire and get everything to work.  Right now I have one ultimarc ultimate IPAC and that handles 32 buttons, so if I forgo the pinball, player start, and coin buttons I could fit everything on one board I think.

The stream deck is not a large device so Coin and Start for the 4 players will be very close to Pause and Exit.

There's 3 rows so you can space them out fairly well.   I was thinking of even putting the deck up higher than I showed just in case there's some overzealous golden tee player or something.  But I think you'd have to REALLY try to hit the particular exit button (to the point where it looks suspicious if you're losing the game lol).  With my current setup on the stream deck the top row 4 buttons are P1-4 start, second row is coin, and then the third row has exit, pause, etc with exit being the last button on the right so plenty of space between the two or the ability to rearrange if there's a problem.  The only thing I could see them fat fingering maybe is starting a different player or coin on accident.

The ergonomics of your setup are a greater concern than the dpi.

Can you go into more detail about this? Do you mean how the player would control the spinners?  From what I've been testing on my mockup it seems fairly comfortable how I want to play it.  So the dpi doesn't make that much of a difference?

I was on the fence already about using the spinners as steering wheels to begin with because using a completely flat steering wheel looks awkward.  But I really wanted to at least play 2P Warlords since my friends and I used to play it alot.  The other spinner games like Tempest, Arkanoid a big bonus since I enjoyed those too.

[Ond]

Sounds you've already made up your mind to build this, what opinions would be useful?  No comment on the controls stuff. The PCB artwork could be simplified a bit or maybe matched more with the control sets.

[PL1]

The ergonomics of your setup are a greater concern than the dpi.

Can you go into more detail about this? Do you mean how the player would control the spinners?  From what I've been testing on my mockup it seems fairly comfortable how I want to play it.  So the dpi doesn't make that much of a difference?

As I mentioned earlier, the spinners look like they would be uncomfortable.
- Can you rest your arm on the panel without hitting buttons/joysticks or do you have to hover?
- Have you tested the spinners with the panel at the same height/angle that the pedestal's panel will be at?
- Have you tested them while standing and sitting?
- Have you tested the spinners during extended play sessions?
- Have you had other people try them to see how they like the layout?

Arkanoid has the highest transitions-per-rotation of any spinner game so if the spinner works well with Arkanoid, it will work well with the other games once you adjust the sensitivity.


Scott

[BadMouth]

I did the curved button layout with convex buttons on my cab because it looks better and more modern, but if I had it to do over again I'd do the plain straight 6 street fighter layout with concave buttons.
I find myself looking down at my hands more often to reposition my fingers which never happened with my old X-Arcade tankstick.  I wouldn't call it a mistake to do a curved layout, but that is my experience with it.  The concave buttons will no doubt help.

MAME assumes the buttons are layed out like:
123
456

So when using 8 buttons wire them like:
1237
4568

and you'll have much less button mapping to do.
For the four button games like Neo Geo and Techmo fighting games, I found that I prefer using my thumb to hit the first button in the bottom row instead of reaching for that last one in the top row or having them arranged in a square.

I'll pile on concerning the spinner location.  I'd put them directly above P1 & P2 joysticks where you can lay your wrist next to the joystick with some room to spare and the buttons will still feel like they are in a proper position while playing.  Maybe align the trackball with them.  People don't usually hit their hands on anything that is directly to the sides of the trackball, but possibly could if they are forward of it.

My cupholder usually has USB dongles or flash drives in it, but I do enjoy using it for drinks as well.   

Best course of action is always a cardboard mockup.

[BadMouth]

Looking at it again, you will probably need more clearance between the trackball and P1 buttons for the trackball housing.

[madruk20]

Thanks! I'm going to try your positions above the P1-2 sticks as well and see how it works.  I'll also try a more lengthy session like PL1 suggested with the other variables.  We really only rolled with it for about 20-30 minutes playing some of the games and it seemed ok, but yeah more testing required.  For alot of these spinner games I can't see us playing for more than 1-2 hours at a time so I figure if we can pass that test we should be ok.

I grew up on the straight button layout probably like alot of people did, I made them curved because yeah everyone is saying thats the best ergonomic way.  I guess another thing to test...

Thanks for the wiring tips too.  I'll take a closer look at the trackball but it seemed ok when I used it.  If the spinners end up above the joysticks they should be even more out of the way.  The P1 buttons are definitely close when you use 8.  I think I'd have to either just deal with it or make P1 and 2 six buttons since I'm pretty sure they won't extend the length of the control panel.

Does anyone have any thoughts/experience on the angled pedestal base?  Is it stable enough in that shape?  I like the look of it and being able to put your feet in some if you're sitting down (I'm a tall dude 6'2"), but not at the expense of it possibly tipping over lol..

[madruk20]

I think after some testing I'm going to roll with 6 buttons for P1 and 2, and experiment with the 7th button Neo Geo style tomorrow.  I honestly didnt like having to rest my pinky on the very far buttons when playing.  The spinners above the joysticks work great the problem is you run into a "wall" trying to use the trackball in the direction of P2 with the joystick and spinner if you're very aggressive (I think you mentioned this already).

If I put the spinners about 1 1/2" above the top row button 2 on either side it gives you room to put your wrist between the joystick and buttons to reach the spinner on your left hand, and then use button 2 + 3 as needed with your right wrist resting on the open space between the P1 buttons and trackball and and for P2 the P2 buttons and open space.  Works fairly well standing or sitting.  We played about 2 hourish off and on and I didn't feel any discomfort so I might have found our sweet spot    Even played Ikari Warriors fairly well using the spinner push button for fire and grenade for pull!  This also gives you around a 120 degree angle to go ham on the trackball without hitting anything.  When I say ham I mean throwing your wrist in a ridiculous dramatic fashion so I think the distance is ok for average use.

The issue with doing 7 buttons is your left wrist more than likely will rest on the 7th button reaching the spinner if its drilled in the normal style i see usually (with it being a thumb button), so I guess I'll have to see if thats tolerable.  I'm going to drill a small straight hole mockup for P1, P2, and the trackball/spinners to try it tomm.

[BadMouth]

While I don't like the appearance of 8 buttons and rarely use my 7th button, if you are going to be heavy on the PC/Steam games you may still want that many.

It's been a long time, but IIRC Mortal Kombat X required me to map 8 buttons before exiting the button mapping screen so I had to temporarily jump an extra button wire because I only had 7.  The mapping was for a combo or something that wasn't needed to play, but I couldn't exit without mapping all the action buttons.  IIRC Castle Crashers also used all the buttons.  Although I installed them I eventually quit playing anything that required more than 3 buttons (outside of fighting games) because it didn't feel very arcade-y.

This was a long time ago when the games first came out, there might be workarounds now.

[javeryh]

I just got glasses so maybe I'm way off but that rectangle above the trackball is not centered on the trackball.

[madruk20]

Ha yeah its definitely off, that's just a mockup though of the panel not actual dimensions (I hope).

While I don't like the appearance of 8 buttons and rarely use my 7th button, if you are going to be heavy on the PC/Steam games you may still want that many.

It's been a long time, but IIRC Mortal Kombat X required me to map 8 buttons before exiting the button mapping screen so I had to temporarily jump an extra button wire because I only had 7.  The mapping was for a combo or something that wasn't needed to play, but I couldn't exit without mapping all the action buttons.  IIRC Castle Crashers also used all the buttons.  Although I installed them I eventually quit playing anything that required more than 3 buttons (outside of fighting games) because it didn't feel very arcade-y.

This was a long time ago when the games first came out, there might be workarounds now.

Yeah I'm still messing with it but 8 buttons really throws off the spinner setup as well depending on how you use it.  If you have 8 you cant rest your right wrist/arm very well while sitting, but I think I'd rarely sit down to play spinner games to begin with.  Trying to play Arkanoid/Tempest sitting even when the spinner was placed "perfectly" drove me nuts 

Definitely can feel the difference in precision between the Spintrak and the GRS push/pull too.