mini-itx, is the move worth it?

[osiris]

 HI all,

I have a mini-arcade cab i built myself (almost done, minus finished marquee, side art, and plexi).  my problem is that right now the whole thing is run from outside of the cab by a 800mhz p3 box, which is ugly, and quite noisy.

Im pretty happy with the preformance though, slowdown seldom occurs, and if it does, it occurs pretty much when i remember there being slowdown at the arcade.  

Happy that is until i started thinking about mini-itx for the job, although im a pretty big nerd, Ive never used one, and dont really know how fast they run.  

my current system specs are :
800mhz p3
348megs of ram that i had laying around
geforce 4 pci out of a scraped project

so nothing too special, just wondering what kind of mini-itx would give me similar or slightly better preformance (integrated graphics with rca out a plus, im using a 19"tv that suites my needs perfectly )

Thanks

[Jakobud]

I don't 'think' the mini-itx will give better performance.  The 1ghz mini-itx cyrix-ish chip is equivalent in speed to about a p3-450mhz... Would be ideal for classics though.

[Edgedamage]

Check here:
http://neogeo.orntar.net/

He has neo geo games running. I have talked with him through PM's and he says his games run silky smooth.

[rampy]

I don't 'think' the mini-itx will give better performance.  The 1ghz mini-itx cyrix-ish chip is equivalent in speed to about a p3-450mhz... Would be ideal for classics though.

Jakobud... I'm curious as to how you arrived at that figure.  I know cyrix stuff in the past has been lagging, and yes intel stuff had the fast FPU performance at comprable clockspeeds... but I'm pretty sure these "new" mini-itx via boards perform at comprable "flops" as an intel/AMD counterpart at the same clockspeed.

I don't have one in my possesion yet to give you actual benchmarks... but eventually I will (and will put em a review on  Build your own PVR/HTPC community site)

planetjay has one (the via epia m10000 I beleive) and his opinion anecdotally was that it was as fast as a comprably clocked intel/amd system... not to put text in pj's er... mouth... (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm off the mark)

To the original poster, does your TV have svideo inputs (the mini-itx via epia m10000 does have both rca video out as well as svideo so I'm not sure why I ask)?

Now Transmeta chips are a different story... I've gota  1ghz one of those and was a little dissapointed in the MAME performance on it...

What was the question again?  

rampy

[osiris]

I don't 'think' the mini-itx will give better performance.  The 1ghz mini-itx cyrix-ish chip is equivalent in speed to about a p3-450mhz... Would be ideal for classics though.

To the original poster, does your TV have svideo inputs (the mini-itx via epia m10000 does have both rca video out as well as svideo so I'm not sure why I ask)?

No, my tv is an older 19" toshiba(dont know the model number) that i picked up at a pawn shop for cheap, it has composit video, and mono sound in. While it sounds weak,  the cab is pretty small and running the sound and video through it "feels" right,  and no one playing has complained yet.

[Jakobud]

I don't 'think' the mini-itx will give better performance.  The 1ghz mini-itx cyrix-ish chip is equivalent in speed to about a p3-450mhz... Would be ideal for classics though.

Jakobud... I'm curious as to how you arrived at that figure.  I know cyrix stuff in the past has been lagging, and yes intel stuff had the fast FPU performance at comprable clockspeeds... but I'm pretty sure these "new" mini-itx via boards perform at comprable "flops" as an intel/AMD counterpart at the same clockspeed.

I don't have one in my possesion yet to give you actual benchmarks... but eventually I will (and will put em a review on  Build your own PVR/HTPC community site)

planetjay has one (the via epia m10000 I beleive) and his opinion anecdotally was that it was as fast as a comprably clocked intel/amd system... not to put text in pj's er... mouth... (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm off the mark)

To the original poster, does your TV have svideo inputs (the mini-itx via epia m10000 does have both rca video out as well as svideo so I'm not sure why I ask)?

Now Transmeta chips are a different story... I've gota  1ghz one of those and was a little dissapointed in the MAME performance on it...

What was the question again?  

rampy

Ah thats interesting and encouraging to hear.  I was gonna use one in a Mame cab a while back but decided against it when I heard how slow people claimed they were.  Maybe i'll have to revisit that idea... I'd love to see some benchmarks on them.

[Trenchbroom]

I've been thinking of buying a mini-ITX for a cocktail cabinet project and was curious if anyone has any experience with them in the hot confines of a cocktail cab.  I figured that they would be perfect just to screw down on the bottom of the cocktail.  

How are they for heat--do they overheat at all?

[civic83]

I have one of the older "eden" 533mhz itx boards, it has no fan, and runs about comparable to my old p3 600 rig when paired with the same amount of ram.  The video is quite lacking for mainstream pc games but it runs mame ok (all but the newer fighters it seems, which i dont play anyways...)

I think that these boards can't be beat for small minicade style machines

[Jakobud]

I've been thinking of buying a mini-ITX for a cocktail cabinet project and was curious if anyone has any experience with them in the hot confines of a cocktail cab.  I figured that they would be perfect just to screw down on the bottom of the cocktail.  

How are they for heat--do they overheat at all?

The boards would work very well in that situation.  Most of them (except the high end ones) are totally fanless and have extremely low power requirements and they do not run very hot at all.  VIA prides the mini-itx boards as needing very little power and being extremely quiet or totally silent and that they run cool.  I very seriously doubt you would run into any heat issues at all.

[planetjay]

I don't 'think' the mini-itx will give better performance.  The 1ghz mini-itx cyrix-ish chip is equivalent in speed to about a p3-450mhz... Would be ideal for classics though.

Jakobud... I'm curious as to how you arrived at that figure.  I know cyrix stuff in the past has been lagging, and yes intel stuff had the fast FPU performance at comprable clockspeeds... but I'm pretty sure these "new" mini-itx via boards perform at comprable "flops" as an intel/AMD counterpart at the same clockspeed.

I don't have one in my possesion yet to give you actual benchmarks... but eventually I will (and will put em a review on  Build your own PVR/HTPC community site)

planetjay has one (the via epia m10000 I beleive) and his opinion anecdotally was that it was as fast as a comprably clocked intel/amd system... not to put text in pj's er... mouth... (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm off the mark)

To the original poster, does your TV have svideo inputs (the mini-itx via epia m10000 does have both rca video out as well as svideo so I'm not sure why I ask)?

Now Transmeta chips are a different story... I've gota  1ghz one of those and was a little dissapointed in the MAME performance on it...

What was the question again?  

rampy

I haven't ran any benchmarks, but my M10000 Seems almost as fast as my Athalon 1700+.

I may test MAME on it one day and see what plays and what doesn't.

[maraxle]

I have an 800 mhz one and it runs like a 600-700 mhz P3.  The one thing I don't like is that the s-video out is mediocre quality.  I bought a PCI NVidia card to replace it.  Other than that, it works well and I can run it on a mere 55 watt power supply.

[Dr. Creep]

I had a via m10000 in my cocktail, but the onboard sound went dead.  I replaced it w/ a athlon XP 2400+ when I found a nice combo deal from a local computer shop.  The motherboard/CPU/fans actually ended up being about the same price as my Mini-ITX, and I haven't experienced any heat problems so far.  

The Mini-itx could handle pretty much everything up through the Neo Geo games, as well as Nintendo games.  Only when you get to some of the more recent games will you see a problem.  I remember specifically that Narc was a problem, going far too slow to really be playable.  

The mini-itx boards are neat, but unless you are really low on space (a bar-top unit, for example), I'd just stick with a regular motherboard/cpu combo, if you can fit it in the machine.  Micro-ATX boards are also a decent option, giving you more processor choices and still pretty small.

[Edgedamage]

Here's a cool idea wire a mini itx up to a jamma edge connector. Have a upright machine and a cocktail and a wall mount jukebox that have jamma connectors in them when you want to play tha machine of your choice slide out your mini itx board and use it in your next machine kinda like a big game cart.

[Nailz]

I have to admit to being curious about you wanting to switch to a mini-itx for your mini-cab.  Can it really be that "mini" if you have a 19" monitor in it?

With that size monitor, I don't think the signature of a typical ATX board would really make that big of a difference overall would it?

If on the other hand you were using a small monitor like a 10" or a 13" I could see it, but with a 19" what is the point?  Or is it that you built it out and forgot to give yourself room for the computer components?

Just curious is all....

[osiris]

Here's a pic of my cab, as you can tell its very unfinished,  it looks scratched, but  its just a weird reflection from the fishtank, as you can see its big, but with the tv in it, its pretty full. My "plan" would be to mount a mini-itx board on a slide out shelf behind the marquee(which isnt made yet, because i cant decide on art, and design) .  the Marquee would then be hinged to lift up, so i could pull out the computer shelf to do hardware mantanance... or thats the hope.


-wow- looking at this made me realize how badly our apartment needs cleaning... lol

[rampy]

well, I'd take some measurements... how much space are you exactly working with? You might be able to put a cheaper/comprably priced mobo (that is more powerful) in that space sans case (which I imagine was the plan all along?)

*shrug* although you'll probably need a "all in one" motherboard... which usually have sucky video/audio... but Nforce chipset/series "all in one" motherboards get favorable reviews (for all-in-ones that is)

I plan on using a mini-itx in my pvr, or it would be great for some car pc application...  do you use your existing PC that's next to the bar top for anything besides just powering the bar top?  Maybe you could "de-case" it and get it to fit (depending on video card or other card "height") just some ideas...

good luck!

rampy

[osiris]

Yeah, i suppose i should have mentioned this...

My original intention was to just use my current mb, but after measuring  theres no way it would fit, even if it had on board video, since its a slot 1 proc.  

The motherboard alone might just about fit, but no way with a shelf and standoffs.

The other thing is I would like to move to something with an integrated NIC.

Out of curiousity, how bad is the on board, if it plays stuff through street fighter alpha 3, or mark of the wolf, im cool with it

[cack01]

Have you looked at any socket A micro-ATX boards.  

I personally would stay away from a mini-itx system unless its the "only" thing that will fit.  Alot of people have listed numbers here on mini-itx performance and I feel some of them are grossly high.  

If you can, go for a small socket A system and if you are worried about heat, get a mobile XP or underclock underclock a thoughbred B.  It would be cheaper, 10x faster, and only slightly bigger depending on the heat sink.

[Spaced Invader]

I don't 'think' the mini-itx will give better performance.  The 1ghz mini-itx cyrix-ish chip is equivalent in speed to about a p3-450mhz... Would be ideal for classics though.

Jakobud... I'm curious as to how you arrived at that figure.  I know cyrix stuff in the past has been lagging, and yes intel stuff had the fast FPU performance at comprable clockspeeds... but I'm pretty sure these "new" mini-itx via boards perform at comprable "flops" as an intel/AMD counterpart at the same clockspeed.

I don't have one in my possesion yet to give you actual benchmarks... but eventually I will (and will put em a review on  Build your own PVR/HTPC community site)

planetjay has one (the via epia m10000 I beleive) and his opinion anecdotally was that it was as fast as a comprably clocked intel/amd system... not to put text in pj's er... mouth... (I'm sure he'll correct me if I'm off the mark)

To the original poster, does your TV have svideo inputs (the mini-itx via epia m10000 does have both rca video out as well as svideo so I'm not sure why I ask)?

Now Transmeta chips are a different story... I've gota  1ghz one of those and was a little dissapointed in the MAME performance on it...

What was the question again?  

rampy

These things are a bit faster than their predecessors...the Samuel 2 and Ezra cores were based on old Cyrix and Centaur technology; the Nehemiah core uses technology gained from the swallowing of IDT. That little meal gave Via a slightly faster FPU and SSE...However the new chip is still dog slow when compared to anything AMD or INTEL has produced within the last three years.

The EPIA M10000 (Nehemiah core) chokes and sputters on 3d anything and although it will play Mpeg video well and Mpeg 2 quite acceptably, DIVX will quickly bring it to its knees. A 700MHz Duron or 1GHz Celeron (coppermine or better) will run rings around this Chip in 3d and (non SSE enhanced) multimedia.

Link with benchmarks:
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/roundupmobo/via-c3-nehemiah.html

I have to agree with cack01. I've built two tiny boxes around micro-ATX boards (Coppermine and P4) and am very pleased with both.

Opinions vary...

[Smittydc]

I have a mini-itx built into a portable box.  The whole thing is sized at 25"x9"X8".  I plug it into a lcd projector.

The m10000 plays everything I tried except the mortal kombat games.

[Edgedamage]

I have a mini-itx built into a portable box.  The whole thing is sized at 25"x9"X8".  I plug it into a lcd projector.

The m10000 plays everything I tried except the mortal kombat games.

Let's see some pics!

[Khenemet Heru]

Mini-ITX is great for a student PC/kid's PC, or for a home-made portable or something... Home theater is pushing it, but it DOES have good DVD decoding & playback onboard. For an arcade machine? I'd have to say nah...

For my cab project, I was originally going to use my M10000 EPIA board, but I've found that performance suffers immensely from the onboard video's RAM-sharing architecture. Classics run great, though a few have sound glitches due to addressing issues with RAM; games like Street Fighter 2 and other 2D fighters work, but are sluggish when the action starts getting intense (same with shooters like Mars Matrix and Ikaruga); Forget MK or any of the games that use CHD files (massive delay on video and control response, audio echoing and delay, Area 51 is barely playable, but most are just impossible). The other issue is that the S-Video out is not the greatest on some TVs - I couldn't fix the overscan on my TVs, and the S3 config software is not too flexible either.

For reference, I'm running WinXP, I have 512MB RAM and have my video settings in BIOS maxed to 64MB shared RAM - I tried the default 32MB but it didn't make a difference, nor did software overclocking (tried it just for kicks).

For my money, I'd recommend an AMD Duron 1.8mHz / 266mHz FSB Socket-A mobo combo with a good cheap nVidia 64MB video card, as I couldn't find a game that perfomed badly on my AMD tower with a similar configuration, including MK and the CHD games - all were at near normal speed with no frameskip. That's the config that's going in my cab.

Shadowhawk

[Psychosylph]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Shuttle flex-ATX motherboards.  Sure, they're a little hard to come by, but they would be excellent for an application like that.  Also, they would support the latest and greatest Intel or AMD processors, as well.  That's what I plan to do and it looks like I may have 1 or 2 extras if anyone needed one.

[jjhlk]

Check out http://www.mini-itx.com/

The C3's at 1000mhz looks a little slow, if you are trying to play certain 'recent' games that is. BUT, there are bigger and better (though not actually bigger probably) models coming out in the future.

Scroll down a lot and you can see the future.

It looks like there will be a 1.3 ghz that is an underclocked 1.6 ghz Pentium M. The system as a whole might not be so great but that really remains to be seen. Looks good now.

I'd agree with the last poster about the flex atx boards, but I don't know if they are easy to buy without the case. I suppose the case would actually fit inside most cabs, or you could gut it. The shuttle's are nice because you can put an Athlon64 in one if you really want to .

EDIT: Of course, the price for these minatures is higher...