daisy chaining power strips

[tony.silveira]

hey guys,

just moved into a much bigger house and am almost done setting up my new game room!

i’ve been reading that it isn’t safe to plug one power strip into another and i understand that if i were to turn everything on, That that would be an issue.

But I am using power strips daisychained simply for the convenience of having everything plugged in at once. Instead of having to bend over unplug and replug things in.  i dont ever turn everything on.  anyone see an issue with this?

also, a question on how much power i can draw.  in the US so 120v. if my strips are rated at 10a, i found this formula, is this correct?  10a X 120v = 1,200 watts i can draw?  and since the room is on one circuit, that 1,200 watt draw is a total for all the outlets in the room, not a per outlet?

sorry for the stupid questions, just trying to be safe since there is SO much in this room!

[PL1]

i’ve been reading that it isn’t safe to plug one power strip into another and i understand that if i were to turn everything on, That that would be an issue.

But I am using power strips daisychained simply for the convenience of having everything plugged in at once. Instead of having to bend over unplug and replug things in.  i dont ever turn everything on.  anyone see an issue with this?

There are several reasons that can be a problem.

1. With more outlets, it's easier to draw more power than the circuit is rated for.
- What if someone runs a 7A vacuum cleaner on the same 10A circuit breaker that you're using to power 5A worth of games?  If you're lucky the breaker pops.  If you're really not lucky, the excess current can cause an electrical fire.

2. There is some resistance at each socket/plug connection.
- Daisy-chaining power strips together adds resistance at each step.
- For example if there's 1.5 ohms resistance (acceptable) when plugging a power strip into the wall outlet and you daisy-chain three more power strips to the first, you're up to 6 ohms resistance (unacceptable) at the last strip.

in the US so 120v. if my strips are rated at 10a, i found this formula, is this correct?  10a X 120v = 1,200 watts i can draw?

Yes.

since the room is on one circuit, that 1,200 watt draw is a total for all the outlets in the room, not a per outlet?

I assume that "the room is on one circuit" means that one single breaker on your electrical panel feeds all of the outlets in that room, the current rating of the breaker indicates the max combined current draw for all of the outlets on that circuit.
- If you have a 10A breaker you can draw up to a combined total of 1200W. (10A * 120V)
- If you have a 15A breaker you can draw up to a combined total of 1800W. (15A * 120V)
-- You'll need to use at least two separate power strip paths so you don't draw more than the 10A that the strips are rated for.
-- If it looks like the electrical connections for Clark Griswold's Christmas lights you are definitely doing it wrong.   

One thing to watch out for is that sometimes a breaker feeds the outlets in more than one room.

It's a good idea to map out all of the outlets in the house and list which breaker feeds what.

Helped a friend map the outlets when his family moved into their latest house.
- We made a printed list of breakers and a floorplan showing each outlet and the associated breaker number.
- Mounted the printout inside the breaker panel door using a document protector and magnetic strip.
- When he got a new freezer that required a larger breaker, it was easy to update the list and floorplan, print it out, and replace the one in the document protector.   


Scott

[bobbyb13]

It's never a good idea to daisy chain those.
In fact, they are bad to use in nearly all instances really.

Even well built ones aren't designed to handle what you can potentially load them with, and it is amperage load taxing the wire that is the concern- not whether or not what you plug in will still run.

If you have a really well built house you will have outlets that are wired with 12 gauge wire and served by a 20 amp breaker.

Often those power strips are made using 14 gauge wire (which is only rated to 15 amps safely) and pretty cheap plug receptacles and if you wind up with 4 cabinets maybe drawing 4 amps each plugged into a single wall receptacle they can quickly overwhelm the wire or other elements in the strip/s- and melt insulation.

What you are talking about is how people burn houses down.

A well built and properly rated UPS however can manage what you talking about safely.
It is also a far better power stream for your games and they will last longer with fewer problems as a result.

With electricity you must think safety over convenience- always.
Things go bad at 190,000 miles/second with this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

[bobbyb13]

And Scott was beating me to it and has a perfect recommendation with mapping of course!

[tony.silveira]

thanks guys,sounds like i need to rethink the way i have things.

any recommendations on a UPS?  what about a UPS would make this safe?

apologies for my ignorance!

[PL1]

More specific details would help us help you, Tony.

Can you do a scale (or close-to-scale) diagram of your game room, the outlet positions, the way you'd like to arrange the games, and the wattage or current draw of each game?


Scott

[bperkins01]

thanks guys,sounds like i need to rethink the way i have things.

any recommendations on a UPS?  what about a UPS would make this safe?

apologies for my ignorance!

No - it won't. A UPS has nothing to do with anything in this case.

Let's assume you have 20 games..  And each game (very conservatively) only uses 2 amps when running.  (note: they spike higher on startup and its more likely 3A per machine)
Your 10 AMP strip in theory can run 5 games - but you should never run them at full rating.
ex:  Your car likely has a red line of 6500 RPM - it's not designed to live at 6500 RPM

Your 20 games also need 40 AMPs just to run..  again.. you don't want it all full rating for the circuit.

If you have a single 15A breaker for that room - it is also not likely to have a SINGLE outlet attached to it - so it is doing other work.

You are looking for a way to not run more circuits to the room - bad idea.. You want to have too many circuits, on separate breakers.
Not what you want to hear.

Beyond not having enough power, popping breakers, etc..  none of this stuff likes to be under powered..  it causes heat that kills stuff. 
Crappy extension cords cause voltage drops and stress the equipment.

[tony.silveira]

thanks guys i will do a more thorough breakout but here is a quick example.

i have lots of consoles all plugged into a power strip that i keep turned off.  if i want to play a console, i’ll turn on the strip and play that console.  i would never have a need to turn them all on at once.  this is where i have strips daisy chained.  i have all current consoles, lots of last and previous gen and all the mini “classic” consoles.  again, strips are off unless i want to play one.

the other example, i have 6 arcade 1up partycade machines on my walls.  they’re each rated around 36w.  i have all 6 of these in a separate power strip, they are all set to turn on when the strip turns on. 

that in a nutshell are the main bits.  but i will do a much deeper dive and any feedback is always appreciated, thank you all!!!

[tony.silveira]

HI all,

Thank you all very much for the excellent feedback so far!  Below is a list from memory of what is plugged in where.  There may be an additional item or two (iphone charger, etc.) in this mess but this is 95% of what I have in this room.

Curious, folks with large collections or proper home arcades, how do you power it all safely?

These are the strips I am using:  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08BJWRZGY/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I checked my garage fuse box, I am on a 15a fuse in there.

Power Strip 0 – Strip is always on but items are only turned on as needed
•   Vectrex
•   LG – 65 inch C1
•   Xfinity Wifi router
•   Xbox Series X
          o   Seagate external “game” drive STGG8000400 8TB
•   Playstation 5
•   Home built PC with 2080ti
•   Onkyo tx-nr656
          o   5 NHT super zero speakers
          o   Sub woofer
•   HP Z30i display
•   Asus ROG Swift PG27VQ display
•   10 port USB charger - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YRYS4T4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
          o   Oculus Quest 2 controller stand / charger
          o   Steam VR Touch controller stand / charger
          o   PSVR Move controller stand / charger
          o   XBOX controller charger / stand
          o   PS5 controller charger / stand
•   Smart power switch that turns on strip 1 that is plugged into it (Alexa, turn on switch 1)
•   Smart power switch that turns on strip 2 that is plugged into it (Alexa, turn on switch 2)

Power Strip 1 – plugged into power strip 0 above thru smart switch, strip is kept off unless one of the items is to be used
•   16 port HDMI switch - https://www.amazon.com/TESmart-19-inch-Rack-Ears-Control-Interval/dp/B085S1CR6T/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=16+port+hdmi+switch&qid=1643650767&sprefix=16+port+hdmi%2Caps%2C127&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFMT1JaR1czQ04wOFQmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAyOTgxMDRDRzFMRzNJSTdMQzMmZW5jcnlwdGVkQWRJZD1BMDQ0ODI0MzNNUzVGOTlKR01PSU4md2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl

•   Atari Jaguar
•   Playstation 3
•   N64
•   GameCube
•   Wii
•   Dreamcast
•   Saturn
•   3DO
•   XBOX (original)

Power Strip 2 – plugged into power strip 0 above thru smart switch, strip is kept off unless one of the items is to be used
•   XBOX 360 (with two usb powered drives attached)
•   Atari VCS (new VCS, not 1977 VCS)
•   10 port USB charger - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00YRYS4T4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
          o   NES mini
          o   Famicon mini
          o   SNES mini
          o   Super Famicon mini
          o   Atari Flashback X
          o   Commodore 64 mini
          o   Turbografx mini
          o   PC Engine mini
          o   Genesis mini
          o   Playstation mini

Power Strip 3 - main multicade
•   PC (home built, running nvidia 980)
•   LCD monitor
•   2nd marquee monitor
•   External hard drive
•   2 speakers / small sub

Power Strip 4 (plugged directly into an alexa smart power switch, same room though.  All of these are set to turn on)
•   Galaga Partycade
•   Pac Man Partycade
•   Centipede Partycade
•   Asteroids Partycade
•   Defender Partycade
•   Ms. Pac Man Partycade
•   Arcade 1up Star Wars upright
•   Smallish neon sign
•   Home built digital pinball
           o   PC (home built, running 1080)
           o   4k playfield
           o   Monitor for back glass
           o   Dot matrix display

This would be the max POTENTIAL draw if I had folks over:

Strip 4 and all connected, on - likely
Strip 3 main machine, on - likely
Strip 1 and/or Strip 2 one of the consoles being on (they all feed to the main TV so only one console at a time would be on) - rare
Strip Zero - items that could all be turned on (this would be a rarity):
          * Xfinity router (always on)
          * Vectrex
          * LG TV
          * XBOX Series X or PS5
          * Onkyo receiver

Any help is appreciate as I try and keep my house from burning down

[Mike A]

You are just ---smurfing--- with us.

This can't be real.

[bperkins01]

You have an entire house of stuff..  daisy chained to an outlet...  I lost count.. over 40 devices?

Please get some additional circuits run..  This is a bad idea..
You are asking for our opinion - that's it.. 

If anyone disagrees.  I'd like to know the reasoning..

[tony.silveira]

yeah, real.  i understand guys.  i guess i was under the impression that if the items aren't on, they wouldn't draw power to overload circuits.

[bperkins01]

It's not just overloading.. it's multiple connection points. If the device at the end is going through 3 (4?-5?) outlets/connections..  You are asking for a failure that can lead to fire.
Is the likelihood low?  yea.. 

If you just happened to bring a fire or insurance/inspector in to look at that ..  Do you think he would approve?  No way.. 

Running new outlets to a breaker box isn't horribly difficult - But maybe an electrician is in order..

Many devices are always on.. pulling a little bit of power.  It's bad practice..
HTH

[tony.silveira]

I really do appreciate the insight guys!

I'm researching local electricians.  Thankfully the room in question is upstairs, right over the panel so hopefully it won't be horribly expensive.

If I may, a few more questions.  you mention multiple connection points, so daisy chaining no bueno. 

*  does "multiple connection points" also speak to the number of outlets on the circuit?
*  if i broke out strips 1 and 2 so they were daisy chained to strip zero, that would be better?
*  keep secondary strips off unless i'm going to use something (primary 'always on' strip is always on)
*  bringing an electrician in, would you recommend maybe a separate breaker for each of the power strips I have?  a higher amp (new thicker wiring) per breaker?

thank you all, i really want to do this safely, not trying to beat a dead horse, just wanting clarification

[bperkins01]

Best to speak to the electrician since he knows the local codes.

If it were me.. I'd run 20A circuits.
That is your safest bet for now.

[RandyT]

If you have enough wall outlets to plug them in directly (as you should) these strips look like they might be of interest to you.  Just don't exceed the load rating for the circuit you connect them to.

[bobbyb13]

Best to speak to the electrician since he knows the local codes.

If it were me.. I'd run 20A circuits.
That is your safest bet for now.

This ^

If you have enough wall outlets to plug them in directly (as you should) these strips look like they might be of interest to you.  Just don't exceed the load rating for the circuit you connect them to.

And this! ^

Probably all the circuits you have in the house (apart from your kitchen and bathroom) have multiple outlets roped together inside your walls which are served by a single breaker in your load center.

Each circuit (think individual breaker) can only safely/functionally handle so much load (think arcade cabinets and what their amperage draw is) without tripping.

How your outlets are looped together and how you are using all of the ones in individual circuits has everything to do with whether your devices work, won't trip your breakers and don't overwhelm wire placed in circuit (think inadequate power strip) which is not rated to handle the load.

In the USA, following the NEC, 20 amp circuits are properly(minimally) roped with 12g wire.
15 amp circuits are properly(minimally) roped with 14g wire.
One can always upsize wire but it is unnecessary.
One should NEVER have a breaker serving a circuit with under-rated wire.

Plugging 5 arcade cabinets (which could be drawing 3 to 5 amps each- this load varies widely from machine to machine) into one circuit could be a problem.
Doesn't matter if it is in 5 different receptacles in the house (if those happen to be served by the same breaker) in one power strip, or 3 power strips.

Is that easy to follow?

A single 20 amp circuit should be able to handle any 3-4 cabinets you plug into it (as long as nothing else is loading that circuit too.)
Maybe even a single 15 amp circuit if the machines aren't really power hungry.
This part of electrical stuff is basic math of adding amperage loads until you max out.

Voltage is whether or not your stuff will actually run.
Amperage is how many loads you can place on a single breaker/wire combination.
Wattage is how big your electric bill will be.
 

Have you researched what the amp load of each individual cabinet you own is?

To properly design a system without having to grossly overdo it you will want to know
- Amp rating of each individual cabinet
- Where you want them placed in the room.

Hope that helps you think through it before you get help from an electrician in your hood.

Too bad I live so far away, or I would happily go help!

[pbj]

Meh, don’t be influenced by all these Nervous Nellies.  They’re bored and will have you endlessly chasing your tail for their amusement.

[tony.silveira]

starting with this thread i have been working on a wattage spreadsheet but now it sounds like amps is what i should be calculating?

i only have one full sized mame machine, the rest are all arcade 1up partycades.

guess i need to read up a bit on amps and wattage!

orders a meter so i can rate each piece of equipment, that should help me

[bobbyb13]

Amperage draw and what wiring and breakers you are talking about is definitely the concern.

I think most 80's vintage cabs only draw 2-3 amps really.
A mame cab might pull more but probably not.
Pinball machines are 5-6 amps typically.
My guess would be 1ups would be only 1-2 amps.

Always a good idea to err on the side of safety/function.

You would need a meter that has an "amp clamp" to check draw when a device is energized.
The cheapest fluke I found and use every day was about $300.
Unless you really want a meter like that I would do a little google-fu about your cabinets and other stuff and see what you find.

As long as you avoid linking power strips you'll be fine!

[PL1]

You would need a meter that has an "amp clamp" to check draw when a device is energized.
The cheapest fluke I found and use every day was about $300.
Unless you really want a meter like that I would do a little google-fu about your cabinets and other stuff and see what you find.

For what he's doing, a dedicated inline meter similar to this one is easier and less expensive.   

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Meter-Kill-Hx2-3-Wx1-5/dp/B00R03CVEI/




Scott

[tony.silveira]

here is the cheapy i ordered, hopefully it's enough...

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09BQNYMMM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[bobbyb13]

You would need a meter that has an "amp clamp" to check draw when a device is energized.
The cheapest fluke I found and use every day was about $300.
Unless you really want a meter like that I would do a little google-fu about your cabinets and other stuff and see what you find.

For what he's doing, a dedicated inline meter similar to this one is easier and less expensive.   

https://www.amazon.com/Power-Meter-Kill-Hx2-3-Wx1-5/dp/B00R03CVEI/




Scott

Quite cool actually!
Mostly mine gets used to check circuits within a load center or meter so I hadn't even considered something like that.

That one should be fine of course.

I had assumed we were talking old full size cabs so it will be interesting to see what those A-1ups draw.

Maybe pbj is right and you can plug them all into one strip with no drama!
 

[tony.silveira]

from what i read, the A1up's are 36 watts but now that you guys have me counting amps...

when it comes to watts, i think my big issues are:

*  three beefy PC's, one a gaming PC, one in the mame cab, one in the digital pinball table
gaming rig is just for me so I don't ever see that being on with the other two but i could see the other two being on at the same time, or, i'd like to see them on at the same time

*  my receiver

that said, still would like to be cautious and I hope the new meter leads me in the right direction

Once the room is done, I'll post a video in the project announcements.  it's no where near as impressive as some of the home arcades i've seen on here but it's my little paradise

Thank you all guys! 

[pbj]

Pinball machines ain’t no damn “5-6 amps typically.” 

 

You can easily run 8 of them on a 20A circuit.  Easily.

 

[Ond]

Question:  Should I do a back-flip off my sofa, I'm pretty sure I'll land on my feet?

Answer: Sure, go for it!

[yotsuya]

I paid an electrician to run 3 20 amp circuits to my game room. That’s much safer than trusting cheapie power strips.


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[tony.silveira]

I paid an electrician to run 3 20 amp circuits to my game room. That’s much safer than trusting cheapie power strips.


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mind if i ask how much it was?

[bobbyb13]

Pinball machines ain’t no damn “5-6 amps typically.” 

 

You can easily run 8 of them on a 20A circuit.  Easily.

 

Edit:
I could be wrong of course but this is the thread I referenced since sadly I don't own any pinball machines (or I would check myself.)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/how-many-amps-does-a-pinball-use

I would be willing to bet if all were playing at the same time and happened to have a large enough number of solenoids firing all at the same time you see an issue with something.

Check your machines.
Math isn't negotiable.

[yotsuya]

I paid an electrician to run 3 20 amp circuits to my game room. That’s much safer than trusting cheapie power strips.


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mind if i ask how much it was?

I paid $200 for materials and $200 for a seasoned experienced electrician. I can run 18 full size games, a TV and a stereo without issue.


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[pbj]

Bobby, did you actually read that thread?  2A per game unless it’s a weird one with magnets, and most of them don’t have magnets.

 

[tony.silveira]

I paid an electrician to run 3 20 amp circuits to my game room. That’s much safer than trusting cheapie power strips.


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mind if i ask how much it was?

I paid $200 for materials and $200 for a seasoned experienced electrician. I can run 18 full size games, a TV and a stereo without issue.


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JESUS I WAS QUOTED 3K!!!

[Gilrock]

Yeah you can only get the $200 price for 3 new circuits if you give a blow job.

[bobbyb13]

Bobby, did you actually read that thread?  2A per game unless it’s a weird one with magnets, and most of them don’t have magnets.

 

I did.  I was surprised there could be such a wide range of loads.
I'm not the nervous type at all, but I am cautious with electrical work and so always recommend systems that accomodate whatever someone may throw at them so that you only do something once.

I paid an electrician to run 3 20 amp circuits to my game room. That’s much safer than trusting cheapie power strips.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mind if i ask how much it was?

I paid $200 for materials and $200 for a seasoned experienced electrician. I can run 18 full size games, a TV and a stereo without issue.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

JESUS I WAS QUOTED 3K!!!

Tony, I'm not sure what was involved with the job in particular, but yotsuya got a screaming good deal almost no matter what that installer did!

$3k could be high of course, but in my neighborhood at the moment, just the wire costs 3x what it did two years ago and my hourly cash rate is $105.

It sounds like a lot of dough (and is of course) but if it is a really involved chore and takes a few days then $3k may not be that ridiculous really.

Get a few quotes from people who actually come to look at the job!

[pbj]

Right now, if you touch a certain two of my pinball machines at the same time, you get a pleasant tingling at your fingers.  Some day I should look into that.

 

[yotsuya]

Ok, I should clarify. I went to Home Depot and bought the Romex, circuit breakers, new work boxes and outlets. We have a family friend who just retired from the City as an electrician. I asked him what I owed him for labor and he said $200. It took him 1 day to do it all. No issues and it’s been great ever since.

I mean, I don’t know what your $3K quote includes, but he ran the wires, installed the piping, and put everything in the boxes for that price.

He also did the electricity for the mini split AC unit I installed in my bedroom another time.

Oh, and this was about 6 years ago, so yeah, material prices might have gone up.

[bobbyb13]

Right now, if you touch a certain two of my pinball machines at the same time, you get a pleasant tingling at your fingers.  Some day I should look into that.

 

If a threesome doesn't give you a pleasant tingling then something is amiss.
 

Stray grounds and shorting components can make for interesting results.

Someday for a little while before I'm toast I hope to own a real pinball machine...

[Dawgz Rule]

OK, here you go...

1. Per national code, you should not exceed 80% of the rated load of a circuit.  So if you have a 20 amp circuit, you should not exceed 16 amps.  If you have a 15 amp circuit, you should not exceed 12 amps.

2. Your best and easiest first step is to measure how many amps your devices consume.  A plug in ammeter is your best friend here, and is inexpensive.   (This is much better then looking at the nameplate information.) 

3. Daisy chaining surge suppressors isn't inherently dangerous, but can be an issue if you exceed the amperage rating on any one suppressor.   

4. If you need greater outlet density, you probably just need a power strip, not a surge suppressor.  Tripp-Lite makes some great stuff, but there are others.

5. If your amperage requirements dictate it, you should run another circuit.   If so, you might as well run a 20-amp because the labor is the same, and your density requirements are high.  (For clarity, 15 amp breakers are not reflective of the quality of a house, it's all about circuit requirements.)

6. I run my own circuits.  It is easier than you think.  Depending on the location, I will also use metal conduit.   If using metal conduit, you need to run individual wires versus romex, as romex can overheat in conduit.   That said, individual wire is significantly cheaper than romex, and the metal conduit addresses any code related concerns about ensuring the circuit is physically protected.   (State and local codes vary, so you may need to check, if this is acceptable.  In my location, the only requirement is an inspection.)

[pbj]

Can I just cut the ends off an old extension cord and run it through the walls to add another outlet?

[Mike A]

Absolutely.

The trick is to strip all of the insulation off of the wires.

It makes it easier to run through the wall.