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Author Topic: Question about subwoofer isolation.  (Read 5474 times)

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Howard_Casto

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Question about subwoofer isolation.
« on: July 31, 2021, 02:29:34 am »
So After 6 months of looking I've determined that the computer desk I want just doesn't exist so I'm buying a rather plain one and I'll modify/fortify as needed.   

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08QJFGSR8?ref=ppx_pt2_dt_b_prod_image

But anyway, when I move my devices over to this open plan desk I was wondering about subwoofer isolation.  I read an article that mentioned ideally your sub should be elevated an isolated via some kind of deadener, like a wooden box filled with sand.   I've had the same lansing 2.1 speaker set on my computer for probably 20 years.  It's not super powerful but it gets plenty loud and the sound is clear with a good range.   Is this something I really need to worry about?  Right now my sub is sitting on the bottom shelf of my desk and it sounds fine but then again it is right up against my UPS which has those old school lead acid batteries that weigh a ton, so maybe that is absorbing the sound somewhat.

bobbyb13

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 05:02:32 am »
Whew...

Sound and water waves are second only to weather in being a great study in chaos theory.
I have a few audiophile friends who used to build mobile audio systems for Boston Acoustics for fun (and then for $$) and this is a rabbit hole if there ever was one Howard.
Things I recall from watching/helping them...

For an office desk/gaming station, and the size speaker we are talking about (4' or smaller I would imagine?) the environment INSIDE the box has more to do with how it sounds than what is around it (unless you want to get really crazy and spec out a recording studio for your gaming station room.)

If you can, pack the subwoofer box with fiberglass insulation to absorb any internal backwave contamination and minimize/eliminate any irritating buzzing noise to begin with.

If you are REALLY concerned about unwanted vibration then even a box of sand will still telegraph crap you don't want and would suck to deal with otherwise anyway.

At probably 3" to 4" it can't move enough air to make a real resonant mess very far from it (and bass sound waves take distances measured in feet to form fully) so if you really want to isolate it from shaking ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on the desk...?

Hang it from four pieces of string/twine/cord- with the woofer facing down.
Seriously.

Or second to that, sit it on the points of four nails if you can pull it off in your situation.
The string/harness method is probably easier to pull of and will probably work better anyway.

Of course all of this is REALLY excessive for what is probably a 3" woofer in a ported enclosure that is made of particle board to begin with (and something I have squandered valuable failing brain power on-)

My guess is the best one can do for a desk or cabinet setup is a 6" sub in a sealed box of 3/4" MDF which is sealed with fiberglass, fillet rope and epoxy, with the woofer glued down with 3m 3200 and then the box suspended with paracord.
Volume of box depends on your personal taste in tone and the recommendations of the woofer manufacturer and the box volume will also dictate what size amp you really need to drive the thing properly (sealed enclosures needing more power than ported ones...)

Something with that punch might irritate other people elsewhere in the house though-

And therefore I'll build it into one of my cabs if I can make the time to do so.
 >:D
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Mike A

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 06:18:06 am »
If it sounds fine then it sounds fine.

BadMouth

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 07:51:47 am »
For a small sub in a 2.1 computer speaker set, you would be much better served experimenting with location rather than worrying about isolation.

Isolating the sub from the floor is more about preventing extra resonances (noise from the vibrating floor or other things touching the vibrating floor).
Probably unnecessary, but if you want to go all out for such a small sub pick up a pack of cork coasters and put those under it.

This is coming from someone who applied damping material and tracked down every vibration in his base model work truck to eliminate resonances.  ;D

« Last Edit: July 31, 2021, 07:56:36 am by BadMouth »

Howard_Casto

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2021, 01:05:47 pm »
I figured you guys would know what to look for, thanks.   I'm hoping it'll still sound fine when it isn't crammed in behind a bunch of gear so I guess this is a what if scenario.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2021, 03:10:32 pm »
My neighbor commented to me at our post room that my sub woofer needed to be isolated, especially at 10pm.

bobbyb13

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2021, 12:51:05 am »
My neighbor commented to me at our post room that my sub woofer needed to be isolated, especially at 10pm.

 :laugh2:
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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2021, 09:53:15 pm »
I've got nothing to add other than if you set it on four nails, make it three. Then it will always be stable. More than three legs always means they have to be exactly the same length. Think about the last time you were at a cafe sitting at a four legged table.


ROUGHING UP THE SUSPECT SINCE 1981

Howard_Casto

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2021, 01:49:14 am »
Funny you should mention that..... the sub has always been on carpet so I never noticed, but one of the legs is ever so slightly shorter than the rest, giving it the slightest wobble I've ever seen.   Luckily they all screw in place, so I just unscrewed it a little.  Anyway, the new desk came in.  The tabletop is kind of "meh" quality, but I got one with metal legs so I can make a proper wooden top for it once lumber prices go back down.   It actually looks quite nice, but the top is very thin pressed wood so I know it won't last.  I just got it together this evening but I'll post some pics once I have everything in place with proper cable management and stuff. 

Xiaou2

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2021, 06:36:56 pm »
If you get better speakers... you wont want a generic ported sub, muddying up the sound.

 I remember the time I went into a walmart, and heard this incredibly bassy music playing...
but unlike most systems... the bass was crystal clear, with no "Farty" artificial sounding bass.

 I thought it was a huge system... and when I got to it... it was a small Phillips boom box.
It had a technology called  "Woox"... which is basically a Passive Radiator.   The sounds it
made were Far superior to typical PC / Bookshelf speakers, with a Sub.

 That only fueled my passion for better audio.

 Then I got a pair of re-foamed EPI 100v speakers.   These things blew my mind.
Totally sealed, and only an 8" two way... they Trounced the sound quality that came out of my
12" 3 way 200 watt  Techniques floor speakers.

 I put them on top of my 12" speakers, and asked a friend to tell me which speakers were
playing.  The EPIs are about 1/3 rd smaller.   He pointed to the larger speakers.  He was
about 8ft away from them, sitting in front of them on the couch.

 The are not as loud as the Techs.. but the bass quality is Natural sounding.  No distorting farty sounds.
Its like eating the worst quality ice cream... where you keep eating buy are never satisfied.. .and then
you buy high quality ice cream... and its so good, that you only need a few spoonfuls, to feel happily
satisfied.   With the techs, you felt the need to increase the volume, to make up for the poor sound
quality.  With the EPIs, it was Ear Nirvana.

 Its not just that the EPI bass was so damn good... but that they use a special Inverted Tweeter.
This tweeter is pure Magic.  Most speakers produce a certain Sweet-Spot, that you have to be
centered within, for the best stereo effect.   A few feet in either direction away from it... and it
does not sound that good.

 However, the EPIs inverted tweeters (get the upgraded versions, that have the plastic bezels),
make a 3d sound-field, that almost makes the entire room, the sweet spot.  Its almost holographic,
in the way that it makes the sound as if its completely Live.  As if the band is playing in your room,
and you could virtually point to where each instrument is within the room.

 The other magical thing about them, was the clarity and lack of distortion, even at their highest
volume levels.  You know those songs where you cant make out what lyric the singer is singing?
Well, with these speakers... you actually can hear these details!  For the first time in like 15yrs..
I was hearing lyrics, that I never had actually understood before.  It was amazing.

 My former friend once was talking up a storm about these $3000 speakers... and I pretty much
shrugged him off.. as I neither could afford such speakers... and because most of these modern
speakers are inferior ECO trash.   He insisted I check them out at the local High-Fi shop.

 Sure enough, they had a huge array of speakers, with his pick being the most expensive, at
a little over 3K for the pair.   Even WITH the like 1000$ sub that was also being used.. they
sounded like low quality garbage.   It only made sense... as you cant have drivers that were
that small... able to produce high dynamic sound.  The bass was weak and artificial.. and the
upper range was highly directional, with no real 3d soundstage.  Basically, the $100 EPIs totally
destroyed them, in every way possible.  Not by a little.  By a Landslide.


 The first time I heard the EPIs was at a friends Arcade / Slotcar track.  He was playing
Earth Wind and Fire (Disco), which is extremely dynamic music.  The sound was
everywhere... so crisp, clean, bassy, and detailed.  I tried to find these speakers for about
15 min... and still was not able to find them!  My hearing is very good... so with normal
speakers, Id easily find where they were located.   I finally broke down and asked him,
what speakers were they, and where the hell were they?!

 He pointed to the front store glass window.  They were about 5ft apart.  One was vertical, slightly
behind a Race-Drivin arcade machine.  The other, was laying on its side, with a mountain of
magazines on top of it... and I think there was some other things in front of it as well.

 Basically, it was the worst speaker placement in the world... and yet, the entire shop was
like a live concert.  It completely blew all the speakers Ive owned, and heard, out of the water.
I began my search, and eventually found a dude selling them refoamed on craigslists.

 Its easily one of the Best purchases Ive made in my entire Life.

 I drive them with an old Pioneer surround sound amp, that I purchased with a Laserdisc player, when
I was 17 yrs old.  Still works like a champ.

 
 At one time I did own a pair of Phillips woox speakers as well.  I liked the extra bass response
in some things... but, they were no real match for the EPIs in total comparison.  The foam surrounds
on the woox passives rotted... and so I ended up leaving them behind when I had to move.


 Todays ECO based speakers, tend to use very small woofer drivers.. and try to make up for the
lack of mid-bass and low-bass, with a ported sub.  The port allows for more volume... but at
the expense of clean undistorted bass.  At low volumes, its not that bad.. but at medium
levels.. that artificial sounding woof... grates at you.  Especially once you hear what the music
is supposed to sound like.  Then its pure Torture.


 To answer specifically... that small fake-sub,  is highly directional... and works more on the
proximity to the person... rather than anything else.

 A real sub, could be placed virtually anywhere in the room, and produce a very non-directional
"effect".   Of course, that means ticking off your neighbors / housemates, with the volume
and vibration produced.

 If you want to feel the bass, and respect the neighbors, get a pair of Bass Shaker Transducers.
I put two under my office chair for a test.  On max setting (15 watts each I believe), the
effect was so powerful, that I could not view the image in my monitor properly... because my
body / eyes were bouncing too strongly.  I backed it off a bit, and all was good.  I was using
the game Gyruss to test this.  In Gyruss.. when you fire.. .the bullet sound get bassier the
deeper it goes into the screen.  The rumble effect is quite awesome.


 FYI - Being the Tinkerer that I am... I have tried in the past, to Modify speakers... such as trying to
seal my ported Techniques speakers.  At the time, I didnt realize that would never work properly,
because the woofers in the techs, are too weak to be able to deal with a sealed enclosures air
pressure levels.   Sealed box woofers, have much higher powered magnets, and stronger coils.
This takes more power to move them.. but that also means higher levels of speaker control and
accuracy.  For example, to be able to stop the speaker movement faster... or to accelerate it
much faster.

 Id also previously tried putting in super tweeters in the techs... and while it seemed to
help a little, it was really a waste of time and money.  Two crappy tweeters, cant defeat
a single superior made tweeter.

 All in all, it was a fun time, and I learned a lot about speaker designs and their inner workings.

 If you cant afford / find such a speaker... I recommend at minimal... getting a pair of
Sennheiser headphones.  Anything model HD 500 or above.  The clarity and soundstage that
many of these produce, will rival house speakers that cost well over 50k.

 Depending on the model chosen, you may need a decent amp to drive them well.
I just use my old amp.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2021, 09:54:18 pm »
Well I mean I'm no audiophile but it sounds really good.   it actually sounds better now that my speakers are spread out a bit and the subwoofer doesn't have a metric ton of stuff in front of it.   Normally pc speakers are kind of crap but I just stumbled into this one and about 20 years after the fact I still have no complaint.   I seem to remember that they were from sam's and  had a fairly high price tag but I got them on clearance.   I guess I just lucked into a  good set. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2021, 02:55:34 am »
If you like how they sound then just run 'em til they blow up!
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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2021, 08:33:15 am »
If you like how they sound then just run 'em til they blow up!

I agree.  I ran a similar PC set for close to 20 years because the newer stuff went down in quality.  They probably still work and sound fine.  The only reason they got replaced was when I got hooked on FPS games, I started wanting some of that fancy new (at the time) surround sound.  :)

Just about anything decent is all that's needed for a PC, unless the PC is a central part of your main entertainment system or you use it for media production. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2021, 04:00:21 pm »
Altec was known for making some decent pc speakers. Good clean highs.

 Not super stellar.. but good overall sound for what they were.

If you like how they sound then just run 'em til they blow up!

I agree.  I ran a similar PC set for close to 20 years because the newer stuff went down in quality.  They probably still work and sound fine.  The only reason they got replaced was when I got hooked on FPS games, I started wanting some of that fancy new (at the time) surround sound.  :)

Just about anything decent is all that's needed for a PC, unless the PC is a central part of your main entertainment system or you use it for media production. 

 I started out by hooking a small stereo boom box to my Sega Genesis.
 The only PC I had was my grandfathers hand-me-down C64... until I was much older.

 At 17, I had bought that Pioneer Receiver, and lucked out in finding some amazing old
12" 3way speakers that a guy refoamed.  I wish I remembered the company/model.

 I had also bought an Amiga 500, and I hooked that, and my Genesis up to it.

 Terminator 2, was my first Laserdisc purchase.  I piped the video into the Amiga's
monitor.  The picture was much clearer than a typical TVs composite input.  Hearing
the opening Terminator war, blasting laser-guns fire everywhere in surround sound... was epic.
Especially at that time... where VHS low-fi was the standard for many years to follow.

 I didnt actually get a windows based PC, until I found out about Emulation
from a friend at work.  My first PC was an AMD 233mhz.   Of course, it was also
hooked up to my Pioneer amp.

 I never understood why anyone would want inferior tiny PC speakers, that I saw
being sold.  I never needed them, because I had my amp + full house speakers...
which sounded far superior.

 I listen to all of my music, movies, and games, on my PCs output to the amp.
The PC is where I spend the most time... so why would I want inferior sound on it?

 And when I saw people paying +$300 for a dedicated PC surround system, with those
tiny inferior eco speakers?  I chuckled.

 It makes no sense.  You can get a superior used +150 watt Amp at a thrift shop for
under $30.  You can find used bookshelf or house speakers, that are far more powerful,
and far more accurate / detailed.. for under $100,  on craigslist.

 Such a setup will be 1000x more enjoyable to your everyday experiences on the PC.
It will blow the pants off of those tiny low-quality PC speakers.  And, it will likely last
you several decades without ANY issues at all.

(unless you get a more modern amps, that uses non-lead based soldier... which have
a very high failure rate.  Those rarely make it to the used market anyways, because they end
up failing long before that point)


 I will say this... That as good as my surround sound system was initially... once I bought a
pair of  Sennheiser HD 500  headphones...  I was blown away.   I put them on at like 2am
in the morning, and popped a DVD into my PC.  When the film started to play... it was
very loud... and I realized that I must have left my floor speakers on.  I dove for the
speaker toggle, while ripping off my headphones... only to realize, that none of my
4 Techniques 3way speakers were "ON" !!

 These headphones were so clear and dynamic, and created such an incredible
3d Soundstage... that it completely fooled me into thinking my entire surround system
was still on!  Thats no small task.. as my hearing sensitivity is extremely high. For
example, I could hear when the CRT TV was on downstairs, even if I was a good
25 ft away from it.  Id hear the high pitched whine it created.

 It was only then, that I became an actual "Audiophile", and started to go crazy
about finding better floor speakers.   Also, as good at the HD500 headphones
were... I ended up getting a higher end model Sennheiser headphone used...
that that was about 2x as clear as the original set.  Totally mind blowing.

(only problem, is that it revealed every flaw of a bad quality MP3, or low-quality
recording.  As such, Id sometimes switch between them, depending on what
I was listening to)

 The only reason I ever bought the higher priced Senns... is because I used to
destroy headphones in less than a few months time.  Often, the cable broke
internally.  The Audiophile level Senns, have removable replaceable cables.
They also offered other replaceable parts, such as a new set of foam pads, for
a mere $15.  That sold me on them, over a well known brand name that was
about 20$ cheaper.

 My original Senns lasted about 13 yrs, before I managed to snap the headband
at a critical joint.  That seriously impressive, considering I used to wear them
Everywhere.. and for like 8 to 12hrs a day.  They also made excellent ear muffs,
as they are over-the-ear, and extremely comfortable.  In fact, they are so light,
and so comfortable... you often forget that you have them on.  Unlike many
other headphones.. that cause pressure pinching and long term discomfort.

 Note, that Senns are not Bass-Head headphones.  They have bass, but the bass
is extremely accurate, rather than being artificially boosted / distorted.  These
shine best for 3d soundstage, such as for watching films, and playing games
that are critical in you hearing an ops relative position.. in 3d space.  Of course,
they are the best for music as well.. as there is so little distortion, that you
hear things that you never used to hear before... in the music that you have
listened to for decades.

 The HD 500 were bassier than the 590 I later got.  At first I was displeased
with the 590s, due to that lack of bass.  Eventually, I piped some very high
quality DVD audio, HD youtube vids, and Flac level recordings... and they produced
amazing low bass levels that 500 could not touch.  So, the issue was the actual
bad recordings.. not the headset.


 I can tell you one thing... that once you hear Audiophile quality sound output... you
can Never go back.   Its also one of the best purchases to improve the quality of
your life.   Being an Audiophile, does not mean you have to spend huge amounts of
money.  You can find a lot of high quality audio gear used, for fairly cheap prices.
You just have to do a little research into the gear, and its internals.

 You can often tell if a speaker is going to be decent.. by how heavy it is.  My EPIs
may be small... but they weigh about 2x as much at the much larger Techniques
(which I ended up leaving behind, as they were total garbage in comparison).

 The weight was not just from using thicker walled wood.. but also, from heavier
speaker magnets / drivers.  Also, I advise against Ported speakers, unless it at least
has a Passive radiator.  The rare exception Ive ran into, are wide open ports, rather than
Tube based ports.  The wider rectangle ports did not seem to have that farty sound effect.

 Make sure all drivers are the Originals. (Same size/angle Cone and Cone-Caps. Same colors)

 Check the surrounds for Foam Rot  /  cracks.   If so, you would need to get them re-foamed,
which can be done for less than $100 per driver.  Often re-sellers already refoam them before sale.

 Capacitors in the Crossovers.  Caps go bad after decades of time... changing in values.
Its often a good idea to replace them.  They are fairly cheap, and easy to replace.

 Always test the speakers, to make sure all drivers are working properly.

 Check the speaker box edges.  I bought a pair that ended up having some spitting at the corners,
due to moisture / water damages.  It wasnt that bad.. but just something to be aware of. I might
have to them, to make sure there is no air-leakage.

 Not all speakers are what they seem.  While certain older 70s speakers are on a whole other
level... there were also a lot of cheap crud, that may look decent externally.. but have
really poor quality output, due to inferior internal parts.

 The 80s was about the time when most speaker quality started to drop off drastically.
They often added more drivers to seemingly attract people... but overall, they are all low
quality drivers, and do not sound that good overall.  They also often have woofers that
blow way too easily.. so you have to be very careful how hard you push them.

 Im also not a huge fan of "Horn" speakers.  They work well for a night club... but the horn
shape seems to drastically distort the audios 3d spatial image.  Talk through a cone, and
you see that the sound of your voice changes.  Its similar to what happens with coned
tweeters.

 Domed midranges.  From my experience in hearing many speakers... The most luscious
midranges Ive heard so far, came from a Dome shaped midrange.  Most were between
2 to 3" in diameter (externally viewed).

 From what Ive heard described... Ribbon tweeters can produce some incredible sound
accuracy..  but, It seems to be very directional.  IE:  You have to sit Exactly in one particular
spot, to get the best effect.  They do not seem to spread the sound out as wide, as other
tweeter types.

 Woofter size:  From my experience, 8" woofers are typically the smallest woofers you would
want to have.  They typically can move faster and produce punchier bass than larger woofers.
Anything smaller, often cant produce as wide and deep of a bass response... unless its using
extreme box tricks, such as tuned ports, to make artificial bass sounds.

 The better the Woofer driver... the more bass it will produce.  For example, my techs 12"
woofers, cant produce bass lower nor as powerful, as my EPI 8" woofers.  Those coils
and stronger magnets, make for a far superior bass experince.

 That said... I do have a pair of Full sized Advent 10" bullnose speakers.  Advents are
strange, in that they use a 10" speaker in a 12" metal basket.  The bass response
they produce, shakes the house.  But, IMO.. its way too much for musical accuracy.

I only used them on things like movie effect.  Such as when watching  The Polar Express..
when the train comes in.  It literally felt like an actual train was rolling through the living
room.  They produce a level of bass and vibration, that are similar to a high powered
subwoofer.  Its quite insane, but again... not good for general music, IMO (way too exaggerated).

 (I do wonder, if replacing the caps would fix the exaggeration. Ive yet to open them up)


 Finally... I will say that I tried a specific sound card that had Digital Audio output.
Maybe its the age of my amp.. but I can tell you.. that Digital fiber OP, sounded 90% worse
than pure Analog.  The dynamic range was cut down Drastically... making the sound flat
and tinny.  I tinkered with it for a bit, and then reverted back to pure analog.

 Maybe digital works better via RCA connectors... And or, maybe with a newer amp.
But I seem to doubt it.  According to what I learned about these systems... is that they are
extremely limited, and lacking.

Osirus23

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2021, 12:15:27 am »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 01:28:35 pm by Osirus23 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2021, 09:45:19 am »
I listen to all of my music, movies, and games, on my PCs output to the amp.
The PC is where I spend the most time... so why would I want inferior sound on it?

 And when I saw people paying +$300 for a dedicated PC surround system, with those
tiny inferior eco speakers?  I chuckled.

...

 Finally... I will say that I tried a specific sound card that had Digital Audio output.
Maybe its the age of my amp.. but I can tell you.. that Digital fiber OP, sounded 90% worse
than pure Analog.  The dynamic range was cut down Drastically... making the sound flat
and tinny.  I tinkered with it for a bit, and then reverted back to pure analog.

 Maybe digital works better via RCA connectors... And or, maybe with a newer amp.
But I seem to doubt it.  According to what I learned about these systems... is that they are
extremely limited, and lacking.

Been there, done almost all of that (never really got into the headphones thing.)  Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.  Still have my 64s and Amigas and have been using PCs since color and sound were optional features.

Never owned a full-surround "PC" speaker system.  When I went to surround on the PC, it was a 5.1 system, albeit a cheaper one, intended for HT and of course, an appropriate SB card which could feed it the signals to do it.  I'm sure that there were/are good "PC" surround systems, but the value usually isn't there.

Audio quality is going to depend heavily on the circuitry in both the sound card and the amp.  Notice I didn't say "digital".  The audio from a PC exists in the digital realm, just like a CD.  It's not analog until the circuitry in the audio processor creates it for output on those jacks.  Unless you had a high-end sound card, the circuitry for doing this will usually be much better in a decent amplifier.  Remote processing also better isolates signals, by getting them away from the RF nightmare that is the typical PC box.  There are some bandwidth limitations with fiber-optic cables with anything over 5.1, but they are especially good for the aforementioned isolation.

But all of this is academic.  Sound is very subjective, as no two individuals possess exactly the same receptor wetware. I've heard "audiophile" systems which sound like utter crap to me, especially when the cost is considered.  They are usually tailored to the specific application and environment of interest to the specific user, which means that they tend to fall on their face when venturing too far outside of those parameters. 

With audio, the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach is where I put my money.  If it sounds good to you, turn it up until it doesn't and if it's still not loud enough before you get to that point, upgrade until it is.  Anything beyond that is usually just expensive fluff :)     
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:48:28 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2021, 02:00:06 pm »
I'm getting back in to PC audio after years of just having stereo speakers. Going to rearrange my setup to have 4 channel surround. I'll have my AVR do a phantom center channel using the 2 fronts.

It really feels like a dying niche which sucks. If you search for PC audio stuff now 95% of the stuff you'll find is headphones, headphones, headphones.

Well that's because desktops in general are becoming extinct for everything except streaming and streamers obviously use headphones so they don't have a nasty echo in their stream.   I like a big scary tower to keep the normies away from my pc personally.  I've got the tools to stream at this point but I lack the motivation.   I'm afraid it would make gaming too much like work.   

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2021, 08:47:52 pm »
I have Xonar DG/DGX cards in both my cab and desktop.  I could not get the sound I was after without them.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #18 on: August 12, 2021, 08:55:19 pm »


I'm getting back in to PC audio after years of just having stereo speakers. Going to rearrange my setup to have 4 channel surround.

Track down the original quadraphonic mix of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon.
It is one of the best sounding recordings I've ever heard.  I spent a lot of time trying to tune my systems to live up to hearing that album on an original quadraphonic system only to find out later that it was a completely different mix by a different engineer. Aside from the original quadrophonic vinyl, it was only released as part of some gigantic box set.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #19 on: August 13, 2021, 09:36:35 am »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 01:28:06 pm by Osirus23 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #20 on: August 13, 2021, 12:42:57 pm »
I'm getting back in to PC audio after years of just having stereo speakers. Going to rearrange my setup to have 4 channel surround. I'll have my AVR do a phantom center channel using the 2 fronts.

It really feels like a dying niche which sucks. If you search for PC audio stuff now 95% of the stuff you'll find is headphones, headphones, headphones.

It's kind of sad how PC audio seems to have regressed since the 90's. I still remember how great 3D sound was back in the original Half-Life, and that's over 20 years ago. I don't think I've come across anything as good since.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #21 on: August 13, 2021, 01:36:01 pm »
Well that's because desktops in general are becoming extinct for everything except streaming...

...Huh?  I mean, if your PC use is limited to the tasks easily performed by a Chromebook, then I'd agree.  But until the day comes when state-of-the-art processing, graphics and sound hardware easily fit into a tablet or laptop form factor, or single-digit-millisecond network latencies make cloud computing more attractive, the big metal boxes will still be with us.  I still remember people saying that the PS/2 keyboard standard was dead, and it actually took 15-years after that time before it mostly happened.

I never did see the allure of paying more for something less powerful, more limiting and harder to repair, just so it could be portable and/or have a reduced footprint.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #22 on: August 13, 2021, 09:05:54 pm »
Well that's because desktops in general are becoming extinct for everything except streaming...

...Huh?  I mean, if your PC use is limited to the tasks easily performed by a Chromebook, then I'd agree.  But until the day comes when state-of-the-art processing, graphics and sound hardware easily fit into a tablet or laptop form factor, or single-digit-millisecond network latencies make cloud computing more attractive, the big metal boxes will still be with us.  I still remember people saying that the PS/2 keyboard standard was dead, and it actually took 15-years after that time before it mostly happened.

I never did see the allure of paying more for something less powerful, more limiting and harder to repair, just so it could be portable and/or have a reduced footprint.

Hey I didn't say I liked it, but tablets, notebooks and laptops are in while desktops are out.  I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.  Like I said... gamers and only the hardcore at that are the only ones that buy desktop PCs anymore.   Artists seem to prefer macs and businesses are rapidly shifting towards laptops or dumb terminals to accommodate working from home. 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2021, 10:41:20 am »
I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.

I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny.  Computers are and always have been tools.  There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location.  Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result.  You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them.  When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled.  Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so.     

But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium.   It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw.  The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production.  It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case.  It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing.  If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box.

Here's a good article on the subject.  Be sure to read to the end.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2021, 10:01:16 pm »
.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2021, 01:27:45 pm by Osirus23 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #25 on: August 14, 2021, 11:18:59 pm »
I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.

I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny.  Computers are and always have been tools.  There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location.  Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result.  You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them.  When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled.  Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so.     

But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium.   It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw.  The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production.  It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case.  It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing.  If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box.

Here's a good article on the subject.  Be sure to read to the end.


An with respect I think you are assuming guys like us represent the average computer usage of the population when we don't.   99.9% of the non-gamers/streamers out there just use their pc for solitaire, browsing the web, and occasionally opening an office document.    So for average usage (ie not us) even a chrome book is sufficient.   Like Osirus pointed out, this isn't the early 2000s.... a low end pc will last teh average consumer a long assed time and when they "upgrade" to a chromebook, laptop or whatever and the 20 year old apps they are still using run fine they won't see the need for a desktop.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2021, 01:28:19 pm »
I have never used a PC speaker system, ever since 98 I have always had a dedicated receiver hooked up to my PC. right now I have a digital optical audio cable hooked from my PC to a DAC; if you do not know what a DAC is it is pretty much an external sound card, it converts you audio from Digital to Analogue, you want to make sure this conversion is done right otherwise you will have a lower quality sound coming out. The Analogue sound then goes into my Denon Receiver which powers 2 Bookshelf Speakers on my desk and 2 more  energy satellite speakers mounted on my back wall along with a 300 watt sub.

I think the big problem is with neighbors or people you live with a lot of people can never get the full use out of these kind of systems so the focus becomes headphone and other isolating audio solutions.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2021, 10:53:05 pm »
There is always somebody who totally over nerds their audio. ::)

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2021, 06:20:22 am »
Been there, done almost all of that (never really got into the headphones thing.)

 - If you have even half decent hearing... I highly suggest getting a Sennheiser headphone,
anything model HD500 or above.  The entry is at least $100 for good sound... and about +$250
for sound so crystal and so 3D... that will easily trounce speakers costing more than $100,000.

 The ones I had, fooled in into thinking my entire Surround sound system was on.
4 channel headphones tend to be a gimmick, that doesnt work out well, due to the low
quality drivers in them.. and the lack of spatial differentials, within such a small area.

 A high quality headphone, can reproduce about 50% more of the sound spectrum...
and they maintain the originally recorded spatial 3D depth... where as inferior headphones and
speakers tend to distort this, and lose most of the actual 3D depth.

 This is why high level competitive FPS players tend use brands like Sennheiser... because they
can tell approximately where an enemy is, in 3d space.  Instantly, and with great accuracy.

 For Music.. you get to hear things in the music that used to be mildly distorted,
and you also gain even more 3D depth, that you also have never experienced before.
(Such as being able to point out, within a room... exactly where the bass player was standing)

 For Movies... you get all of the above... in a more private situation... such as when someone else
is using your projector.. or when you have to keep it more quiet.. due to others sleeping.


Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.  Still have my 64s and Amigas and have been using PCs since color and sound were optional features.


 Well, some Mods are nice.. but there are a lot of them that are merely just low quality "Samples".
Personally, I tend to prefer listening to actual FM Synths.  Anything from the original c64 sid.. to the Sega Genesis  (Thunderforce II, Target Earth),  to actual people playing things on the Yamaha DX-7, DX-7 IID, etc. (Similar to the game sounds in Marble Madness)   As well as monkeying around with these FM Synth engines, in keyboard synth emulators.   Most Arcade games operate with a built in FM Synth chip... which is why they sound so damn Glorious.

 I really despised the SNES using a sample based audio engine, rather than a dedicated synth chip.   The sounds and music were so much more generic and flat, as a result.   While you Can sample synths for it.. the problem then becomes file-sizes.  And since there was limited space on these carts... the audio quality tended to take a huge hit, as a result.  Since synths are driven by algorithms, the filesizes were very small... and they produce a flawless sound quality.. that is breath-taking.  Only problem is... programming an FM Synth was a nightmare for anyone other than a highly dedicated sound engineer + experimenter.


 And of course, there is also the more modern game audio, such as the bumpin soundtracks from Ridge Racer (PS1).


 I also prefer to run my MP3, and Flac audio files, into my stereo.  Its easier to set up a nice playlist, and let it go.
I sometimes play CDs directly from the PC... but Im trying to Rip them all to Flac files.


Never owned a full-surround "PC" speaker system.  When I went to surround on the PC, it was a 5.1 system, albeit a cheaper one, intended for HT and of course, an appropriate SB card which could feed it the signals to do it.  I'm sure that there were/are good "PC" surround systems, but the value usually isn't there.

 Thats exactly what I recommend.  You simply output the analog stereo out.. to a used surround sound amp..  which you can often find at a thrift shop for less than $30.  A soundblaster card has far superior audio to onboard audio, of course.  While my amp doesnt have Digital THX... the basic surround sound method it uses, still seems to work fine, when playing THX Digital BluRay movies though it  (I use a dedicated blu-ray player, rather than a PC bluray drive)


 The only dedicated PC surround system I heard that was "OK", was at a friends house.  It was a white 4.1 set, by Cambrige Soundworks.  The small speakers were pretty clear... but that said... it was still underpowered, and missing a lot of the deeper audio spectrum.  I have no idea what he paid for it... but it probably cost him as much as my 300? watt Pioneer receiver.

 The biggest problem with the modern PC based systems.. besides the poor quality speakers... and high prices.. is that the Amp electronics tend to fail in less than a 3yr period.  The lead-free soldier, and low quality components used... cause them to fail quickly.   I see these show up in the thrift stores very often... and the amps are always dead.   Heck, thats the problem with everything made today.  Buy a $1000 LCD tv, and you will be lucky if it makes it to the 2yr mark... if its not DOA, right out of the box.

 I thought about trying to pickup a new THX surround receiver.. but after I saw the countless failures in the reviews... I realized I was better off not risking the loss of money.


But all of this is academic.  Sound is very subjective, as no two individuals possess exactly the same receptor wetware. I've heard "audiophile" systems which sound like utter crap to me, especially when the cost is considered.  They are usually tailored to the specific application and environment of interest to the specific user, which means that they tend to fall on their face when venturing too far outside of those parameters.


 The biggest issue, is that many people have a poor hearing spectrum / range.  If you dont hear midrange frequencies well... then you will likely not enjoy a typical speakers output.  You will seek speakers that have seriously cranked midrange levels.  To others... your speakers will be PAINFUL to their ears... as the midrange will be overbearing and harsh.  But to you... it will be "Just right".

 Now.. heres the thing... The speakers you were listening too... may have been capable of better sound... BUT... the guy may have jacked the midrange EQ way the hell up, for example.

 I had one guy listen to my Sennheiser headphones.. and he was so blown away, that he decided to order a pair of Audiophile grade headphones.  Somehow, he ended up getting a different brand instead.  This brand clamed to be able to hit even more of a frequency range than my headphones.   But when I listened to them... the midrange was so harsh and overbearing , that I simply could not stand them.  I tried to use my audio players EQ settings... but the headphones were simply too far tuned this way... to be able to reduce the midrange to a reasonable level at all.   He loved them... but as I learned.. he did in fact have pretty bad hearing issues, so it made sense.

 Its not all about Frequency Range figures either.  Its also about THD (distortion levels, at high volume levels).

 Then you have Fake-Bass (Bass Ports)... which technically can hit a much lower frequency level... BUT... it sounds artificial, and awful.

 Then you have things like Horn Tweeters... which distort the 3D audio image.

 And of course, you now have modern ECO speakers.. that try to fool the customer, that four 5" drivers.. can somehow match the bass levels of a single high quality +8" woofer.   Even with one of their fake Subs (a woofer, acting as a sub)..  it wont even come close to the musical range of that +8" woofered speaker.

 But anyway... the point being... is that if the speaker is made properly... with you setting your EQ settings tailored to your ears... you Should be able to get a decent sound out of it.   However... If your hearing is extremely limited in certain ranges... you would have to drastically alter your drivers... to make up for the things you do not hear well... as even heavy EQ, may not be enough.   The issue with this... is that if other peoples ears are too far apart in ranges... then they might be driven away by your chosen sound profile.


With audio, the "jack of all trades, master of none" approach is where I put my money.  If it sounds good to you, turn it up until it doesn't and if it's still not loud enough before you get to that point, upgrade until it is.  Anything beyond that is usually just expensive fluff


 This does not make any sense, in terms of how Audio actually works.

 A speaker that is only 15 watts, might be clear and powerful enough for an arcade machine... but its not going to be able to fill an entire room with powerful, clean, accurate, sound.

 A modern cheap-o-speaker:  The Techniques 200 watt speakers might be fairly LOUD... but their ported design, and low quality woofers... present a sound quality that is full of distortions.  (low magnet strengths = poor cone control = lots of distortions)

 An Audiophile level speaker.. can be both fairly Loud, and still remain Flawless... having like only .01% of distortions in its reproductions, at its LOUDEST volume potentials.

 Or course, if you are in a band... and trying to play at a large, Noisy, Club..  you are going to choose "Pro-Audio Speakers".  These are not anywhere near as accurate as audiophile speakers, but they tend to have anywhere from 300 to +800 watts capability.  These are used in Movie Theaters, Outdoor Rock Concerts...etc.   The main function is loudness, powerful chest thumping bass, and a wide high-frequency audio spread.


 What Ive also learned from messing with speakers, and learning their component and design attributes... is that you cant
realistically "Upgrade" a speaker.   When I added super-tweeters to my techniques... I didnt realize that I was altering the Ohm resistance of the speakers. (which could have blown a lesser quality Amp, quickly)

 You cant add a more powerful sealed woofer in their cabinet... because that cabinet it designed to be ported.  Its also designed to a specific inner air volume.   Also, the cabinets cheap and thin wood... allow for distortions.   You would have to put internal braces in the speaker, and thicken the walls internally, at minimal... for a decent woofer upgrade to even be worth it.   At that point, you might as well build a new box... and scrap the crappy speakers completely.

 And if you were merely looking for raw power... such as a club speaker... the box isnt big enough, strong enough, nor is the internal wiring the correct gauges.  The weak electronic crossovers would also likely Fry, as the are not designed for that much power.


 Finally... in reference to the above "Pro-Audio Speakers" ...I will say that one of my friends got a really massive pair of speakers.  I think they were Cerwin Vegas.  Two 12 or 15" woofers, and I believe a mid and a horn tweeter.   I think they were like 800 watts each.  They were powerful, thumpin, and clear.  When he cranked them to a DVD of Iron Man... it literally sounded like you were in a war-zone... and I wonder if the neighbor didnt freak out as a result.   That said... they were not audiophile speakers.  They lacked musicality.  The high frequencies were Harsh, and the 3d Soundstage was nearly non-existent, even at decent volume levels... and good speaker placement.   Again, these are Party speakers... good for filling the room up, but not for buttery smooth, super accurate, ear-gasming 3D spatial audio.


 While there are a lot of Audiophile scams, and self-proclaimed audiophiles that have garbage setups... What I can tell you, is that once you hear what music is Supposed to sound like.. you can Never go back to generic speakers / headphones, ever again.   Its literally like the difference of watching a 15" Black and White tv... compared to an Imax 3D theatre film.

 Also, there is no greater upgrade to your quality of life, than a high quality audio system.   I remember watching Terminator 2, on my 13"? commodore amiga monitor... from my laserdisc.  The image may have been small, and nowhere near the quality of modern bluray image in 4k... but what made the experience magical, was my surround sound system.  Hearing CD quality audio, like crunch of the Skull being stepped on by a terminator... or the lasers blast from front and back... all around the room... was simply incredible.   And that was when I only had mediocre speakers.


 I always suggest staring with an Audiophile level headphone, because finding an affordable audiophile speaker set, can be a lot more challenging, and the results of a speaker cant match the accuracy of a headphones smaller, lighter, drivers.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 06:24:44 am by Xiaou2 »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2021, 07:20:12 am »
I didn't say they were going away but much like the humble cd it's firmly in the position of only being used by a certain percentage of the population.

I think you are looking at the situation sort of funny.  Computers are and always have been tools.  There have always been those who have needed to be able to use those tools in more than one location.  Thanks to higher accessibility, and probably to a large part "American Excess", laptops have been sought out over desktops by many who do not need them, and either willingly or unwittingly make many sacrifices as a result.  You wouldn't try to cut your winter's wood with a cordless electric chainsaw, but I see a lot of folks who buy lower-end laptops expecting to do similarly out of character things with them.  When that realization hits and/or the device develops an issue, the laptop either gets shelved and seldom used, or it gets landfilled.  Usually the latter, because the cost is usually too high to make it worth repairing/upgrading them even if possible to do so.     

But all of that aside, a CD isn't a tool, it's a medium.   It's the blade on the saw, and we are really talking about the saw.  The fact that HF has helped to make decent quality tools more accessible to the masses has little to no bearing on the future viability of the tools which are used for real production.  It just means that more people are likely to purchase those tools, when they may not have were this not the case.  It also means that a fair percentage of those same people will realize that their needs aren't being met by those less-capable (and sometimes more costly in the long-run) tools and will move toward something more suited to the work they are doing.  If there is a budget involved and portability isn't part of that criteria, it will be the big metal box.

Here's a good article on the subject.  Be sure to read to the end.


An with respect I think you are assuming guys like us represent the average computer usage of the population when we don't.   99.9% of the non-gamers/streamers out there just use their pc for solitaire, browsing the web, and occasionally opening an office document.    So for average usage (ie not us) even a chrome book is sufficient.   Like Osirus pointed out, this isn't the early 2000s.... a low end pc will last teh average consumer a long assed time and when they "upgrade" to a chromebook, laptop or whatever and the 20 year old apps they are still using run fine they won't see the need for a desktop.

 This is a bunch of Tripe.

 99% of NON GAMERS?   What kind of laughable argument is that?!    Most anyone under 40, is playing a bunch of games on their PCs.  Anything from mame, to RPGs, to various 2D games on Steam, to big name 3D titles... as well as VR.

 The recent Graphics card shortages, are not merely because of supply problems, and crypto miners...  Its because public demand has risen by multiples.  Thats what happens, when more and more youth, get into gaming... and the existing gamers, are still into gaming (upgrades).  The demands will keep climbing.

 Also... countless artists in fact, DO use PCs (myself included).  For 3d modeling, photoshop work, illustration, and freehand drawing... using a wacom based drawing tablet.  Realize that most artists are POOR... and cant afford the high price point of Apple Products and Apple $oftware.   You can easily find tons of high quality software for the PC... for FREE, Cheap, or in desperate measures: Sailing the Seas... Arrrrrr

 FYI - Android is basically useless for many artists.  The devices are way too underpowered... and many of the more advanced programs will Lag badly when you try to draw something with them.  Especially if the drawing gets too detailed / large in filesize... and or the specific tools are also eating too much of the processor up.   Even the Apple Pro tablets were lagging in the former generation.. that I tested.


 PC VR is going to take off even more dramatically, once prices drop.. and the tech gets more robust.  While there are Stand-Alone VR units.. they are far too under-powered, for the kind of games and experiences that a high powered gaming PC can achieve.  In fact, even a mid-spec PC could probably Trounce these stand-alone units.


 While Laptops and tablets have been gaining more power than they used to have... they still do not compare with the power of even a low-spec PC.  The majority of Laptops (affordable), are built for saving power.  They are often not that fast, have small amounts of ram, and do not have much in terms of upgradability, either.   They are also less reliable than they used to be, due to the lead-free soldier.


 Also.. many companies have tried to get the masses to buy into streaming-games from custom servers... such as "Stadia".  They are failures... because people do not have fast enough internet bandwidth, to be able to have a nearly lag-free experience.  While a casual player that plays a slow exploring type of game... might be fine with it... the majority of gamers, wont stand for losing.. due to lag issues.


 With the current state of the US, and how slow infrastructure rolls out... there wont be an acceptable mass internet speed... for like two more decades.  And by that time... its possible that the speeds that were attained, will be too slow for the new graphical / intensity  demands.
( I cant even get a 1080p stream to work, with my current connection)

 Now... as chip manufacturers increase CPU power, and start putting more powerful graphics processing directly into the CPU... things may start to shift towards laptops and tablets... for a larger portion of personal usage.


 The  Elite "Theorists", are way off the mark, in terms of realistic time-frames, and specs.   They are Clueless.

fallacy

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2021, 04:00:45 pm »
The price of graphics cards is because of crypto full stop. I mean you are literally talking about paying a couple thousands for a card and then having it run for 4 to 6 months and still paying it self off. There has never been a situation quite like this before, to top it off if it is not like people are only limited to one or a few they can do this with, they can mine with as many cards as they can get their hands on. I don't know what computer gamers are going to do anymore, the only saving grace when this happened last time was when crypto took a dump and stayed down for a while, I don't think Crypto is going to take that kind of dump again.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2021, 06:03:15 pm »
Howard just wanted to know if he should isolate his Subwoofer....and now the question is ..the price of graphics cards.. FS.

@ Howard, your question was best answered by BadMouth a few posts after your own  :lol  He builds speakers and has a good understanding of the topic.

@ Xiaou2, your posts are long and full of truths, half truths, and a fair bit of bunk.  E.g. getting a set of audiophile headphones is the most affordable way to hear music as the artist intended.  I agree, very true! $250+ headphones sounding better than $100K speakers, no. 

Wall of text to follow?  ::)

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2021, 06:12:32 pm »
I've been using the same set of Altec Lancing speakers and subwoofer since i got them in the 90's.
they still sound great to me.

they look like this.


I have two of these for some reason.
I think one of the better SB cards came with them.


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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2021, 06:56:33 pm »
Yeah they make good speakers.   I've bought several over the years for various rigs and I've never had issues.   

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #34 on: September 16, 2021, 01:37:37 pm »
This is why high level competitive FPS players tend use brands like Sennheiser... because they
can tell approximately where an enemy is, in 3d space.  Instantly, and with great accuracy.

That's the only reason I use them.  The Playstation Gold wireless headphones do the job well enough.  But if I'm listening to music, I prefer not to have something strapped on my head.  A bass drum is also just not the same when approximated by a tiny driver.  For movies (and music) , I have a hodgepodge 7.1 setup...a couple of older Bose in parallel for the center, Pioneer S910's for front, A Cerwin Vega powered sub and the rest is filled in with Dayton Audio B652's.  All of it remnants of the past, or picked up cheap here and there.  Sounds good to me and that's all I care about.

Quote
Well, some Mods are nice.. but there are a lot of them that are merely just low quality "Samples". 

Tracker/MODS can be synthesis, samples, or both.  Some of the best C-64 music was made on Tracker software. 

Quote
Now.. heres the thing... The speakers you were listening too... may have been capable of better sound... BUT... the guy may have jacked the midrange EQ way the hell up, for example.

Possible, but a lot of those "audiophile" systems emphasize mid to high frequencies.  If you want detail, that's where it's at.  Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.  But the source material is important.  A system designed for classical music/jazz might sound spectacular for those genres, but they usually don't fare well for more contemporary material. It's all about having the right tool for the job.  I like many different genres of music (I think Jazz is the only one I really dislike  :lol), thus my "Jack of all trades, master of none" comment.

Quote
This does not make any sense, in terms of how Audio actually works.

That's the beauty of my approach to audio.  It doesn't matter how it works...  I think you missed the "If it sounds good to you" prerequisite.  Everyone isn't an audiophile, and even some who claim to be have done nothing more than thrown away money for something they are unable (or unwilling) to fully appreciate.  It's often akin to paying someone to come to your house and adjust your high-end AV equipment to cinema specs, and twiddling the color settings a day after he leaves.  Touch those knobs once, and you could have saved a fortune  :lol
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 02:44:18 pm by RandyT »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #35 on: September 16, 2021, 06:03:26 pm »
Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.

Ima have to disagree with this. As someone who has owned a range of audio gear over the years, I've noticed a distinct difference in the relative quality of respective equipment on the low end.

Good low end should be distinct and punchy. Bad low-end can sound muddy and muffled.

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #36 on: September 16, 2021, 06:06:14 pm »
Tracker/MOD music was the first thing on computers worthy of piping through a decent audio system.

IMHO that honor belongs to the Roland MT-32 sound module. I'm astounded how good old Sierra games sound hooked up to one of those bad boys.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 07:41:09 pm by shponglefan »

shponglefan

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #37 on: September 16, 2021, 06:13:23 pm »
Personally, I tend to prefer listening to actual FM Synths.  Anything from the original c64 sid.. to the Sega Genesis  (Thunderforce II, Target Earth),  to actual people playing things on the Yamaha DX-7, DX-7 IID, etc. (Similar to the game sounds in Marble Madness)   As well as monkeying around with these FM Synth engines, in keyboard synth emulators.   Most Arcade games operate with a built in FM Synth chip... which is why they sound so damn Glorious.

Higher end FM synths like the Yamaha DX-series can sound quite nice. But the chips used for computer/arcade FM synth music were typically more limited. I do appreciate classic FM synthesis for its nostalgia value, but for quality-of-sound from that era external sample-based sound modules were the way to go.

Just compare the original Adlib FM sound versus the Roland MT-32. It's just no contest.






« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 06:48:03 pm by shponglefan »

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2021, 08:10:18 pm »
Even cheap speakers can do a pretty good job in that range with lower volumes and source material without a lot of cross over.

Ima have to disagree with this. As someone who has owned a range of audio gear over the years, I've noticed a distinct difference in the relative quality of respective equipment on the low end.

Good low end should be distinct and punchy. Bad low-end can sound muddy and muffled.
Eh, I spent money on Morel CAT308 tweeters and decent Morel woofers to build a pair of speakers for a dedicated listening area.  When all was said and done my reaction was... "for the volume levels I listen at, I could have got this sound out of $30  3/4 inch silk domes and Dayton Reference mids."  The Morel speakers would no doubt rule at higher volume levels, but I doubt they'll ever be driven hard enough to experience their full potential.  The lifelong dream of a dedicated listening room was fun to plan and build, but hasn't been utilized in 6 months. (those subs are on foam furniture pads btw)

 

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Re: Question about subwoofer isolation.
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2021, 08:25:33 pm »
Eh, I spent money on Morel CAT308 tweeters and decent Morel woofers to build a pair of speakers for a dedicated listening area.  When all was said and done my reaction was... "for the volume levels I listen at, I could have got this sound out of $30  3/4 inch silk domes and Dayton Reference mids."  The Morel speakers would no doubt rule at higher volume levels, but I doubt they'll ever be driven hard enough to experience their full potential.  The lifelong dream of a dedicated listening room was fun to plan and build, but hasn't been utilized in 6 months. (those subs are on foam furniture pads btw)

 

That's fair. It does come down to personal use and application (and listening environment).

FWIW, my own bias comes from my prior HT experience. I upgraded to an SVS PB-13 Ultra subwoofer and the sheer incredibleness of that monster has colored my perception of subwoofers and bass ever since. Having tasted the good stuff, it's hard to go back to anything else.