To Wico or not to Wico that is the question

[Funkleton]

Hi - brand new poster here .... and I'm going to ramble ..... I'm going to make a short simple question last a few paragraphs - enjoy it ... or suck it

It's taken me a while, but after 23ish years of fooling around with emulated games, I've finally come to the concusion that, in order to properly enjoy ( or even play at all )  the very best games of my youth - I need to invest some time, effort, and money in building dedicated control decks.

You'll forgive me for preaching to the choir on a site like this but.......
Without a nicely weighted spinner - emulating Tempest is a waste of time
Without a Trackball you can forget about Tekhan World Cup, Rampart, Centipede, Missile....ah feck it the list is too long
Without a flight stick AND a spinner (or an appropriate investment in genetic engineering to grow a third arm) emulating Mad Planets, Tron, and the Discs of Tron is an exercise in futility
And don't even get me started on Ikari warriors and Heavy Barrel

But for me, the peak of frustration is Defender

I've tried - oh Great Big Pink Universe Farting Pixie in the sky I've tried - to play Defender on various assortments of controllers and keyboards but it's JUST. NOT. THE SAME.

You need that authentic button and joystick layout to recreate the response and control that you could achieve as a competent player on the original hardware.

However as a first project, and with a wife and 2 motorbikes to support - the repro Wico 2-way sticks feel a little bit too rich for my blood right now - they cost about as much on their own as I was thinking about spending on the my whole first project.

So i'd like to reach out to the community and ask what kind of solutions they have come up to give a good simulacrum of the original Defender feel without necessarily sticking to the original joystick format.

Thanks - Funkleton Funk

[Gilrock]

I have an original Defender and still never became a competent player.   I've started to hate the game so much I toy with the idea of selling it.

For the joystick I'd use this:
https://www.jbgaming.co.uk/parts/2way-joystick/

If you can't afford it don't do this hobby.

[Scotty]

I myself and planning a dedicated Defender/Stargate control panel.  I bought the world's cheapest arcade joystick, the Zippy arcade stick.  Under $10 US, and comes with a 2/4/8 way restricter.  It is AMAZING!!!  I have only used it as a 2 way for a cocktail Space Invaders panel, but it looks and feels great!!  For $10 give it a try.  I am pretty sure you will be happy.

[Scotty]

I myself and planning a dedicated Defender/Stargate control panel.  I bought the world's cheapest arcade joystick, the Zippy arcade stick.  Under $10 US, and comes with a 2/4/8 way restricter.  It is AMAZING!!!  I have only used it as a 2 way for a cocktail Space Invaders panel, but it looks and feels great!!  For $10 give it a try.  I am pretty sure you will be happy.

[Mike A]

If you are serious about playing defender, DO NOT GET A ZIPPY.

[Mike A]

https://www.arcadeshop.com/i/405/joystick-williams-rebuild-kit.htm

Buy this and a stick and you can play Defender the way it is meant to be played.

The stick Gilrock linked to is expensive, but really fantastic. I have one.

[Gilrock]

I actually never used that "expensive" joystick I bought it 2 years ago and its still sitting in a box...lol.  I thought I was going to build a new control panel for Defender and I bought all the parts and never used them.  I've also bought those arcadeshop rebuild kits and even though it says "rebuild" you can buy a handle to go with it and make a new one.  I used 2 of them for the Joust I built.  It was nice having the Defender I could open up for reference.  I think if you look at my Joust build thread you can see some photos of how it gets installed under the panel.

[Gilrock]

Hmm...well I looked at my thread and apparently did not post a good photo of the underside of my panel.  If you decide you want to use them I could post a photo to help out.

[RandyT]

For game like Defender, you definitely do not want microswitches.  Not on the stick or the buttons.


I won't say it's an ideal solution, but the 2-way restrictor we offer on the Leaf-Pro sticks, which wasn't originally an option, exists only because we had many requests to make one for use with Defender.  It doesn't have the same feel as the original, and would require some hacking (literally) of the base to get the reverse button close to where it should be, but it's leaf-based and has a short/fast action.  You can't beat a specially designed replacement, but it's a reasonable alternative for tinkerers.  Now if I could just get more in stock

[csnow]

As one of the "must haves" from my youth, I bit the bullet and bought a Stargate/Defender.  The controls and their madness is part of the essence of the game.  I would head over to KLOV and post a request for an intact and populated control panel to use for your build.  Anything less will be....well  LESS.

[Funkleton]

For game like Defender, you definitely do not want microswitches.  Not on the stick or the buttons.


I won't say it's an ideal solution, but the 2-way restrictor we offer on the Leaf-Pro sticks, which wasn't originally an option, exists only because we had many requests to make one for use with Defender.  It doesn't have the same feel as the original, and would require some hacking (literally) of the base to get the reverse button close to where it should be, but it's leaf-based and has a short/fast action.  You can't beat a specially designed replacement, but it's a reasonable alternative for tinkerers.  Now if I could just get more in stock

I had seen that stick recommended on another site - does look like a nice stick in general - especially for things like Robotron.

ArcadeWorldUK here in the UK offers something that looks very similar - I was thinking that simply restricting it to 2 way operation via the slot cut in the board would do the trick?

And yes - I will almost certainly buy a proper repro stick as time goes on.
It's not so much a case of not being able to afford it, but more to do with having neglected certainly husbandly duties in favour of restoring a rather lovely 1978 Honda CB400F ( and by that I mean not retiling the kitchen and bathroom - clean your dirty minds!!)
So I need to keep any new projects quick, dirty, cheap, and on the down-low until I have regained favour

[RandyT]

ArcadeWorldUK here in the UK offers something that looks very similar - I was thinking that simply restricting it to 2 way operation via the slot cut in the board would do the trick?

Looks are where the similarity ends.  The Leaf-Pro is a very modified version of that stick, using custom arcade-quality leaf switches with gold-plated contact points, and several other custom-made parts to improve performance/feel.  We also have to make some tweaks to the pivot section of the base.  As they come stock, they are of questionable quality.  The stock "switches" are just two pieces of spring steel, with no contact points on them. 

But sure, you can make a slot (or diamond, or circle) in your panel for any stick to restrict movement.  The only real question is, barring the use of a CNC router, is how accurate will it be, and how long will it be before the action becomes sloppy due to wear?  Wood is soft and compresses easily.

[Jimbo]

ArcadeWorldUK here in the UK offers something that looks very similar - I was thinking that simply restricting it to 2 way operation via the slot cut in the board would do the trick?

Looks are where the similarity ends.  The Leaf-Pro is a very modified version of that stick, using custom arcade-quality leaf switches with gold-plated contact points, and several other custom-made parts to improve performance/feel.  We also have to make some tweaks to the pivot section of the base.  As they come stock, they are of questionable quality.  The stock "switches" are just two pieces of spring steel, with no contact points on them. 

That's not on... promoting your stick to someone who lives in a country you won't ship to!

[RandyT]

That's not on... promoting your stick to someone who lives in a country you won't ship to!

Not promoting.  Just clearing up a possible misconception for anyone who might be reading the thread.   

[Dissent]

So what did you decide @funkletown?  I'm in a similar boat.  I have @RandyT's 2-way stick for Galaxian now but it doesn't 'feel right' for my Defender needs. 

I'm seriously eyeballing those 2-Way Rebuild kits (with Williams Yellow and Blue) for my Joust needs.  Does it come with the rubber bits as well as the cad plated steel bits?  I'm not sure if I can find a handle the right size for Defender but I'm really wanting to go that route too.  @Gilrock, what length stick did you use for your Defender build?   

I have come across the 'expensive stick solution' from https://www.jbgaming.co.uk/parts/2way-joystick/ and I still have 1 sitting in my cart (for about 5 hours now)...not sure to go with the rebuild kits or the JB Gaming stick for Defender.  Want to sell your unused one @Gilrock?

My current panel is actually 3D Printed and is only 4mm thick so I'll have to fabricate/print a mounting bracket regardless.

[Gilrock]

@Gilrock, what length stick did you use for your Defender build?   

Well like I said I bought most of the parts but never built that panel...yet.  I couldn't decide if I really wanted to replace the cigarette burned panel.   But for Joust I bought the ones from ArcadeShop that are listed as Williams ball handles and say they are compatible with the game.  They have a "Williams/Taito Red Joystick Ball Handle" that says its compatible with Defender.

I have come across the 'expensive stick solution' from https://www.jbgaming.co.uk/parts/2way-joystick/ and I still have 1 sitting in my cart (for about 5 hours now)...not sure to go with the rebuild kits or the JB Gaming stick for Defender.  Want to sell your unused one @Gilrock?

I tend to hold onto things with the fear that I'll want one as soon as I sell it.

[Jimbo]

I tend to hold onto things with the fear that I'll want one as soon as I sell it.

I can't even count how many times that's happened to me!

[Dissent]

Thanks for the feedback @Gilrock and no worries, I've done that more times than I can count. 

I bought the rebuild kit and the short red stick that is linked on the product page.  I assembled the kit and it is perfect.  Even with the new leaf switches, it seems like there should be a rubber bumper or something "firm" to center the stick but is it just the leaf switches that keep the stick centered?

[Gilrock]

I'm going from memory but now that you mention it I believe I ran into a similar issue where the Arcadeshop sticks seemed too "loose".  I realized the originals had a stiff metal piece behind the leaf spring that kept it tight.  I then realized the 2-way stick from jbgaming had those stiff backing plates as well so I contacted him and asked if I could buy just the switches and he hooked me up with 4 of them.  I'm pretty sure I had also found somewhere online that was selling just those metal pieces because you can just add them inline with the switch.  I'll see if I can locate what I did and check my Joust thread to see if I talked about it.

[Gilrock]

Ok yep this is all documented in my Joust build thread.  Start at reply #10 where I started mentioning the problem.  Reply #16 has the link to where you can buy the steel springs you need.  Reply#19 shows a photo of all the pieces of the switches from the jbgaming sticks which also had an electrical isolation layer.  So I did not buy the springs from reply #16 I got the guy at jbgaming to hook me up with what I needed.

http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,161953.msg1708034.html#msg1708034

[Dissent]

Thank you @Gilrock!   Great write up, thank you for the quick reply.  I've purchased a set of leaf springs, should be here soon.  For the insulators (are these really needed?) I can 3D Print a set based on the Wico spring pads I've used for my 4-way sticks.

[Gilrock]

I haven't really analyzed it to know if the insulators are necessary.  I guess it would be ok if the switches are wired so that the side touching the middle was a common ground.

[Dissent]

That's how I was planning on wiring it up, I'll print the insulators regardless, less metal-to-metal wear too (less lube).
Those cabinets (Joust & Robotron) look amazing...can't wait to get there.

[thomashenry]

ArcadeWorldUK here in the UK offers something that looks very similar - I was thinking that simply restricting it to 2 way operation via the slot cut in the board would do the trick?

But sure, you can make a slot (or diamond, or circle) in your panel for any stick to restrict movement.  The only real question is, barring the use of a CNC router, is how accurate will it be, and how long will it be before the action becomes sloppy due to wear?  Wood is soft and compresses easily.

Accuracy would not be an issue for a competent woodworker.  Wood is not that soft. I can't imagine the slot becoming sloppy due to wood compression as a result of the joystick acting on it.

[RandyT]

Accuracy would not be an issue for a competent woodworker.  Wood is not that soft. I can't imagine the slot becoming sloppy due to wood compression as a result of the joystick acting on it.

While I won't argue the first point, other than to say that not everyone who might attempt such a thing is "competent" enough to hold such tight tolerances in a piece of plywood, the second statement has me baffled. 

Some restrictors were made from steel and still wore out from the stick riding against it.  A slot for a two-way is a worst case scenario.  You are trying to eliminate all other directions, while not binding in precisely two.  It doesn't take a whole lot of compression before you start feeling "slop" in other directions.

[thomashenry]

Accuracy would not be an issue for a competent woodworker.  Wood is not that soft. I can't imagine the slot becoming sloppy due to wood compression as a result of the joystick acting on it.

While I won't argue the first point, other than to say that not everyone who might attempt such a thing is "competent" enough to hold such tight tolerances in a piece of plywood, the second statement has me baffled. 

Some restrictors were made from steel and still wore out from the stick riding against it.  A slot for a two-way is a worst case scenario.  You are trying to eliminate all other directions, while not binding in precisely two.  It doesn't take a whole lot of compression before you start feeling "slop" in other directions.

If you chop out your slot for the two way stick so that it's properly tight to the stick shaft, and there's no horizontal play in the stick, then the player is not able to 'ram' the stick into the sides make the slot bigger over time.

As an aside, I'd use solid wood for the panel rather than plywood, oriented with the grain running horizontally. Wood does not compress along the grain very readily.

[RandyT]

If you chop out your slot for the two way stick so that it's properly tight to the stick shaft, and there's no horizontal play in the stick, then the player is not able to 'ram' the stick into the sides make the slot bigger over time.

As an aside, I'd use solid wood for the panel rather than plywood, oriented with the grain running horizontally. Wood does not compress along the grain very readily.

It's not necessary to "ram" the stick to compress the wood.  Simply applying lateral force while actuating the stick is enough.  It's easy enough to test, though. Just use a sample of the wood you intend to use, measure the width with a micrometer and then apply the forces it could be subjected to a few thousand times, taking into consideration the amount of leverage which can be applied by the otherwise unrestricted joystick.  Then compare measurements from before and after

But yes, a very hard wood with a tight grain would fare much better than plywood, MDF, pine, etc. if attempting something like this.