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Author Topic: 720 controller / U-HID  (Read 744 times)

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spisi

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720 controller / U-HID
« on: October 08, 2020, 06:57:43 pm »
I just impulse bought a 720 controller ;D.  Good news is it works, bad news is it's not working correctly.  He spins too fast, one rotation of the controller makes the skateboard guy spin like 3 rotations or so.  I have the controller set to "real" in mame and dialed down all the sensitivity settings....  Where do I go from here?  Thanks in advance for any help.  I even went in to the .cfg file and changed the sensitivity to .333, but that didn't work.  MAME didn't recognize the fraction and set it back to 50  :(

Anybody know who "Wolf of Gaming" is?

« Last Edit: October 08, 2020, 09:21:46 pm by spisi »

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2020, 04:27:30 am »
Your 720 controller (144/rotation) is giving you ~3 screen rotations per controller rotation?   :dizzy:

DarthMarino used a TurboTwist2 (1200/rotation) and set the sensitivity to 12.




Scott

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2020, 05:42:52 am »
Doesn't make sense...

BadMouth

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2020, 06:04:41 am »
Post a screen grab of how the controls are mapped.

Is this the standard unadulterated official MAME build from mamedev.org?

Are you launching it through a front-end that alters settings?


EDIT: an oddball thing that may or may not have anything to do with it: enable multimouse. 
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 06:10:18 am by BadMouth »

Mike A

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2020, 06:36:42 am »
Where did you buy a 720 stick? They are not cheap.

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2020, 09:15:01 am »
MAME 1.96, no frontend...I'll try enabling multimouse...$300 on ebay

DarthMarino

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2020, 11:28:08 am »
Do you have both wheels hooked up and mapped separately in MAME? I would just focus on the main wheel only first and deal with the centering wheel later. I didn't have the real deal when I made the video.

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2020, 01:55:54 pm »
Solved!  I was using the Z axis on the U-HID since X and Y were allocated to two steering wheels.  I disabled the wheels and tried the Y axis...nothing at all  ???  I then tried the X axis...Voila!  Works perfectly!  :D  Go figure...  I'll talk with Andy from Ultimarc about why it didn't work on the Z and Y axis'  But for now all is good!  Thanks everybody for your input, it's greatly appreciated!

BadMouth

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 11:11:41 am »
I remember the Z-axis behaving differently when I tried to use it on an Opti-Wiz, but didn't remember the details.  (been over a decade ago)
A search came up with this post:
It seems like somewhere I read that the scroll wheel was 3x more sensitive than XY or something. 

Actually, it's about 4x.  This is the doings of Windows and the way it handles the Z.  MAME used to handle it properly, prior to the RAW input update.  I understand that a patch is still floating around for later versions.

Poll rates have nothing to do with this, and you do not need to mess around with any of that for a TT2 to work correctly.

RandyT
http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/topic,117634.msg1246580.html#msg1246580

...so it is Windows and MAME treating the axis differently, not the input device.

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 12:55:28 pm »
The problem with that theory is that the math for Spisi's description of his first try doesn't add up.   :banghead:

DM used a TT2 (1200/rotation) for 1 on-screen rotation with sensitivity set to 12.

Spisi used an original controller (144/rotation) for 3 on-screen rotations with the sensitivity set to 1(?) -- the sensitivity settng is implied but not stated in the OP.
- That's lower res, more movement, and lower sensitivity than DM's setup.

Assuming that those numbers are correct, the difference in spinner resolution is 8.33x,the difference in rotation is 3x, and the difference in sensitivity is 12x.

8.33 x 3 x 12 = 300x difference.

Even if using the Z-axis provides a 4x boost, that's still a 75x difference.

Either some setting(s) in Windows and/or MAME caused that massive difference or Spisi's observations/description were inaccurate.   :dunno


Scott

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 01:15:18 pm »
Would setting it to "real" override the sensitivity setting?

Windows mouse scroll speed maybe?

I dunno.

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2020, 02:22:54 pm »
Would setting it to "real" override the sensitivity setting?
Good question.   :cheers:

Looks like MAME keeps track of separate sensitivity settings for each "Game Configuration" option.  (Tested on MAMEUIFX v0.152.)

1. Set configuration  to "spinner".
- Default sensitivity is 12.
- TT2 gives the expected 1:1 response.

2. Change the sensitivity in "spinner" from 12 to 36.
- TT2 gives the expected 3:1 response.

3. Change configuration to "real".
- Default sensitivity is 50.
- TT2 gives the expected ~4:1 response.

4. Change the sensitivity in "real" from 50 to 24.
- TT2 gives the expected 2:1 response.

5. Change configuration back to"spinner".
- Previous "spinner" sensitivity (36) is restored.

6. Change configuration back to"real".
- Previous "real" sensitivity (24) is restored.

Windows mouse scroll speed maybe?
That was the main setting I was thinking about.


Scott

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2020, 03:46:55 pm »
Windows scroll speed shouldn't effect mame as mouse acceleration isn't taken into account with mame's usual polling methods.

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 07:53:42 am »
So is there a patch for MAME to fix the Z-axis???

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2020, 12:39:27 pm »
So is there a patch for MAME to fix the Z-axis???
I haven't had to deal with this issue myself, but there appear to be two approaches:

1. IIRC years ago someone made a patch that took the Windows mouse Z-axis and divided by 4, but you had to compile a custom version of MAME.

2. Enabling multimouse in mame.ini allows MAME to take mouse data directly from the device instead of running it through Windows where the 4x multiplier is applied.
------------
Whichever approach you choose, you'll need two axes for your steering wheels and two axes for your 720 controller. (rotation and calibration)
- Not sure how many mouse axes the U-HID can handle so you might need another optical encoder.   :dunno

  72 tooth rotation encoder wheel:


  2 gap (1 tooth + the rest is solid) calibration encoder wheel:


Pics from https://jstookey.com/arcade/720/720-pictures.php.

Pretty sure you'll need to max out the sensitivity for the calibration axis (and maybe change some other settings) to ensure that your skater is automatically and fully re-aligned to the "up" direction when the calibration wheel gaps pass through the optos.

- Other settings in the "Analog Controls" menu that might be relevant:
-- Positional Digital Speed = 0 ?
-- Positional Sensitivity = 100 ?
(Idea borrowed from the mechanical rotary joystick setttings here where one click needs to equal one rotational step.)

- Once you confirm which menu items and values make it work properly, please post all of them here for the next guy.   ;D


Scott

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2020, 10:13:42 pm »
I'm just sticking with the x axis and the standard settings when you set the controller to "real".  I'd like to fix the z axis but it's not a priority at the moment  :)

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2020, 12:02:18 am »
I'm just sticking with the x axis and the standard settings when you set the controller to "real".
:banghead:    :banghead:    :banghead:

If you only use the X-axis 72 tooth encoder wheel, it is no different than using a normal spinner.

- The current position is relative to the direction the controller was pointing when the game initializes.
i.e. If the game initializes as though the stick is pointed at 12 o'clock but it was really pointing at 4 o'clock, the skater will be facing 120 degrees CCW from the stick direction.

- There's no way for the game to ever know or correct which direction the controller is pointing in a single-axis spinner setup.

How do you intend to correct the guaranteed orientation errors that will result from not using the calibration encoder wheel on a second axis?

Seems like if it's worth it to spend that much money on an original, dedicated, single-game controller, it would be worth the extra bit of effort to get that controller working properly for that single game.  YMMV.   :dunno


Scott

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2020, 03:05:35 pm »
Hmmmm....what I did was set up a button that set the skater guy due north while holding the him due north with the controller and it would be fine the whole game until you exit out...When I get more time on my hands I'll try to set up the second axis, maybe I'll use the y axis  ;)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2020, 06:39:27 pm by spisi »

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2020, 09:04:09 am »
So, I played around with this over the weekend.  The skater only moves when the encoder for movement is connected to the Y axis and the encoder for centering is connected to the X axis.  Problem is he is still not centering himself...  I switched the axis' and the skater would not turn at all.  I tried the centering on the Z axis and again no movement...  I tried the movement on the Z axis and centering on the X and you guessed it, nothing.  Maybe my controller is broken???
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:43:34 am by spisi »

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2020, 10:58:35 am »
Problem is he is still not centering himself... 
That's where maxxing out the sensitivity settings for the centering/calibration axis comes in.
- Based on my earlier experiments, the default settings are not going to fully center the skater.
Pretty sure you'll need to max out the sensitivity for the calibration axis (and maybe change some other settings) to ensure that your skater is automatically and fully re-aligned to the "up" direction when the calibration wheel gaps pass through the optos.

- Other settings in the "Analog Controls" menu that might be relevant:
-- Positional Digital Speed = 0 ?
-- Positional Sensitivity = 100 ?
(Idea borrowed from the mechanical rotary joystick setttings here where one click needs to equal one rotational step.)

Maybe my controller is broken???
Not if it works with a specific combination of axes.

It's probably just a case of MAME seeing inputs from both the rotation and centering/calibration axes at the same time or forgetting to set all of the "INC" and "DEC" inputs to "none".

The skater only moves when the encoder for movement is connected to the Y axis and the encoder for centering is connected to the X axis.
You may need to use this one-at-a-time procedure to properly assign axes in MAME.

1. Verify that the centering/calibration axis gaps are aligned with the optos when the joystick is in the "up" position.



2. Disconnect the two data lines for the rotation axis or disable them in the U-HID.
- Do this so MAME will only see the centering/calibration axis when you move the controller.

3. Assign the centering/calibration axis in MAME.

4. Position the controller in the lower half of the range of motion -- away from where the centering/calibration axis will trigger.

5. Re-connect the two data lines for the rotation axis or enable them in the U-HID.
- MAME can only see the rotation axis when you move the controller in the lower half of the range of motion.

6. Assign the rotation axis in MAME.

7. Adjust sensitivity (and other settings?) on the centering/calibration axis.

8. Press F2 to access the 720 PCB game menu and run the controller calibration procedure. (optional?)


Scott

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2020, 11:30:46 am »
I'll test it out tomorrow. Thanks!

spisi

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Re: 720 controller / U-HID
« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2020, 10:42:56 pm »
So, it's working kind of...it's setting him up at 10:30 instead of 12:00, slightly northwest.  I only played with it for a bit, but I'm getting closer! It seems the two teeth on the centering disc are facing 12:00 when the controller is in the up position, and 6:00 when in the down position, not in line with the optos...I really don't want to take this apart  :(