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Author Topic: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.  (Read 606 times)

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abispac

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tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« on: March 26, 2020, 10:06:54 am »
So ive seen several videos on how you can plug your rgb outputs directly to a tv  chassis chip and get a working crt monitor, some need adjustments  and some dont, the part i dont get is, if an arcade game is 15khz , can it be plugged in directly? as the videos i saw they plugged consoles of thos 60 in 1 boards, plus, if i use a computer with mame, would i need to get those 5khz out like with groovymame and the drivers or will it work without those? thanks for any help.

I found some tvs on the trash and will be experimenting with them.

Mike A

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2020, 10:12:34 am »
Fix the arcade monitor you are working on first.

---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. You have started and dropped like 4 projects since I ordered parts for the monitor I am working on.

abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2020, 12:24:33 pm »
Fix the arcade monitor you are working on first.

---steaming pile of meadow muffin---. You have started and dropped like 4 projects since I ordered parts for the monitor I am working on.
well , im just asking for information, im not currently working on it, plus if you cant do more than one project at a time ,that aint my problem, dont project yourself on me. And also , im on quarentine, so i cant go out to buy the parts i need, and not everyone can afford shipping, so i do what i want, and thanks for just bumping my topics... :cheers:
O yeah, yesterday i returned the chinese chassis for a working one, now i just need to fix the pacman monitor once i find an iso and the transistor that i need to change, so that be on hold for at least 15 days, so ill probably work on this rca crt tv, its currently working apparently dosnt need much work, so yes, thats next.

bobbyb13

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2020, 03:03:15 pm »
Mike A (and literally everyone here) is actually trying to be helpful so I would suggest being mindful of that in your replies.

To successfully do what you are talking about with a consumer TV practically requires being a crt technician/engineer with a lot of experience.

I'm sharper than the average bowling ball and 6 months of research has taught me I'm not ready yet.
Deepest rabbit hole in the hobby as far as I'm concerned.

By the time you sort out how to properly use any consumer TV as an arcade monitor we will all be out of quarantine.

Get on Mr. Gore's internets and start searching because no one anywhere can give you an all situation step by step solution to make it happen.
Why'd you kick me?
Where's your brain?

Mike A

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2020, 03:07:52 pm »
Eh. He can feel free to ignore me. I just throw my opinions out there. If he can tackle a bunch of projects all at once then more power to him.

abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2020, 04:46:21 pm »
Mike A (and literally everyone here) is actually trying to be helpful so I would suggest being mindful of that in your replies.
I respectfully disagree, please read every single mesage and youll see theres not a single one tryin to help from Mike A

To successfully do what you are talking about with a consumer TV practically requires being a crt technician/engineer with a lot of experience.
yes and no, i had successfully fixed some monitors in the past with the help from this and other places and im no near enginer.

get on Mr. Gore's internets and start searching because no one anywhere can give you an all situation step by step solution to make it happen.
i know that, i never asked for anything like that.
And if you are not going to help i ask you to please stop posting useless comments on my post. But its the internet ,you are free to do whatever you want, and ill just keep an eye for actual useful help, thanks and have a nice day.

Mike A

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2020, 04:55:44 pm »
I resent that. I posted the link to an isolation transformer in you isolation transformer thread.

What is this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on Mike A for being helpful day?

My advice to slow the hell down is good advice. You don't have to listen to it.


abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2020, 05:20:30 pm »
I resent that. I posted the link to an isolation transformer in you isolation transformer thread.

What is this ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- on Mike A for being helpful day?

My advice to slow the hell down is good advice. You don't have to listen to it.
Sorry about that, i take back what i wrote. But besides that i really dont dig your sense of humor, sorry about that too.

Mike A

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2020, 05:21:36 pm »
That's fine. I get it. I will dial that back if I have something helpful to post in your threads.

buttersoft

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2020, 08:41:20 pm »
Thank you for both trying to be civil. It can get frustrating when a new member pokes their head up and makes a ton of threads which probably could have been done in two. Most of us have done it ourselves, i certainly have in a few places so i'm not judging, just pointing out it doesn't stop you shaking your head each time it happens. And enough ppl hhelped us that we'd like to be able to pass the favour along :)

abispac, if i understand what you're asking correctly...

Most but not all CRT-TV's with an On-Screen-Display (OSD, being the channel number or volume coming up one the screen itself) can be hacked to take an RGB input if they do not already have one. This is often a straightforward process, but it does involve a bit of reading and figuring things out. The gist of it is that you find a likely candidate set, google the model number to find the service manual and examine the schematics around the jungle chip (main video and deflection chip) and the micom (microcontroller that displays the OSD and remembers things like language and volume settings when the set is off). If you can't find the service manual, open the set and read off the models of the two largest IC's and google their datasheets.

Usually the micom will feed RGB and a blanking signal into the jungle chip (and sync if no external source is connected, but nevermind that). The blanking pin is often called Y or blk or a few other things, and is usually next to the RGB input pins on the jungle. Blanking turns off other inputs to the jungle chip, allowing the signals coming into the RGB inputs to be the only ones output to the display. To display your RGB signal, you connect ~3.5V to the blanking pin (from 3V to 5V should work, and can often be found nearby on the chassis, or from your video source) and then connect your RGB signals, sometimes through small capacitors to remove any DC bias. Sync goes into the composite-video port where you used to plug in your yellow AV cable.

The best place to look into the above is the shmups RGB hacking thread. There are mods recorded for a hundred sets at least on there. You will certainly want to look into MarkOZLAD's OSD mux method as this means you can keep the OSD fully working and use your RGB at the same time, no need for a switch or anything.

https://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=56155

So far, so good. With a PC source outputting 15kHz (yes, crt_emudriver is by far the best tool for this if you're on Windows 10) you would simply plug in your 0.7Vp-p standard RGBS from your PC, perhaps with 75R terminations if needed. The ArcadeOSD and VMM utilities in crt_emudriver will allow you to adjust your modelines to the horizontal size and position required. Most sets have H-pos but not H-size adjustments, so this feature is really nice.
 
An Arcade board outputs RGBS at higher levels, normally 2 to 4V peak-to-peak. These levels can be attenuated using resistors or possibly something like a THS7314/7316/7374 amp used as a line driver, to get the 0.7Vp-p or in some cases 0.5Vp-p the jungle chip expects. And you won't be able to adjust the horizontal size if the TV doesn't have that ability - the service manual of most sets will list the items in the service menu, so you might be able to check.

It must be possible to modify the horizontal scan of any set, but I'm not sure what the principle is. I've only looked at it briefly. Modifying the vertical size is much easier to fudge, but most sets have this option in the service menu anyway. Just make sure you have the remote for any set you want to try, and can get into the service menu.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2020, 08:51:06 pm by buttersoft »

abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2020, 10:54:08 pm »
Thank you buttersoft sir, ill post results in the future.

yotsuya

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2020, 11:30:52 pm »
For the record, abispac is not a new member. Hes been away, but hes been here for a long while.
***Build what you dig, bro. Build what you dig.***

bobbyb13

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2020, 02:24:35 am »
Mike A (and literally everyone here) is actually trying to be helpful so I would suggest being mindful of that in your replies.
I respectfully disagree, please read every single mesage and youll see theres not a single one tryin to help from Mike A

Absolutely not true.

To successfully do what you are talking about with a consumer TV practically requires being a crt technician/engineer with a lot of experience.
yes and no, i had successfully fixed some monitors in the past with the help from this and other places and im no near enginer.

Fixing a monitor is considerably easier than what you are asking about.

get on Mr. Gore's internets and start searching because no one anywhere can give you an all situation step by step solution to make it happen.
i know that, i never asked for anything like that.
And if you are not going to help i ask you to please stop posting useless comments on my post. But its the internet ,you are free to do whatever you want, and ill just keep an eye for actual useful help, thanks and have a nice day.

I (and others) have offered helpful advice to you in various posts previously- which I suppose also didn't catch that eye.

I will however respect your wishes and resist offering you any advice in the future.

All the best
Why'd you kick me?
Where's your brain?

abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2020, 09:17:16 am »
Mike A (and literally everyone here) is actually trying to be helpful so I would suggest being mindful of that in your replies.
I respectfully disagree, please read every single mesage and youll see theres not a single one tryin to help from Mike A

Absolutely not true.

To successfully do what you are talking about with a consumer TV practically requires being a crt technician/engineer with a lot of experience.
yes and no, i had successfully fixed some monitors in the past with the help from this and other places and im no near enginer.

Fixing a monitor is considerably easier than what you are asking about.

get on Mr. Gore's internets and start searching because no one anywhere can give you an all situation step by step solution to make it happen.
i know that, i never asked for anything like that.
And if you are not going to help i ask you to please stop posting useless comments on my post. But its the internet ,you are free to do whatever you want, and ill just keep an eye for actual useful help, thanks and have a nice day.

I (and others) have offered helpful advice to you in various posts previously- which I suppose also didn't catch that eye.

I will however respect your wishes and resist offering you any advice in the future.

All the best
its a free world. God bless you sir.

abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2020, 10:01:45 pm »
With a PC source outputting 15kHz (yes, crt_emudriver is by far the best tool for this if you're on Windows 10) you would simply plug in your 0.7Vp-p standard RGBS from your PC, perhaps with 75R terminations if needed. The ArcadeOSD and VMM utilities in crt_emudriver will allow you to adjust your modelines to the horizontal size and position required. Most sets have H-pos but not H-size adjustments, so this feature is really nice.
 
I allready found the service manual for this old 3 inch tv, and i kind of understand what to do, i just got a question for you, can you elaborate or explain to a fool like me what do you mean with plug 0.7vp-p or  the 75r? im using a regular vga breakout cable with no resistors or nothing, i tested the cable yesterday with a nintendo monitor and the image was great which means the cable works fine.  Also this tv does not have rca video plugs , just the coaxial entrance, where would i get the sync signal? thanks for the help

buttersoft

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2020, 06:48:55 am »
These questions are best posed on the Shmups thread, but...

0.7V peak-to-peak is the norm used for consumer RGB and VGA or RGBHV video. The cables used were expected to be electrically terminated at 75ohms. This basically means a 75R resistor placed between each video line and ground. It makes the line appear to have infinite length, mathematically, and prevents signal reflection, which often appears as slight ghosting just to the right of each part of an image. Without the termination the image will often be brighter but blurrier. A consumer set or VGA monitor or PVM will have the terminations built-in, though a BVM will not. But if you;'re hacking RGB into a consumer set, you will want to try the video lines with the terminations in place and without, to find out what works.

Arcade monitors did not typically use any electrical termination save for those that took VGA, and even those i'm not sure about. A really good arcade chassis like the older Nanao ones (Sega MC2000-S) doesn't care, you can terminate or not, the image looks crisp and bright either way.

The question about inputting sync is probably best directed toward the Shmups forum. Post on there, and put a link to the service manual in that same post.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2020, 07:07:14 am by buttersoft »

arfink

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #16 on: March 28, 2020, 06:54:04 am »
The .7vpp is referring to what the signal voltage is like. If you have an oscilloscope you can measure this accurately, if you only have a DMM you can get a very rough guess. Basically, your signal should be under 1volt (ideally .7 but like I said, this will be inaccurate) on the DMM at all times. If you were connecting an arcade board, those can be as high as 5v, so you need to attenuate the signal.

Termination refers to adding an additional resistor that connects the signal line to ground (in addition to connecting the signal to the required input or output), usually at one end or the other of the wires that run between the source and the TV. Termination can be a bit of a trial-and-error thing with RGB modding a TV and really depends on how the set was designed. Worst case scenario of not terminating correctly is you can get artifacts and banding in your video signal, so some experimentation may be needed. The reason this happens is that high-frequency signals can "bounce" inside of the wires (it's called reflection) and the termination can help to mitigate some of that. In some cases, termination through a capacitor can also help, but again, this will all depend on your specific TV and may vary widely.

As for injecting sync, I don't see why you couldn't put it right through the RF input if you had to, but it might be cleaner to find the spot on the circuit diagram where the sync is split off and inject at that point instead. Again, YMMV and it will depend on the TV.

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2020, 11:12:43 pm »
Today's your lucky day:


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joej85a

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2020, 08:44:13 am »
i love Game Sack but i miss Dave.

Sorry, back to the topic.

pbj

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #19 on: March 30, 2020, 09:59:42 am »
BYOAC - the blurriness is part of the experience.  the artists took this into account when designing the games.

Also BYOAC - I'm going to make the image as sharp as possible because blurry pixels look bad.

 :banghead:
This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

abispac

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2020, 01:24:16 pm »
i ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- on the first tv now i got pick up anotherone,thanks for the info guys.

Zebidee

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2020, 02:29:21 pm »
anotherone is a much better brand than Ifuckedon
Check out my completed projects!


buttersoft

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Re: tv to arcade hack, nned help understanding.
« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2020, 09:22:30 pm »
anotherone is a much better brand than Ifuckedon
:lol