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Author Topic: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.  (Read 835 times)

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abispac

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Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« on: March 15, 2020, 02:17:35 pm »
Hey so im trying to use an old 19 crt monitor i had laying around. It was working fine, but, stupid me, when i gutted the old cabinet , i discarded the isolation transformer thinking it wasnt any good. So long story short, when i was about to try my pc in the monitor, i pluged the monitor directly to the wall socket and it worked for like 3 minutes, so, i disconected it, plugged back in , and it didnt work. So i took the monitor with a friend of mine, and he said one of the horizontal oulets gave more power and ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- the monitor, plus all caps where dry. He fixed the monitor but i have not plugged it back in as i do not want to ---fouled up beyond all recognition--- it up again, so i guess my questions are, #1 its really not a way to hook this monitors directly? if not, how can i know what kind of isolator do i need? thanks in advance for any help.

abispac

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 10:18:49 am »
Anyone? please help...

Mike A

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2020, 10:47:25 am »
Yes you need the isolation transformer.  I've built 2 cabs from scratch so I build a little board with a terminal block and transformer.  I followed the drawing at the bottom of this page and it works.  Only thing I did different is I used one of the power jacks that had a built-in EMI filter.

http://arcadecontrols.com/BBBB/acwiring.html

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2020, 08:46:46 pm »
Yes you need the isolation transformer.  I've built 2 cabs from scratch so I build a little board with a terminal block and transformer.  I followed the drawing at the bottom of this page and it works.  Only thing I did different is I used one of the power jacks that had a built-in EMI filter.

http://arcadecontrols.com/BBBB/acwiring.html

Had the same success as Gilrock with the real Bob Roberts method- although my line filter solution was slightly different also.

(To be extra safe) check on your monitor specifically just to be sure you need a 1:1 transformer like nearly all of them do.
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abispac

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2020, 09:14:06 pm »
thank yall for the help...

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2020, 01:09:47 pm »
Quote
so im trying to use an old 19 crt monitor i had laying around.

this doesn't help. it may need an isolation transformer...it may not.... it's going to depend on the monitor if it does or not.

i am going to suspect that if you plugged it in directly and it DID work (if even for a couple minutes even) and didn't IMMEDIATLY fry on you... it doesn't need isolation... and the reason for it's failure is unrelated.

monitors that need isolation basically instantly die the millisecond you plug them directly to mains.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2020, 08:02:46 pm »
Quote
so im trying to use an old 19 crt monitor i had laying around.

this doesn't help. it may need an isolation transformer...it may not.... it's going to depend on the monitor if it does or not.

i am going to suspect that if you plugged it in directly and it DID work (if even for a couple minutes even) and didn't IMMEDIATLY fry on you... it doesn't need isolation... and the reason for it's failure is unrelated.

monitors that need isolation basically instantly die the millisecond you plug them directly to mains.
I know some times you got to play by the rules, but to be honest, 2 to 3 years ago, arcade cabinets with classic xbox were very popular around here, and i always saw monitors connected directly to the outlets with no problems, in fact i never saw one connected to an iso. so my though was that maybe this is the first one to require one. Im try to use it as is and post result to see if it burns back again.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2020, 12:25:57 am »
older monitors (80's early 90's) used a voltage regulator to create the main B+ voltage (usualy 130 to 160V DC) this voltage is not referenced to ground. the chassis has it's own "ground" a "chassis ground". problem is... your power coming out of your outlet is neutral referenced and grounded.

see, the neutral leg of the AC is tied to ground. problem is, if you plug this type of monitor directly into the wall, you effectively short all your B+ into ground. kerpow, you kill the regulator and likely the output stage diode(s).

newer monitors (like the last 30 years or so) rethought the design and instead use switchmode power supplies which use high frequency pulsed DC into a transformer to make power... this transformer takes the place of an isolation transformer since there is now a physical separation between the AC power going in and the DC coming out.

for the sake of ease, some really cheap china made monitors made near the end of the CRT era did require isolation...this was because there was a bit of a resurgence in the regulated power supply style of power (likely due to a handful of cheap parts being readily available at the time) they could throw a fistfull of transistors, FET's and diodes and make an inexpensive regulated supply.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2020, 09:27:22 am »
older monitors (80's early 90's) used a voltage regulator to create the main B+ voltage (usualy 130 to 160V DC) this voltage is not referenced to ground. the chassis has it's own "ground" a "chassis ground". problem is... your power coming out of your outlet is neutral referenced and grounded.

see, the neutral leg of the AC is tied to ground. problem is, if you plug this type of monitor directly into the wall, you effectively short all your B+ into ground. kerpow, you kill the regulator and likely the output stage diode(s).

newer monitors (like the last 30 years or so) rethought the design and instead use switchmode power supplies which use high frequency pulsed DC into a transformer to make power... this transformer takes the place of an isolation transformer since there is now a physical separation between the AC power going in and the DC coming out.

for the sake of ease, some really cheap china made monitors made near the end of the CRT era did require isolation...this was because there was a bit of a resurgence in the regulated power supply style of power (likely due to a handful of cheap parts being readily available at the time) they could throw a fistfull of transistors, FET's and diodes and make an inexpensive regulated supply.
:laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: im so dumb :laugh2: :laugh2: :laugh2: so should i tried it without an iso or no?

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2020, 11:25:38 am »
i'm just saying, the nature of the regulated supply means the millisecond you plug it directly to mains, it's fried.

if it ran (even if only for a few minutes) it's a switchmode style supply and an isolation transformer is not needed.

it's failure is unrelated to needing an isolation transformer or not.

behrmr

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2020, 11:50:34 am »
You can just look at an arcade CRT monitor and tell if it needs an iso.  If there's a larger transformer mounted to the chassis then it has it's own switching power supply and doesn't need an ISO.  Also the ones that don't need an ISO very often have a 3 prong power connector, not two.
 

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2020, 08:09:36 pm »
You can just look at an arcade CRT monitor and tell if it needs an iso.  If there's a larger transformer mounted to the chassis then it has it's own switching power supply and doesn't need an ISO.  Also the ones that don't need an ISO very often have a 3 prong power connector, not two.
This is what i mean, if you look at this chinese chassis, they dont have a large transformer built in, neither they have 3 prong cord, and they always get connected to the wall without an iso, thats a popular thing to do. Now the monitor im trying to use, it lasted 3 minutes without the iso, so acording to lilshawn , i should be ok, once the chassis had been repaired, right?
« Last Edit: March 21, 2020, 10:54:48 pm by abispac »

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2020, 11:46:43 pm »
You can just look at an arcade CRT monitor and tell if it needs an iso.  If there's a larger transformer mounted to the chassis then it has it's own switching power supply and doesn't need an ISO.  Also the ones that don't need an ISO very often have a 3 prong power connector, not two.
This is what i mean, if you look at this chinese chassis, they dont have a large transformer built in, neither they have 3 prong cord, and they always get connected to the wall without an iso, thats a popular thing to do. Now the monitor im trying to use, it lasted 3 minutes without the iso, so acording to lilshawn , i should be ok, once the chassis had been repaired, right?

As long as you use an ISO you’ll be ok

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2020, 01:04:05 am »
see that's the thing... that particular chassis there is one of those end of the run type of monitors i mentioned that are super cheaply made of whatever parts where available...as such, use a weird power supply system not quite regulated....not quite switchmode... and is a crapshoot if it needs isolation or not.

I would describe that one shown as... "make a bunch of DC voltage with a bridge rectifier and a big cap...then use resistors to knock that high voltage down to whatever smaller voltages you need." kind of a power supply. it's a really really dirty way of doing it...but i guess it mostly works. perhaps an UNregulated power supply is an accurate description.


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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2020, 04:09:19 am »
You can just look at an arcade CRT monitor and tell if it needs an iso.  If there's a larger transformer mounted to the chassis then it has it's own switching power supply and doesn't need an ISO.  Also the ones that don't need an ISO very often have a 3 prong power connector, not two.
This is what i mean, if you look at this chinese chassis, they dont have a large transformer built in, neither they have 3 prong cord, and they always get connected to the wall without an iso, thats a popular thing to do. Now the monitor im trying to use, it lasted 3 minutes without the iso, so acording to lilshawn , i should be ok, once the chassis had been repaired, right?

As long as you use an ISO you’ll be ok

I thought the same was true and nearly killed my switch mode power supply type monitor (because it can't draw enough power through an ISO at times apparently.)
It was saved by heeding lilshawn's advice in fact.

I'm a noob and have no idea what I'm looking at with monitor chassis and mine I refer to had no AC plug connector when I got it either- just three 12g wires.

Unless we are talking about parts you don't mind blowing up, I would say better to know for sure based on the logic of someone familiar specifically with what you are using.

Bobby
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abispac

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2020, 11:37:27 pm »
Where can i find such "iso" on a regular everyday item, a fridge? my local electronic estore dont sell those...

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2020, 06:47:39 am »
I have one of those monitors - it is based on a Wei-ya design, can't remember the exact model but maybe 1820. Will have a look and confirm later.

It definitely needs an isolation transformer (not some substandard ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- one either) and 110v.

I run mine with an ISO and yes, it does get pretty warm. Not too warm though. Nothing blown up so far.

EDIT: Yeah a Wei-ya 1829HR 19 inch chassis, or near enough. I've attached right schematic for it.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2020, 07:06:43 am by Zebidee »
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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2020, 10:56:31 am »
I have one of those monitors - it is based on a Wei-ya design, can't remember the exact model but maybe 1820. Will have a look and confirm later.

It definitely needs an isolation transformer (not some substandard ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- one either) and 110v.

I run mine with an ISO and yes, it does get pretty warm. Not too warm though. Nothing blown up so far.

EDIT: Yeah a Wei-ya 1829HR 19 inch chassis, or near enough. I've attached right schematic for it.
Sorry for the confusion, the chassis on the picture, the wei yah clone, it was just to show an example on the type of chassis's here locally they use all the time with some xbox or multigames cabinets, they dont use an iso and they last years without them, the actual 19in im trying to use, and the one i know it used an iso, (i just happened to get rid of it out of ignorance) its on the shop getting some parts replaced to make it work again. NOW my confussion is, lilsahw  told me (and as english is my second lenguage i may misunderstood) some chassis need and iso and some dont, basically i understood that if you chassis blows up right away, then yes, you need and iso, if it dosnt blow up, then maybe you dont, since i want to be safe i want to get one, but not from ebay, ill probably go to the scrapyard to see if i can get me one. thanks for the help.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2020, 02:25:34 pm »
You (and any person trying to offer advice) really need to know EXACTLY which chassis you are going to use- or you will have problems.

They are all different.

There are also many different types of isolation transformer.  Different voltages, different transformer ratios...

Mismatching these will cause problems.

You PROBABLY need the one I sent a link for (if you need one at all) and it is less expensive than another chassis or extra repair costs.

If you post a picture of THE chassis you will use I believe lilshawn can give you very good advice.

Anything else is a waste of everyone's time.
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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2020, 08:05:59 pm »
Yeah i got my chasis back and this is what it says....crap, i guess im screewd, i still need to replace some caps and the vertical, or whatever that is, my friend marked it  for me.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2020, 10:13:21 pm »
model number

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2020, 11:22:51 pm »
Reading the big ass label on the chassis would have been a good start.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2020, 11:26:39 pm »
And punch the guy who fixed it for you in the dick. Why did he leave stuff for you to fix, and why didn't he tell you it needed an isolation transformer? That is like one of the most common arcade monitors.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2020, 01:59:34 am »
And punch the guy who fixed it for you in the dick. Why did he leave stuff for you to fix, and why didn't he tell you it needed an isolation transformer? That is like one of the most common arcade monitors.

These last two replies made me laugh so loud the wife asked if I was ok
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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2020, 02:59:05 am »
Funniest thing I've seen since a pic of a popular Mexican beer with a bit of lemon in it, with the caption "Fighting coronavirus one slice at a time".

Oh ---steaming pile of meadow muffin--- that was just like yesterday, sorry.
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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2020, 09:36:26 am »
Reading the big ass label on the chassis would have been a good start.
Sorry it was at my friends shop.
And punch the guy who fixed it for you in the dick. Why did he leave stuff for you to fix, and why didn't he tell you it needed an isolation transformer? That is like one of the most common arcade monitors.
Well he didnt had the parts, so i told him it was ok to just mark the bad parts as i could get them and fix them my self. nothing to worry about, just a friends thing, what matters is i can fix it , now with the level, its says right there in big letter, use a ---smurfing--- iso you moron lol  :laugh2:

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2020, 10:06:49 am »
Sorry but this isn't sounding right.  Your first post says your friend fixed the monitor but you were afraid to plug it back in not knowing if you needed an isolation transformer.  Now you are saying he didn't have the parts to fix it so he marked which parts were bad.  That sounds suspect as well usually repairing a monitor is a process you don't just mark all the bad parts.  And the first post says your friend claimed a horizontal output was putting out too much power.  That doesn't sound like something one would be measuring.

If you are going to work on the monitor it easier to not need to install it in the cabinet so build a little board setup like I described where you can have an isolation transformer and a switch to turn it on and off.  Mike provided a link which was at arcaderepairparts, bobbyb provided a link on eBay but it is really coming from TwistedQuarter, and you could look at ArcadeShop.  They all sell the 1:1 120v iso transformer that will work for you.  Question is do you have the equipment to do soldering/desoldering to replace parts?  Last year I knew zero about arcade CRTs so I was starting from scratch searching the net for how to work on them.  You need to learn how to discharge them.  Its really helpful if you have a desoldering station and a nice soldering iron where you can dial in the temperature.  I would search and find the schematics.  I would search for the Randy Fromme troubleshooting flowchart for the CRT.  You'll need to debug to find the major problems.  If you get it working you may want to do a cap kit which you can get from arcaderepairparts.  One thing I'm not familiar with is what might have blown up by not using a transformer.  Hopefully this helps you decide if you can tackle it yourself.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2020, 01:29:35 pm »
Yeah, when my friend told me he fixed the chassis i took his word wrongly, thats why i posted that, he is a very experienced guy and very smart so i take his word when he said to me to replace those marked parts, i dont mind, i really dont plan on spending to much money on this as there are plenty of other working monitors i can get for 10 dlls, so buying a 20 some dlls iso plus parts , just not worthy, but, on this particular monitor, i really like the metal frame or base, so ill look for an iso loacally and cheap, i know i can find one, ill replace those marked parts, to see if the monitor works back again. ill keep posting results.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #30 on: March 26, 2020, 09:11:58 pm »
see, this is what i mean, i changed my chinese monitor for a Sharp XM2001N , working, i tested it, and it looks good, BUT, i dint use an iso because i didnt knew i need it, and the freaking monitor works just fine, no iso needed, so WTF? should i risk the electrohome monitor without an iso ? 

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #31 on: March 26, 2020, 10:10:33 pm »
no, the G07 needs isolation, it says it plainly on the chassis.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #32 on: March 26, 2020, 10:46:29 pm »
no, the G07 needs isolation, it says it plainly on the chassis.
:laugh2: oh carp.... :cheers: ok ill get one.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #33 on: March 26, 2020, 10:57:39 pm »
Do microwaves have thos 120v 120v isos? i think they do, ima have to visit my scrap yard.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #34 on: March 27, 2020, 05:09:27 am »
no, the G07 needs isolation, it says it plainly on the chassis.
:laugh2: oh carp.... :cheers: ok ill get one.
I told you that in reply 23.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #35 on: March 27, 2020, 10:29:34 am »
no, the G07 needs isolation, it says it plainly on the chassis.
:laugh2: oh carp.... :cheers: ok ill get one.
I told you that in reply 23.
  :laugh2: ok MikeA you win this round... :cheers: :laugh2:

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #36 on: March 29, 2020, 10:11:24 am »
I have been testing my inventory of CRTs the last few days and I thought this was relevent to the thread. I picked up a k4625 CRT awhile ago. I was buying a different game and I saw that CRT in a cab in his garage. He said he was building a multicab but the monitor died when he plugged it in. He told me I could have it for 50 bucks. It turns out he didn't have an isolation transformer in the cab. I tried to help him out, but he just wanted to be rid of it. Luckily it seems like the only damage was a blown fuse. With a new fuse and the proper isolation transformer it has run beautifully for hours. That pic was taken before I mounted the fuse holder to the chassis.

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Re: Arcade monitor isolation transformer.
« Reply #37 on: Yesterday at 01:55:56 pm »
Nice score Mike - we should be glad that there are plenty of dudes out there that don't understand the importance of ISOs. How else would we get dirt-cheap prices on great cabs? Mind you, lucky it was just the fuse that blew (guess that's what it is for).
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