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Author Topic: Crossover gamepad adapters . Direct Input / XInput VS HID compliant ???  (Read 239 times)

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Zebra

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I'm trying to find enough info to choose the right "crossover adapter" for my needs but I'm confused by conflicting info on HID controllers. Does anyone here understand this stuff?

Some sources talk about compliance with "the HID standard" (Is there actually a standard?). The Microsoft site  states that "HID controllers usually use either the direct input or Xinput standard protocols".

This sounds like it should mean that if you had adapters that let you use Xinput or Dinput controllers on your console, at least one of them should be compatible with PC HID controllers like flight sticks but they virtually never are...

So what is the HID standard if it's not Xinput or Dinput? The Titan Two from Console Tuner is the only device I can find that claims "compatibility with the HID standard". Should this mean any PC HID controller will work or is HID just the name for all non-standard controllers that aren't Dinput or Xinput?

Howard_Casto

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Re: Crossover gamepad adapters . Direct Input / XInput VS HID compliant ???
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2020, 10:03:05 pm »
Ok the short of it is, as far as consoles go at least, there's no such thing as a universal adapter..... because Microsoft (and sometimes Nintendo and now that I think of it, Sony too). 

Let me explain.  Starting on the pc end of things, almost all gamepads, joysticks or whatever usb devices that work on a pc are HID complaint.  HID=Human Interface Device...  even your mouse and keyboard, assuming they are usb 2.0 or higher, are HID compliant.  HID devices generally don't need a driver on the pc to work and/or the needed driver is already included with windows.  Note I said HID, not HIOD.  In theory HID devices allow for some type of output standard, but I've never seen it used.  In other works if you want force feedback or rumble to work... yup it needs a driver downloaded anyway.  Direct Input is just an older usb joystick as all usb gamepads/joysticks that aren't xbox 360/xbox one clones are using direct input.  Except for specialty controllers (flight sticks and wheels) this standard is starting to go away.  The reason they still use it is the new standard (xinput) doesn't allow for the kind of outputs and extra axis these devices require.  Xinput is the new standard on the pc... if you play a newer pc game it's almost definitely going to support xinput, and it may or may not support dinput.  Most cheap-o Chinese usb gamepads show up as an xinput device by cloning the ID of an xbox 360 gamepad... tricking windows.  Note that dinput devices and xinput devices are probably also HID devices.  But that's on the pc end of things. 

On consoles things are different.  Microsoft has an encryption chip on all of their gamepads.  Only officially licensed gamepads will work, so those cheap ones from ebay… yeah they show up as a 360 pad in windows, but not on the game consoles.  Any "whatever" to xbone/xb360 adapter needs to have an official pad plugged into it to act as a pass-through.  Nintendo likes to do it's own thing.  Their controllers are seldom usb compliant, much less anything else.  It's usually possible to spoof a Nintendo controller, but because their protocols are odd, in addition to having weird controllers, it often doesn't matter anyway.  I'm not as well versed with sony stuff, but I believe most everything from the ps3 onward can be made to work on the pc and other devices via custom drivers and/or an adapter.  They aren't HID compliant though. 

So to summarize... almost all usb gamepads are hid compliant.  That isn't necessarily useful though on the pc or on consoles.  Only Microsoft stuff and it's copycats are Xinput compliant BUT it's pretty much the standard on the pc at this point for gamepads.  Anything else is direct input.... unless it's by Nintendo or Sony.... Nintendo does it's own thing and Sony hates to comply to any standard that Microsoft uses (although most of their devices can be made to work anyway).  So yeah, no such thing as a standard across all things. 

Zebra

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Re: Crossover gamepad adapters . Direct Input / XInput VS HID compliant ???
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2020, 08:22:19 pm »
So with a device like this Titan Two from Console Tuner, does their statement " The Titan Two is fully compliant with the HID standard, making it compatible with virtually any HID gaming devices, such as fight-sticks, steering wheels, joysticks, foot switches, etc" actually mean anything?

https://www.consoletuner.com/products/titan-two/

If I understood what you said then "HID compliant" or the "HID standard" is meaningless. It's like saying "it's fruit". It could be an apple or an orange or none of the above and still be considered fruit.

Is there something else a PC HID controller could be besides direct input or Xinput? Or is there a way of finding out what actual protocol is used for devices that windows just lists as "HID joystick" so the right adapter can be sourced?

My initial goal is to use my UHID or Apac or HID Arduino absolute mouse on a PS3 which is apparently the hardest thing in the world. Those Console Tuner people seem to be deliberately vague or misleading on their compatibility info. They often fail to mention that "compatible" for them does not always mean both ways or on all compatible consoles. You can't use a flight stick instead of a Wii remote on a Wii console, for example. Although you can apparently use a Wii remote on a PS3 which seems odd.

Maybe I'd have to rely on their Max Aim plugin as it has a capture mode for otherwise non-compatible controllers to make them work on consoles while it's all connected to a PC.


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Re: Crossover gamepad adapters . Direct Input / XInput VS HID compliant ???
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2020, 10:30:01 pm »
Well yeah it doesn't really mean that much.  In theory the HID standard allows one to read any combination of axis and buttons if the proper header is included in the device.  The problem is console gamepads, aside from the xbox ones, don't have HID headers.  Also note that they are very deliberate about saying "virtually" any device and also they mention stuff like motion controls and what not, but not force feedback or vibration.  Here's what I've learned over the years about usb adapters.... getting one that adds somewhat crippled functionality is much more common than getting a fully featured one that actually works 100%. 

Usually it's just cheaper and easier to have multiple interfaces.  Like if you were building one for the guns that you work on it'd be far easier to buy  ps4, xbox one and switch wired controllers, hack their thumbstick interfaces to output to a d-sub connector and then just plug the gun into the appropriate gamepad.  I would also look into the 8-bitdo adapters.  They are clunky and you have to re-flash the firmware for each system, but they support a lot of pads and they actually work properly.  I mean look how much they want for their adapter.... an 8-bit do can be had for 20-30 dollars and while clunky, they do work. 

Zebra

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Re: Crossover gamepad adapters . Direct Input / XInput VS HID compliant ???
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2020, 12:07:50 am »
I had a similar first thought on modding console controllers, especially when I saw the price of these adapters. Unfortunately I ran into some immediate problems with no obvious solutions.

The primary one is that most console analog controllers are set up for relative positioning only. I've only ever found a tiny handful of console gun games that have an option to switch to absolute positioning (like pro mode on Guncom 2 on the PS2). If you play PS3 games like HOD4 with the PS3 6-axis analog pad, it's relative pos only. Plus they have no calibration option. I need the UHID's X Y axis offsets option.

I'm not sure how the analog output works through these adapters but they have some nice options to use a mouse for PS3 games instead. With that, I could potentially hook an arcade gun as an absolute mouse via an Arduino, or maybe use my Act Labs gun.

My best hope for a pad hack style mod on the PS3 or wii would be to find the analog outputs on the PS Move, Guncon 3 and Wii remote. I've started two of those projects but I'm not finding it quick or easy with there being no beaten path to follow.

These Titan devices are meant to be more functionally rich and configurable than your average brook adapter. It's unfortunate that they have a whole load of features I couldn't care less about (like macros to cheat in FPS games) and only a limited focus on crossover gaming. But my thought was that if they could make a PC HID device move an analog axis on a PS3 or Wii, that would already be better than any other adapter ever.

My Titan one arrived today. I haven't tested it on a PS3 yet but I was encouraged to see that their Max Aim plug-in responded to my Sega gun via the UHID. I'm not getting my hopes up though. I can see the console software limitations being an unsolvable barrier no matter what I try.

Zebra

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Re: Crossover gamepad adapters . Direct Input / XInput VS HID compliant ???
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 08:33:20 pm »
I started testing the Titan One with the PS3 today to use my PC arcade controls. Using their Max Aim plug-in, I was able to use my Sega type two guns (connected via a Uhid) as a PS3 left analog stick as well as mapping the trigger to the PS3 X button etc.

I was also able to play a game of HOD4 on the PS3 using a PC mouse. But the PS3 has no absolute mode unless you use the PS Move so it's still useless for light gun games. I.e. If I connected a PC gun that output as a mouse, it would work but only in relative mode so it would have no idea where I was aiming.

I'm going to test my PS Move with it tomorrow to see if I can map other analog controls to output a PS Move signal. If I can't, I'm not sure if this issue can be solved without patching the PS3 game software to change relative to absolute positioning. 

So close and yet.., still so far...