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Author Topic: My take on arcade emulation.  (Read 2761 times)

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cools

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #80 on: November 26, 2019, 07:40:24 am »
Imported cabinet, brand new k1080p IPS PC "gaming" monitor, running the Steam HD port of a 15khz JAMMA game.

(Groovy with filter 1 prescale 3 keepaspect on unevenstretch on looks great too) >:D
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Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #81 on: November 26, 2019, 08:31:01 am »
OK; you win the troll contest.

These newish HD cabinets solve most problems of the traditional cabinets in my eyes, though -- two players can use them comfortably and they give you a more reasonable distance to the monitor and point of view as well. Still, flat ---fudgesicle---'ng panel.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 08:40:44 am by Recapnation »

Recapnation

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #82 on: November 26, 2019, 08:34:22 am »
Also, aperture grille is nice too. Not entirely conventional in the arcades, but a perfectly fine way of displaying pixels. Just keep it below 500 TVL.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #83 on: November 26, 2019, 09:29:06 am »
OK; you win the troll contest.

These newish HD cabinets solve most problems of the traditional cabinets in my eyes, though -- two players can use them comfortably and they give you a more reasonable distance to the monitor and point of view as well. Still, flat ---fudgesicle---'ng panel.

Out of reach of your mate's elbow ?  :lol just a joke pal ;)

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #84 on: November 26, 2019, 03:14:14 pm »
Imported cabinet, brand new k1080p IPS PC "gaming" monitor, running the Steam HD port of a 15khz JAMMA game.

Brand new RGB-mods on consumers TVs (Philips and Sanyo).

PCBs in two, GroovyMAME on the other two (running Cools' vertical and horizontal displays in Attract-Mode. They're so, um, cool. ;) ).

It's easier than ever to get RGB into a curved, low-dot pitch, authentic-looking tube in 2019 thanks to the copious amount of how-to information out there now.
My MAME/SCART/CRT blog: SCART Hunter

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #85 on: November 26, 2019, 04:32:17 pm »
Also, aperture grille is nice too. Not entirely conventional in the arcades, but a perfectly fine way of displaying pixels. Just keep it below 500 TVL.

There's nothing wrong with a flat tube and an aperture grille; they even have some advantages over conventional spherical tubes with shadow masks (which is why they were used on high-end TVs and monitors, e.g., Sony Trinitron, Mitsubishi Diamondtron) but they won't give you the look that 15 KHz arcade games originally had, because every 15 KHz-only arcade monitor that I know of used a conventional spherical tube with a shadow mask, the same type of tube that was used in run-of-the-mill CRT TVs.

Imported cabinet, brand new k1080p IPS PC "gaming" monitor, running the Steam HD port of a 15khz JAMMA game.

Brand new RGB-mods on consumers TVs (Philips and Sanyo).

PCBs in two, GroovyMAME on the other two (running Cools' vertical and horizontal displays in Attract-Mode. They're so, um, cool. ;) ).

It's easier than ever to get RGB into a curved, low-dot pitch, authentic-looking tube in 2019 thanks to the copious amount of how-to information out there now.

Yes, I mentioned that option in a previous post, and for someone who's up for doing the modification, it gives a look that's just as authentic as an original CRT arcade monitor. It's best to use a TV for which you can access the hidden "service menu" though, which allows you to adjust vertical/horizontal position/size of the raster, among other things. It's not a 100% readily accessible path to RGB glory though, because you need to find a suitable TV (one with an onscreen display, which generally means late 1980s or newer; older dial-and-knob type TVs won't work unless you re-engineer the chassis) and you need to either find a specific model for which RGB modification instructions already exist, or know how to adapt the basic concept of the modification to any suitable TV. You also need to know how to solder and not be scared of taking a CRT TV apart and working on its circuitry (many people are convinced that doing so can kill you, though they never produce any documented case of "death by CRT").
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 04:44:55 pm by MaximRecoil »

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #86 on: November 26, 2019, 06:17:06 pm »
This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

Quote
These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

I think the dot pitch is actually going to be pretty similar. Certainly the Nanao 29" tri-syncs i've seen have the same pitch as consumer TVs, and those are the Rolls Royce of tri-syncs. Their amazing clarity and colour was more to do with design and construction quality. The Happ monitors are just Makvision tri-syncs aren't they? And those things are meant to be one or two steps above garbage. Still, they're all you can get.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #87 on: November 26, 2019, 07:19:46 pm »
I think the dot pitch is actually going to be pretty similar. Certainly the Nanao 29" tri-syncs i've seen have the same pitch as consumer TVs, and those are the Rolls Royce of tri-syncs. Their amazing clarity and colour was more to do with design and construction quality. The Happ monitors are just Makvision tri-syncs aren't they? And those things are meant to be one or two steps above garbage. Still, they're all you can get.

The Nanao doesn't use a flat tube, or at least the ones I've seen didn't. They used a standard spherical tube, which means a standard shadow mask. The Makvision that Happ is selling has a flat tube, which usually, if not always, means that it has an aperture grille or variant of an aperture grille. One of the "advantages" of an aperture grille is that it allows for a finer dot pitch (or rather, stripe pitch, because aperture grille tubes use phosphor stripes rather than dots) than a shadow mask. Also, in order to look good at 31 KHz (which is "VGA", e.g., 640x480p @ 60 Hz), the phosphor dots need to be smaller compared to a tube of the same size that's only used for 15 KHz resolutions. You get blurriness if you try to display high resolutions on a coarse dot pitch tube.

In any case, if the multi-sync monitor has a standard spherical tube and shadow mask, the difference in its dot pitch size compared to a standard 15 KHz monitor of the same size probably isn't very noticeable, but when you throw a flat tube / aperture grille setup into the mix, it looks nothing like a standard arcade monitor.

And yeah, the Makvision that Happ is selling doesn't have a stellar reputation for picture quality. I'd use an RGB-modded consumer TV long before I'd use one of those, even if cost wasn't a factor.

cools

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #88 on: November 27, 2019, 06:16:51 am »
OK; you win the troll contest.

These newish HD cabinets solve most problems of the traditional cabinets in my eyes, though -- two players can use them comfortably and they give you a more reasonable distance to the monitor and point of view as well. Still, flat ---fudgesicle---'ng panel.

I have plenty of CRTs around the place, way more than I have use for. The LCD is great for anything modern, and while I know old stuff is wrong, it's perfectly playable. Only us fussy buggers really care
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Zebra

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #89 on: November 27, 2019, 12:01:52 pm »
This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

Quote
These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

Quote
Sony Trinitrons with component are still be regularly dumped on curbs and given away on Craigslist. Ebay is stuffed with deals on CRT arcade monitors and TV's with component.

Trinitrons look wrong for the same reason the Makvision Tri-Sync looks wrong, i.e., flat tube (or cylindrical tube, depending on which version of a Trinitron you get) and aperture grille. Plus, if it's a model of Trinitron that can sync to 31 KHz, it has the finer dot pitch problem too. Also, as I've already mentioned, CRT TVs with component inputs are not nearly as common as ones without it. The best component-input TV to get if you want 15 KHz arcade games to look like they originally did, is one of the lower end models, i.e., 15 KHz-only, standard spherical tube (which also inherently means shadow mask rather than aperture grille, and relatively coarse dot pitch). Unfortunately those might be even harder to find, because component inputs didn't start appearing on lower end CRT TVs until rather late in the game.

You're still wrong.

Whether Happs CRTs are newly manufactured or from a stock somewhere is irrelevant. The fact is they are available to buy new now and, when they sell out, Happ orders more from somewhere. Right now, they are sold out but new stock arrives Dec 4.

I paid $500 for mine plus $89 delivery which is no different to what new arcade monitors have always cost. They go on sale regularly. For those like you who can't afford to buy new, there is always plenty of used ones that come up on ebay and Craigslist.

The dot pitch on a crt has nothing to do with it being tri-sync or cga only. The sync range is from the chassis and you can put a tri-sync chassis on any compatible CRT. The dot pitch on these Makvisions is around .8mm which is broadly comparable to most 90's CRT tv's. Most arcade monitors have a pitch somewhere around 0.8mm - 0.9mm. It's not like broadcast monitors with a 0.3mm pitch.

I have two tri-syncs (one Billabs, one Makvision), a Wells Gardner K7000 CGA and an Ikegami TM20-90RH so I have a better idea than most in what looks right and is easy to live with. The image on the 27" Makvisions is definitely not to sharp to look arcade-like:



Tri-syncs make the most sense for mame and other arcade emulators because you can play everything from Pac Man to Lindbergh at native res which means you get the nicest image for the most amount of games (without buying seperste CGA, EGA and VGA monitors). 80's arcades look a little nicer on a curved Wells Gardner but not enough to matter.

Newer tri-syncs usually have DB15 input and can be used with a PC with no additional signal boosters or adapters. They usually don't need isolation transformers. The Windows desktop can be run in 480p which doesn't flicker like 480i. They can be used in 480p with a Dreamcast, PS3 and PS2. My 25" Billabs tri-sync is my fav crt and the one that gets the most use for these reasons.

On Component video, it was included on all of the later Sony Trinitrons. The later models are easily the most common on Craigslist in NY / NJ. I doubt New York is unique in this respect. They really aren't hard to find for peanuts.


Zebra

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #90 on: November 27, 2019, 03:00:06 pm »
This isn't accurate. In North America you can still buy new tri-sync crt arcade monitors from SuzoHapp.

There's exactly one model of CRT arcade monitor that you can buy from Happ and it is over $700 shipped. I have yet to see any evidence that they are newly manufactured rather than new old stock.

Quote
These are the absolute best option for those that want to play every arcade game in native res.

They are among the worst CRT options for the vast majority of arcade games (if you want them to look the way they did in the arcades), which used 15 KHz monitors (not multi-sync monitors) with a standard spherical (curved) picture tube (not a flat tube). Multi-sync monitors have a finer dot pitch than 15 KHz-only monitors, which by itself makes them look wrong when displaying 15 KHz games; the flat tube makes them look even more wrong, and the aperture grille that goes along with flat tubes (rather than a conventional shadow mask) makes them look even more, more wrong. The only worse RGB CRT option is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz.

I think the dot pitch is actually going to be pretty similar. Certainly the Nanao 29" tri-syncs i've seen have the same pitch as consumer TVs, and those are the Rolls Royce of tri-syncs. Their amazing clarity and colour was more to do with design and construction quality. The Happ monitors are just Makvision tri-syncs aren't they? And those things are meant to be one or two steps above garbage. Still, they're all you can get.

The issues with Makvisions are nothing to do with the tube or image quality, or authenticity. As with all arcade monitors, the tubes are made by one of the big name manufacturers. Anything unique is in the chassis. My 29/27" Mak tube is made by LG. My 25" Billabs flat crt tri-sync has a Toshiba tube. The image looks different on both and neither looks like a Trinitron tube.

The issue with Makvisions is the chassis quality. The ones I have seen seem to arrive with the power / brightness set wrong which is recipe for problems. I had to spend a little time tweaking the power and color balance as well as the geometry controls (which move during transit). Once adjusted though, it has performed well. It's certainly not the best tri-sync ever made (my Billabs is noticeably higher quality) but it has given me far less problems than my aging Wells Gardner chassis because I got it new. It works a lot better as a multi game mame monitor too.

There is no single monitor that is 100% authentic for all arcade games. They varied tremendously depending on the game developer, the style of cab and the year of release. A lot of later arcade cabs used a flat CRT. games from the 80's usually had 19" curved tubes. Large "deluxe" cabs often used rear projection displays. Most of us have to compromise on something if we don't wish to buy 10 CRTs.

The difference between curved and flat CRTs is mainly related to the geometry. I.e. Curved tubes usually (but not always) have better geometry. With all else equal, I would choose curved but.,. nothing trumps playing every game at native res and refresh when it comes to creating an authentic look. The pitch is 2nd. The tube shape and mask style are of minor importance.

As someone who owns a lot of different types of CRT, I am positive that the look of games from Groovymame on most tri-syncs will satisfy a majority of arcade fans. As an option, it's second only to buying 3 dedicated CGA, EGA and VGA monitors. Here's s few pics to illustrate the point:

Billabs tri-sync with a mid 90's game:



And with an 80's game:



And an EGA game:



And Sega Rally on the PS3 in 480p:



Here's on of the Makvision in CGA mode:



And the Mak with an 80's game:



An EGA game:



And a VGA game:



For reference, here is SF2 on my old Sony Trinitron -



Here is one on my Ikegami broadcast monitor with a curved tube but a pitch that's way too fine for old arcades:



But as with most of these quibbles, they become far less noticeable at normal playing distance:



You just see an amazingly detailed image with fantastic contrast because your are playing at native res and refresh rates:







MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #91 on: November 27, 2019, 09:56:40 pm »
You're still wrong.

Whether Happs CRTs are newly manufactured or from a stock somewhere is irrelevant. The fact is they are available to buy new now and, when they sell out, Happ orders more from somewhere. Right now, they are sold out but new stock arrives Dec 4.

It's relevant to what I originally posted. If it's just new old stock then, well, most anything could be said to be readily available. Just search eBay for NOS or "new old stock" and you can find countless items that haven't been manufactured in ages. When someone says that something isn't readily available, it goes without saying that finding it in NOS form is pretty much always a possibility.

Additionally, that's only one make/model of arcade monitor, and it's the wrong size to be a drop-in fit in most North American arcade cabinets.

Quote
I paid $500 for mine plus $89 delivery which is no different to what new arcade monitors have always cost. They go on sale regularly.

New arcade monitors have not always cost $500. New 19" Happ Vision Pros were $179 when I bought 3 of them in the late 2000s (their readily-available status ceased around 2009).

Quote
For those like you who can't afford to buy new, there is always plenty of used ones that come up on ebay and Craigslist.

That goes without saying, just like the possibility of NOS goes without saying.

Quote
The dot pitch on a crt has nothing to do with it being tri-sync or cga only.

Yes, it does.

Quote
The sync range is from the chassis and you can put a tri-sync chassis on any compatible CRT.

Obviously, but you'll get poor (blurry) results with VGA on a coarse dot-pitch tube, which is why, for a given tube size, finer dot pitch is used for monitors that sync to higher frequencies.

Quote
The dot pitch on these Makvisions is around .8mm

Citation needed.

Quote
I have two tri-syncs (one Billabs, one Makvision), a Wells Gardner K7000 CGA and an Ikegami TM20-90RH so I have a better idea than most in what looks right and is easy to live with. The image on the 27" Makvisions is definitely not to sharp to look arcade-like:

Tri-syncs make the most sense for mame and other arcade emulators because you can play everything from Pac Man to Lindbergh at native res which means you get the nicest image for the most amount of games (without buying seperste CGA, EGA and VGA monitors). 80's arcades look a little nicer on a curved Wells Gardner but not enough to matter.

Flat screen CRTs look completely wrong. I could live with a minor dot pitch size difference, but flat screen is a deal killer.

Quote
Newer tri-syncs usually have DB15 input and can be used with a PC with no additional signal boosters or adapters. They usually don't need isolation transformers. The Windows desktop can be run in 480p which doesn't flicker like 480i. They can be used in 480p with a Dreamcast, PS3 and PS2. My 25" Billabs tri-sync is my fav crt and the one that gets the most use for these reasons.

And they don't look like most arcade games looked on their original monitors.

Quote
On Component video, it was included on all of the later Sony Trinitrons. The later models are easily the most common on Craigslist in NY / NJ. I doubt New York is unique in this respect. They really aren't hard to find for peanuts.

As I've already mentioned, Trinitrons have a flat or cylindrical tube and an aperture grille, i.e., they look wrong. For someone who wants arcade games to look like they originally did, they should look for a run-of-the-mill RCA brand or whatever with a standard spherical tube, and which has component inputs and/or can be RGB-modded.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #92 on: November 28, 2019, 10:28:11 pm »
That's all nonsense. literally all wrong.

You said that "in 2019 there is no readily accessible path to displaying 15khz rgb on a CRT". This is pure BS. Any one of us could go online right now (in 2019) and order a new or used 15khz rgb crt for delivery to our doorsteps. Groovymame is free (and awesome). This is a readily accessible path.

You said arcade monitors are rare which is also BS. There is almost always a selection on Ebay and Craigslist.

You said 15khz CRT's with component are hard to find. There is currently 7 Sony Trinitrons with component on my local Craigslist and 3 of them are being offered for free. It's been like this for years. Plus, If you search for Sony Trinitron on ebay, the list of options with component or rgb is endless, like more than I could be bothered to count.

On the rest, I'm just going to assume you've never actually seen a tri-sync crt arcade monitor. It sounds like you're regurgitating something you read and misunderstood about presentation and broadcast monitors.

The vast majority of tri-sync arcade monitors use the same tubes found in regular SD crt tv's of their day. I don't know of any that have a fine pitch like a pc monitor. If they exist at all, it's rare. The two tri-sync arcade monitors I have here use the same .8mm tubes found on late model SD crt tv's. My old curved tri-sync had a .9mm tube like crt tv's from the 90's. It looks nothing like the 0.3 or 0.4mm pitch found on presentation monitors (like an XM29) and broadcast monitors. look at the pics...

There is no requirement for tri-syncs to have a fine pitch to avoid blurring detail. The 640 x 480 vga res is the same as the 640 x 480 interlaced res used on every SD crt TV. It's the frame rate that differs, not the number of lines.

Advising people to use crt PC monitors instead of arcade monitors is terrible advice. Old arcade games look horrible on them, even if you output 240p / 120hz. They look almost as bad as an LCD. The point of using a CRT in this day an age is to play old games in their native res and refresh rate for an authentic and pleasing experience. You only get that from a 15khz capable crt and, as we've already established, they are easy to find and plentiful.






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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #93 on: November 29, 2019, 04:22:15 am »
That's all nonsense. literally all wrong.

Your mere assertion is dismissed.

Quote
You said that "in 2019 there is no readily accessible path to displaying 15khz rgb on a CRT". This is pure BS. Any one of us could go online right now (in 2019) and order a new or used 15khz rgb crt for delivery to our doorsteps. Groovymame is free (and awesome). This is a readily accessible path.

I know what I said, and when you prove that those Makvisions are currently being manufactured, I'll retract my statement. New old stock doesn't count as being readily available; if it did, then pretty much everything that's ever been manufactured could be said to be readily available.

Quote
You said arcade monitors are rare which is also BS. There is almost always a selection on Ebay and Craigslist.

Is that a joke? I said:

"In 2019, in North America, there is no readily accessible path to natively displaying a 15 KHz RGB video signal on a CRT. You either have to find a broadcast or presentation monitor, neither of which are common, or an arcade monitor, which isn't common either, relatively speaking."

Does the "bolding" help? And arcade monitors definitely aren't common, relatively speaking. They never have been and they are even less so now than in the past. They have always been a niche item. People couldn't buy them at e.g., Walmart or Sears. If you go to any random small town, chances are that no one in that town owns one or has ever owned one unless they are, or were, an arcade operator.

Quote
You said 15khz CRT's with component are hard to find.


I said they aren't common, and again, that was a relative statement:

"given that component only became a thing after the DVD format took off in the late 1990s / early 2000s, and even then, it was originally only in high-end TVs, which aren't as common as low-end TVs."

There's some more "bolding" for you, indicating that it's a relative statement.

Quote
There is currently 7 Sony Trinitrons with component on my local Craigslist and 3 of them are being offered for free. It's been like this for years. Plus, If you search for Sony Trinitron on ebay, the list of options with component or rgb is endless, like more than I could be bothered to count.

What of it? If you want to do something that's actually relevant to what I posted, count how many CRT TVs you can find without component inputs vs. ones with component inputs, and do it across the whole country.

Quote
On the rest, I'm just going to assume you've never actually seen a tri-sync crt arcade monitor. It sounds like you're regurgitating something you read and misunderstood about presentation and broadcast monitors.

Your mere assumption is dismissed.

Quote
The vast majority of tri-sync arcade monitors use the same tubes found in regular SD crt tv's of their day. I don't know of any that have a fine pitch like a pc monitor. If they exist at all, it's rare. The two tri-sync arcade monitors I have here use the same .8mm tubes found on late model SD crt tv's. My old curved tri-sync had a .9mm tube like crt tv's from the 90's. It looks nothing like the 0.3 or 0.4mm pitch found on presentation monitors (like an XM29) and broadcast monitors. look at the pics...

There is no requirement for tri-syncs to have a fine pitch to avoid blurring detail. The 640 x 480 vga res is the same as the 640 x 480 interlaced res used on every SD crt TV.

480i looks like crap when rendering computer graphics on a standard 15 KHz monitor or TV. It works okay for NTSC broadcasts, which don't require the clarity of computer graphics. Computer/arcade monitors are intended to display computer graphics and in order to look good at 640 x 480 they need a finer dot pitch than a standard tube. On the other hand, ~320 x 240 looks fine for computer graphics on a standard tube.

Quote
It's the frame rate that differs, not the number of lines.

Wrong. The refresh rate doesn't differ, it's the number of lines that differs. 480i for example is ~60 Hz and it only displays 240 lines in each cycle, alternating between the even and odd lines, to create the illusion of 480 lines (which works due to persistence of vision). 480p is ~60 Hz but displays all 480 lines in each cycle.

Quote
Advising people to use crt PC monitors instead of arcade monitors is terrible advice. Old arcade games look horrible on them, even if you output 240p / 120hz. They look almost as bad as an LCD. The point of using a CRT in this day an age is to play old games in their native res and refresh rate for an authentic and pleasing experience. You only get that from a 15khz capable crt and, as we've already established, they are easy to find and plentiful.

Is that another joke? I never advised anyone to use a PC monitor of any kind instead of an arcade monitor. I said:

"The only worse RGB CRT option [than that Makvision from Happ that you mentioned] is a late 1990s or 2000s CRT PC monitor, which has an even finer dot pitch and can't sync to anything less than ~31 KHz. "

Does the "bolding" help? Since reading obviously isn't your forte, I'll explain it further. Since I said that a CRT PC monitor is even worse than that Makvision arcade monitor you mentioned, I obviously didn't advise anyone to use one instead of an arcade monitor. I would, however, advise someone to, if feasible for them, use an RGB-modded 15 KHz TV with a standard spherical tube instead of that Makvision (or a Trinitron), if they want classic arcade games to look like they originally did in the arcades. In addition to looking right, it will also be way cheaper.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2019, 04:30:00 am by MaximRecoil »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #94 on: November 29, 2019, 05:48:18 am »
If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #95 on: November 29, 2019, 06:14:34 am »
If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

Thank you for bringing a little humor in such a toxic and trollesque discussion  :lol

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #96 on: November 29, 2019, 06:51:34 am »
Nah. They both believe in what they are talking about. They are just talking around each other. I fall into that trap too. Everybody does.


donluca

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #97 on: November 29, 2019, 08:29:00 am »
^ This.

And I'm still failing at understanding what this thread is doing in here.
On a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #98 on: November 29, 2019, 08:59:36 am »
F* you Mike, with a cactus dipped in tabasco, and I'm not talking with you here anyway. You're really an arsehole no way we'd ever have a drink ya c*

Without this thread we wouldn't have gems like this.

donluca

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #99 on: November 29, 2019, 09:29:19 am »
Ah! But I'm with you on that one, I'm not against this thread per se, I'm not seeing the point of having it in the GroovyMAME subforum. It would be excellent flame material/cannon fodder in an offtopic section of this forum.
On a scale of fakeness, from more genuine to more fake, we'd have:

1.- Plastic plants (cf. Fake Plastic Trees)
2.- Inflatable dolls
3.- Arcade cabinets with LCD monitors

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2019, 10:44:04 am »
That's admins job to push away the flaming topics in the right section.

Zebra

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #101 on: December 01, 2019, 02:44:20 pm »
If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

I often make the mistake of thinking the irrefutable truth will change people's opinions even though I know it won't and that it doesn't matter either way... I keep promising myself that I will just ignore it when people spread nonsense. Oh well, it's another new year's resolution.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #102 on: December 02, 2019, 07:06:26 am »
If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

I often make the mistake of thinking the irrefutable truth will change people's opinions even though I know it won't and that it doesn't matter either way... I keep promising myself that I will just ignore it when people spread nonsense. Oh well, it's another new year's resolution.

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming that I "advised people to use crt PC monitors instead of arcade monitors" when I did no such thing?

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming that new arcade monitors have always cost $500?

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming "640 x 480 vga res is the same as the 640 x 480 interlaced res used on every SD crt TV. It's the frame rate that differs, not the number of lines" even though, in reality, the refresh rate is the same but 480i never draws more than 240 lines per cycle while 480p draws 480 lines per cycle?

"Irrefutable truth" like claiming I said that I "said arcade monitors are rare" when I said no such thing?

Are those the sort of "irrefutable truths" you're referring to?

In any case, since you decided to resign after your so-called "irrefutable truths" were refuted, your tacit concession on the matter is noted.

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #103 on: December 02, 2019, 07:19:08 am »
You guys are almost there. Just a few thousand more words. It's going to happen. I can feel it.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #104 on: December 02, 2019, 11:19:55 am »
If one of you posts enough text you will change the other's mind. I just know it. You guys just haven't used enough words yet.

You guys are almost there. Just a few thousand more words. It's going to happen. I can feel it.

Why did you make essentially the same post twice? It wasn't clever the first time, let alone the second (which makes your stab at condescension comically ironic), and it also demonstrated a fundamental lack of understanding of the point of arguments. "Changing the other's mind" is utterly irrelevant. For example, if there is an argument over whether two plus two equals four or five, does it matter if anyone's mind gets changed? Obviously not. The facts aren't affected in the slightest by someone changing their mind. Arguments are one of the most effective ways of bringing facts to light.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 11:25:43 am by MaximRecoil »

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2019, 11:23:27 am »
I wasn't shooting for clever. I just wanted to annoy a couple of blow hards. Mission accomplished. Now continue with you altruistic quest to shine a beacon of light on the facts.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2019, 11:46:17 am »
I wasn't shooting for clever. I just wanted to annoy a couple of blow hards. Mission accomplished. Now continue with you altruistic quest to shine a beacon of light on the facts.

If your goal is to be annoying then you're admittedly a "troll," albeit an ineffectual one (your premature "mission accomplished" declaration notwithstanding). 

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2019, 12:23:51 pm »
It seems like it is working pretty well so far. I think I proved that you will engage in the dumbest conversation imaginable.

MaximRecoil

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2019, 07:18:29 pm »
It seems like it is working pretty well so far.

Your second laughable attempt at a crystal ball reading is dismissed.

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I think I proved that you will engage in the dumbest conversation imaginable.

Your non sequitur is dismissed.

Mike A

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2019, 10:05:43 pm »
Still going.

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Re: My take on arcade emulation.
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2019, 11:58:08 pm »
Just catching up with this very subjective thread.
Seems mostly like a cultural and generational debate.

As for the earlier points of ease of building, you new builders got it waaaaay easier than 10+ years ago. Software and hardware options were very limited. We had all kinds of hacks to get things as authentic to the arcade experience as possible. And you know what? People still did it, and this site in particular was way more active and interesting than it is today.

Just look at projects today. You can count the actual intriguing ones on one hand right now. Back then, there were dozens of great projects with more active members. Just look at the stickies Hall of Fame thread. Most of them were from great problem solvers that didnít have the shortcuts we have today.

You guys are lucky.