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Author Topic: Oled monitor  (Read 7261 times)

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pbj

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #40 on: October 27, 2019, 11:07:55 am »
Sure would be nice if we saw some pics rather than more posts of you jerking off about how the monitor you coincidentally own is the best.  (*looks at all of you*)

This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

wp34

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2019, 01:15:37 pm »
Sure would be nice if we saw some pics rather than more posts of you jerking off about how the monitor you coincidentally own is the best.  (*looks at all of you*)


I've tried but the blacks on my Plasma are so DEEP that it sucks all the light out of the room.  Impossible to photograph.   ;D

opt2not

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2019, 01:47:38 pm »
 :laugh2:

Zebra

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #43 on: October 27, 2019, 03:09:32 pm »
This guy made a semi almost interesting video comparing a 4k Oled to an 8k lcd. It says what many of us already know but still worth a (quick) look:



It annoys me that manufacturers are already trying to push 8k tv's and not just because I don't believe I'd notice any benefit. We have only just started to see a trickle of 4k content. It's not even a cable TV standard yet. Only the next gen of consoles, that aren't out until next year, will be capable of acceptable 4k performance. Just as the world is starting to catch up, out comes the rug from under our feet.... again...

It should be obvious to these guys that everything looks best at native res and flat-screen tv's only have one of those. Must we watch everything with upscaling noise forever more.... And, as gamers, it just creates more issues for very little benefit.


Osirus23

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #44 on: October 27, 2019, 06:36:00 pm »
There isn't any noise or distortion upscaling 1080p to 4k. It's an integer scale so one pixel from the input just becomes 4 pixels on the display. I use 1080p sources on my 4k TV all the time.

pbj

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #45 on: October 27, 2019, 06:39:14 pm »
Bigger is always better, more resolution is always better.

Still waiting on pics.

 :cheers:
This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

opt2not

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #46 on: October 27, 2019, 10:38:03 pm »
There isn't any noise or distortion upscaling 1080p to 4k. It's an integer scale so one pixel from the input just becomes 4 pixels on the display. I use 1080p sources on my 4k TV all the time.
^ Yup, this.


schmerzkaufen

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2019, 06:24:18 am »
Definitely not all 4K displays offer a clean perfect 4x multiplication of 1080p, forced processing with interpolation is widespread, which isn't good for people who need clean integers.
It is a common mistake to assume because a display's native res is a multiple of a source that it will diplay it multiplied without issues, not all TVs and monitors actually have a setting allowing that, manufacturers are very good at ruining the simplest things.

Now of course if a forced treatment is very light and balanced the loss in details and integers can be so moderate people don't notice (Sony do that well, but they also offer unprocessed 4x on several of their TVs)

Just doing the math, thinking of multiple or more resolution real estate, does not guarantee scaling either integer or fractional will be clean or good.
Displays are not just AV science, they're also a lot of products knowledge. If only the former mattered we could buy any display and always have the same quality.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2019, 06:36:54 am by schmerzkaufen »
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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2019, 03:36:58 pm »
It's always sexual with pbj.....

Zebra

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2019, 04:11:33 pm »
There isn't any noise or distortion upscaling 1080p to 4k. It's an integer scale so one pixel from the input just becomes 4 pixels on the display. I use 1080p sources on my 4k TV all the time.


That's true. Native 1080p and even 720p stuff looks good on LG Oleds. So, as I said, anything PS3 and above looks great (without any external scalers). The problem is with lower res content. You get excess noise with old SD TV content and  15khz or 31khz games look like my granny's gash (a bit of a mess). I.e. Horrible jaggies and noise on bright solid colors. Integer or not, old 240p arcade games look noticeably worse than on my 1080p monitors and they never looked great on those either.

I use my 12" Oled tablet for mame when traveling which is 1600p and it's a different story. You still need HLSL but the end result is pleasing. The lower res and smaller size seems to help a lot.




Zebra

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2019, 05:10:50 pm »
I made some videos of old arcade games on the Oled using my PS3. I can't honestly say they capture the actual look. The camera seems to add a softening effect which makes games look a little better than they do in person but here they are anyway:

Simpsons with the PS3's smoothing effects:



Simpsons with the PS3's smoothing effects turned off:




And Metal Slug with smoothing and fake scanlines turned on:



You can see a bit noise on the metal slug video which I think is made a lot worse by the fake scanlines. I think HLSL effects in mame does a better job than the PS3's more basic scaling and smoothing. If you aren't using a PC with mame, you will want a decent scaler like an XRGB mini. I would suggesting avoiding all console emulators completely.



pbj

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2019, 05:59:43 pm »
Nice contrast on the colors, though. 
This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

Zebra

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #52 on: October 29, 2019, 03:05:03 pm »
Nice contrast on the colors, though.

Yeah the contrast is unmatched. I can see details on ps3 games that I didn't know were there. One of my CRT monitors is an Ikegami TM20-90RH which is an uber high-end broadcast monitor. My Oleds are the only displays I have seen that can best them on contrast. The blacks are darker than the bezel so you don't even notice the 4:3 aspect ratio on the 16:9 screen.

It's just the extreme scaling required for old 15khz games that let's them down as an arcade monitor (like all 4k flatscreens). Until they invent a new display tech that can switch resolutions like CRT, this issue will get progressively worse.

Perhaps we'll get lucky and some industrious manufacturer will spot the opportunity to make a modern retro gaming oled with a 640 x 480 pitch, a 240 line mode and a 4:3 aspect ratio so we can avoid trying to scale 240 lines into 8000+.


Moksi

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2019, 01:54:32 pm »
well confirmed that the contrasts & refresh rate is alot better than lcd thats a good option to get one

i just starting to tune the gamma brightness contrast in Mame on my lcd , with a crt trinitron the colors are right.
you can get close its not perfect so with time if oled monitors become available i want to have one 

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2019, 03:35:56 pm »
Oled monitors are already available. They are just expensive. The Sony BVM Oleds are amazing though. They're in a different league to the consumer Oled tv's in terms of motion blur. They have a suitably outrageous price to match.

For now, the best (realistic) option for gaming oleds is the 2018 and 2019 LG models. The smaller (55") models can be had new for well under $1000. LG seems to have finally understood the importance of low input lag on their game modes. Lag is now low enough to be undetectable. It's around 30ms. You can get a little less lag on a dedicated gaming monitor but I don't believe anyone can perceive a difference between 30ms and 15ms. Try counting to 1000 in 1 second to get a sense of how fast 1ms is.

Also, gaming on larger screens is just better. Driving, flying and light gun games are particularly awesome on a large screen.

Mark Norville

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #55 on: November 04, 2019, 08:23:41 am »
An interesting read, however a very worrying one. I say worrying simply because certain people on this thread kept mentioning PLASMA.

Yes I had to use caps for PLASMA simply because these people do not even understand that PLASMA is no longer produced because it was RUBBISH.

It was just another buzzword that was floated around every couple of years to make you upgrade to a new TV.

You want a TV or monitor for an arcade cabinet, using another buzz word. However you want to play retro games from twenty or thirty years ago.

IRONIC seems to be the buzz word here. What is the actual point of doing so? Unless you are using it also to game on with an xbox one x as well as emulation, then you might as well just buy a bog standard non BUZZWORD monitor.

As the saying goes, fools and their money easily parted. The industry has just released 4k and now they are getting ready for 8k so no matter what BUZZWORD you buy, it is already out of date.

However, please totally ignore people saying to purchase a plasma, they are not being produced any more, and it makes me shudder that in 2019 people do not know that.

Regards

Mark

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2019, 12:07:35 pm »
However, please totally ignore people saying to purchase a plasma, they are not being produced any more, and it makes me shudder that in 2019 people do not know that.

Ok.

The last plasma TVs ended sale five years ago.

As to the rest of your post: Go take your meds.

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2019, 02:37:33 pm »
Yes I had to use caps for PLASMA simply because these people do not even understand that PLASMA is no longer produced because it was RUBBISH.

It was just another buzzword that was floated around every couple of years to make you upgrade to a new TV.

everything is rubbish when you compare it next to something else. everything has shortcomings, and strong points when compared to something else.

well... pre-plasma was DLP, which is not without it's own set of shortcomings... LCD DLP sorta solved SOME of those issues but introduced others... but in a nutshell, modified projection.

Pre-DLP was projection...which was basically modified CRT

plasma was the first large display direct viewing display since CRT. it was what was attainable with the technology at the time. large panel LCD's where  not feasible... where even 19" LCD panels where having large reject rates due to pixel defects let alone 30 or 40" panels. that's why them 50 and 60 inch panel TV's where 20 grand.

it's really only natural that as the technology gets better, the technology changes. i'm sure if you beamed the information telepathically directly into your brain, people would still complain about lag and...i dunno... visual retention...or some ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Zebra

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #58 on: November 06, 2019, 01:26:54 pm »
An interesting read, however a very worrying one. I say worrying simply because certain people on this thread kept mentioning PLASMA.

Yes I had to use caps for PLASMA simply because these people do not even understand that PLASMA is no longer produced because it was RUBBISH.

It was just another buzzword that was floated around every couple of years to make you upgrade to a new TV.

You want a TV or monitor for an arcade cabinet, using another buzz word. However you want to play retro games from twenty or thirty years ago.

IRONIC seems to be the buzz word here. What is the actual point of doing so? Unless you are using it also to game on with an xbox one x as well as emulation, then you might as well just buy a bog standard non BUZZWORD monitor.

As the saying goes, fools and their money easily parted. The industry has just released 4k and now they are getting ready for 8k so no matter what BUZZWORD you buy, it is already out of date.

However, please totally ignore people saying to purchase a plasma, they are not being produced any more, and it makes me shudder that in 2019 people do not know that.

Regards

Mark

Everyone knows that plasma is not produced any more. We all know that CRT is not produced any more too and yet, it's still the best tech for retro gaming by miles.

Plasma production didn't stop because it was rubbish. It was just less cost effective and most people don't care about image quality. They just want cheap. Anybody who ACTUALLY understands display tech knows that plasma is a superior technology to LCD.

Mark Norville

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2019, 02:41:36 pm »
CRT is only superior for gaming, simply because if you are old, then that is what we grew up with, so in our minds it was better for gaming.

It is like being alive when Ghostbusters came out, we all hate the female reboot of Ghostbusters, the list is endless about what we like and what we do not like.

I personally hate EVERYTHING about today's society. However, that is digressing. Give me a time machine and I will gladly go back to the 70's, 80's and the 90's again. No faceyawn, no idiots staring at their mobile phones as they walk down the streets, no cat videos, the list is endless.

However, do you drive? Do you have a ferrari? The chances are no, but you settle for what you can afford.

As I have said before, every few years they bring out new technology to sell more TV sets, it is not about being better, it is just about bringing the companies in more money. Yes technology moves forwards and it always will do, however that will always come at the expensive of the rich mugs who hand their money over to them.

The same as digital media is doing now, gamers paying for digital content and digital download instead of buying hard copies. Games companies charging £30 for a year or more old game, that I can buy for a couple of pounds in a second hand games shop.

The more you feed their greed, the more they will take.

Regards

Mark

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2019, 03:22:41 pm »
Yes I had to use caps for PLASMA simply because these people do not even understand that PLASMA is no longer produced because it was RUBBISH.

It was just another buzzword that was floated around every couple of years to make you upgrade to a new TV.

everything is rubbish when you compare it next to something else. everything has shortcomings, and strong points when compared to something else.

well... pre-plasma was DLP, which is not without it's own set of shortcomings... LCD DLP sorta solved SOME of those issues but introduced others... but in a nutshell, modified projection.

Pre-DLP was projection...which was basically modified CRT

plasma was the first large display direct viewing display since CRT. it was what was attainable with the technology at the time. large panel LCD's where  not feasible... where even 19" LCD panels where having large reject rates due to pixel defects let alone 30 or 40" panels. that's why them 50 and 60 inch panel TV's where 20 grand.

it's really only natural that as the technology gets better, the technology changes. i'm sure if you beamed the information telepathically directly into your brain, people would still complain about lag and...i dunno... visual retention...or some ---steaming pile of meadow muffin---.

Mark Norville

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2019, 03:47:56 pm »
You could do that for oled and qled, porsche and ferrari, tom and jerry or more famously VHS and Betamax

You always have technology wars, between one and the other, you always have a new format coming out every so often just to sell more TV's as I keep saying.

However, to give a more game related theme PS4 and Xbox one X you have fan boys from all sides saying one is better than the other. It will never change.

Oled is over kill for retro gaming as to what the original post was about, in my eyes at least, I am playing the same game as someone else is, if you want to play Sonic on a $30 monitor or a $3,000 monitor, it is all the same game. I am not going to lose sleep or pay an extra $2,970 just to play a 30 year old game, because it is 2 pixels sharper than a $30 monitor.

If someone really wants to play retro games on a $3,000 monitor, that is up to them.

Figures are just an example and not a real price.

opt2not

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2019, 07:28:09 pm »
As promised hereís some shots of my LG OLED 4K 65Ē, running a Sega Saturn - RGB to an OSSC outputting 5x mode 1080p.

As you can see the image quality is fantastic, the blacks are deep, you canít even make the distinction of the black frame from the displayed black pixels.

And of course, motion is spot on. I was playing Dodonpachi, a fairly dense high rate pixel game and was getting no noise or ghosting of the image in motion.
Note: the Outrun port on the Saturn runs at 60fps. Itís like butter on this display.  :cheers:

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2019, 09:20:21 pm »
Good lord that looks awesome.

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #64 on: November 13, 2019, 09:22:58 pm »
It's crisp as hell I'll give it that.  I just keep looking at the price tag every time I aim to pull the trigger.  My hp 2009m is getting pretty long in the tooth.... so is the pc it came with for that matter. 

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #65 on: November 14, 2019, 02:58:08 pm »
It's crisp as hell I'll give it that.  I just keep looking at the price tag every time I aim to pull the trigger.  My hp 2009m is getting pretty long in the tooth.... so is the pc it came with for that matter.

Just go for it. The prices on the "smaller" 55" and 65" models are a bargain right now for what you get. You only live once!

My Oled displays make me happy every time I turn them on. If you're someone who appreciates a quality display then they're a no-brainer. Driving games are especially awesome on a large Oled. And... you did just build an awesome driving cab that is in need of an equally awesome monitor...

opt2not

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #66 on: November 14, 2019, 03:14:07 pm »
A few more shots of upscaling some arcade boards through the HAS Supergun and OSSC.

opt2not

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #67 on: November 14, 2019, 03:15:44 pm »
Thatís all, folks.

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2019, 10:58:37 pm »
I canít tell from the pics, but does the OSSC introduce scanlines, phosphor glow, etc?  It looks like on the close ups you have some scan lines but itís hard to tell.  I hadnít heard of the device until your post.  It looks like an upscaler, but curious to know if it introduces CRT effects?

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2019, 12:35:39 am »
I canít tell from the pics, but does the OSSC introduce scanlines, phosphor glow, etc?  It looks like on the close ups you have some scan lines but itís hard to tell.  I hadnít heard of the device until your post.  It looks like an upscaler, but curious to know if it introduces CRT effects?

Yes, there are scanline options for making them lighter, or darker or none at all.  You can also make the scanlines crosshatched like a Gameboy screen. Thatís all the ĎCRT-likeí options there are though. The glow youíre seeing is probably just the light glare onto the camera.

The OSSC is the best upscaler on the market. Itís affordable for a high end scaler, available everywhere (because itís open-sourced) and constantly being updated. They just released a firmware that introduces an OSD, which makes it even more awesome.
I highly recommend it!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 12:38:51 am by opt2not »

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2019, 02:22:36 am »
Yes, there are scanline options for making them lighter, or darker or none at all.  You can also make the scanlines crosshatched like a Gameboy screen. Thatís all the ĎCRT-likeí options there are though. The glow youíre seeing is probably just the light glare onto the camera.

You can do better than make it look like a GB dot matrix screen tho, horizontal and vertical line are adjustable independently and there's tricks to change the look.

Plus there's the hybrid scanlines setting to make the brightness distribution more realistic, that kinda works as a compensation for glow.

For me it's adjustable-enough a feature to make an honourable CRT-like imitation.

http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=1366119#p1366119
(shi* many pics gone, the hori lines are very pronounced here but you can have the other way around with more faint lines and bigger dots if you want)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2019, 06:24:55 am by schmerzkaufen »
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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #71 on: November 15, 2019, 04:49:30 pm »
I think the perception of an additional phosphor glow effect on a crt vs other display tech only really applies to LCD. CRT, Plasma and Oled all light pixels individually by applying electricity to phosphors . The pixels on LCD displays don't "glow" in the same way because they don't output light. The light comes from a white back-light. Oled pixels glow like CRT but they are considerably brighter.

The way we remember CRT's from the arcades is also effected by the signal from original PCBs. Old CGA and EGA pcbs output a 3-5v rgb signal VS just 0.7v from consumer RGB and VGA PCBs. If you display both  unaltered on the same monitor, the CGA PCB would be considerably brighter. Standard definition arcade monitors are set to a lower peak brightness to compensate but original CGA PCBs still tend to look brighter compared to a PC outputting the same game with groovymame (unless you go through a Supergun with a resistor array).

I did some testing a while ago with my original SF2 CE PCB and my Neo Geo MVS on my CRT arcade monitors to check if the output from my groovymame PC looked the same. Even with my RGB signal booster, the original PCB looked way brighter than the same games from groovymame. I was able to replicate the look of the original by increasing the contrast and adjusting the gamma setting in mame though.

I use both Oled and CRT arcade monitors  and my view is that the pixel glow is noticeably greater on the Oled. The extra contrast with Oled really adds to this perception. I think Oleds do a nicer job (than LCDs) with CRT-like effects too. It's not as good as a CRT for old 240p games but the look is as close (to CRT) as I've seen on flatscreen tech, especially on smaller Oleds. I use a 12" 1600p oled tablet for mame when I travel and it looks fairly authentic:


Arroyo

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #72 on: November 15, 2019, 05:38:55 pm »
I think the perception of an additional phosphor glow effect on a crt vs other display tech only really applies to LCD. CRT, Plasma and Oled all light pixels individually by applying electricity to phosphors . The pixels on LCD displays don't "glow" in the same way because they don't output light. The light comes from a white back-light. Oled pixels glow like CRT but they are considerably brighter.

I think the reference to Phosphor glow isnít in relation to the pixels themselves but rather the halo effect around the pixels that you get on a CRT.  Meaning the persistence of light from the neighboring phosphor as the beam is scanning across the screen.  Hereís an example on the right:



And another one here:



Edit:  you bring up a good point about the brightness levels from a PCB vs. computer graphics card, that does play a factor in a GroovyMame setup for sure.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 05:44:23 pm by Arroyo »

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Re: Oled monitor
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2019, 10:54:32 am »
That halo effect is considered an artifact by some and not something that should be replicated. The bloom which has a softening effect and masks visible gaps between scanlines is most prevalent on low quality CRTs (especially when contrast is set too high as it often was in arcades). On high end CRTs there is very bleeding of light between pixels as it kills contrast and detail.

The image on an Oled with mame's shaders turned on, or via a decent scaler resembles a high end crt more than an arcade monitor. If you crave an authentic arcade look (as I do usually) nothing beats a CRT arcade monitor. If that same image was displayed on an Oled the background would be jet black with clean edges to the bright white text. It provides technical excellence more than authenticity.

With LCDs on the other hand, they do have a halo effect which kills contrast. It's considered one of their biggest weaknesses. I think you're still better off with an Oled display if it has to be an HD flat screen.