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Author Topic: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV  (Read 2409 times)

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Alaska

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DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« on: September 27, 2019, 01:10:36 pm »
**EDITED 1/21/20***  The answer to the question of if a DVI or VGA connection is best for connecting a PC directly to a TV to produce decent graphics is possibly neither. The solution I am using, as stated below, uses an HDMI output from a Raedon 4350 graphics card  into an HDMI to Component converter (Linked in LilShawn's post below) then component to TV connection. NOTE - CRTEmudrivers suggest 5000 or newer cards as 4000 and lower do not support some functionality.

BEST WAY TO GO FOR THIS APPLICATION - Based on a review of some other posts, the best way to connect a PC to a TV is using a VGA into an RGB modded SD TV. I have no use for audio and will only connect this to a PC so SCART is a more complicated alternative. The RBG mod will allow for a better quality image and there are many online walk throughs (mostly for Sony Trinitron TVs) to complete the RGB Mod. If you are new at this - thoroughly read the dangers of working with high voltage TV sets including how to safely discharge ad handle the tube and chassis. I plan to start another post for the RBG Mod I am about to attempt.

**Do not use a DVI to component cable alone as it will not work! The signal needs to be converted. Be sure to buy a converter that delivers the correct resolution to your TV. For me that is 480i - meaning a standard definition "NTSC" TV with an "i" interlaced image where every 60th of a second half the image is displayed. Standard def delivers 640x480 at 4:3 aspect ratio.

ORIGINAL POST from here down:
I am excited to start my second build after a nearly 4-year hiatus. I recovered at 27-inch Sylvania CRT TV 6427FF from a recycling area at the dump along with 2009 Dell desktop computer running Windows 7. Both work great. I dumped an old VisionTek Radeon 4350 graphics card (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002AKKMNI/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1) in and now want to find the best way to connect the PC to the TV. In doing some catch up reading on the forum, component input invokes the best resolution on CRT TVs. I purchased a DVI-component adapter (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002HH0VOE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 but cannot get a signal on the TV. Just snow and wavy lines... I feel like I am missing something easy here... I tried nearly all resolution settings... Side note I was able to get a signal on my old LCD TV using the cord, but it would disappear and say no signal when I moved a file window onto that monitor screen...

Multi-tiered question here as I want to find the best way to connect the PC to the TV to get a similar resolution as my 25" Wells Gardner monitor that I used for my first build (connected that one with an Arcade VGA from ultimarc).

Am I over complicating things using the DVI output? Is the fix as easy as getting a VGA-component adapter? Should I purchase a different graphics card? Sometimes the easiest fix isn't the best, but I feel like I may be going down a rabbit hole here...

Many thanks and great to be back and active.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 05:09:23 pm by Alaska »

lilshawn

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2019, 02:29:39 pm »
Quote
This cable is intended for use with projectors that use a DVI-I connector for its component (YPbPr) video connection
This cable DOES NOT CONVERT DVI signals to component video or vice versa
It DOES NOT CONVERT digital to analog or vice versa
It functions only with devices that use the DVI-I connector for component video

you purchased a cable and you are LITERALLY doing everything it says not to and wonder why it doesn't work?

you need to CONVERT your signal.

https://www.amazon.com/Portta-Component-Converter-Scaler-support/dp/B00JVNUAEI/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=DVI+to+YPBPR&qid=1569608559&s=electronics&sr=1-3

you also need to look at your TV and see if those are actually YPbPr input on the TV. there is a difference between the R/G/B compoNENT connections and  R/G/B compoSITE connections. .. typically older TV's had composite.

Quote
similar resolution as my 25" Wells Gardner monitor

not gonna happen unless you RGB input mod it.

newmanfamilyvlogs

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2019, 04:43:03 pm »
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/510730/Sylvania-6427ff.html#manual
This manual says that model should have component inputs on the back, so GroovyMame to the rescue with a VGA->Component breakout cable.
I'm pretty sure a 4350 should work with the CRT Emudrivers.

lilshawn

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2019, 10:16:50 pm »
480i input only.


Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2019, 10:29:38 pm »
Quote

you need to CONVERT your signal.

https://www.amazon.com/Portta-Component-Converter-Scaler-support/dp/B00JVNUAEI/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=DVI+to+YPBPR&qid=1569608559&s=electronics&sr=1-3


Good news is that I bought one of those at the same time figuring that I wasn't thinking things through. So, I can try the HDMI output to component conversion and plug it back in.

https://www.manualslib.com/manual/510730/Sylvania-6427ff.html#manual
This manual says that model should have component inputs on the back, so GroovyMame to the rescue with a VGA->Component breakout cable.
I'm pretty sure a 4350 should work with the CRT Emudrivers.

I used HyperSpin with my first build and love the frontend graphics, wheels, etc. Is GroovyMame able to invoke different more desirable resolutions when compared to HyperSpin? Again, my first build used a more desirable monitor and graphics card for this application. I just want to be sure that I take the right steps moving forward and don't spin my wheels again.

Thanks all!

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2019, 04:33:11 pm »
I connected HDMI to HD converter HDMI input. Then connected component output to TV... the display does not show. I have changed resolutions, restarted, etc... what am I missing here?



Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2019, 06:15:51 pm »
I am guessing that the output resolution for the component cable isn't 480i and is upscaled... I'll try the one @lilshawn posted and update later

newmanfamilyvlogs

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2019, 09:09:47 am »
GroovyMame is a build that, along with the CRTEmudrivers package, dynamically generates different resolutions for each game, OR in the case of a limited 480i display such as what you have there, attempts to tweak the signal to get a close approximation of the original games resolution on whatever target display is available. If your monitor has VGA output, you'll be directly driving the component inputs of the television with an appropriate breakout cable.

Once you've set up the proper display modes with CRTEmudrivers, you can run Hyperspin, which will launch the Groovymame build (which then does any video mode tweaking).

GroovyMame has its own dedicated subforum:
http://newforum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/board,52.0.html

It's absolutely worth the effort of learning how it works.

lilshawn

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2019, 10:52:57 am »
there are 2 types of converters... ones that change the video connector type (VGA to DVI...HDMI to DVI etc.)  typically these signals are similar enough or there is support in them for the other signal types, so simply a conversion of the connector is necessary.

the other changes the video signal itself. (VGA to composite... HDMI to component... VGA to HDMI etc) these are signals that are completely different and need to be scaled up/down or from analog to digital or digital to analog.

your TV will only accept 480i signal. you need to either feed it a 480i signal or if you are not able to supply a 480i signal...use a converter to change your signal whatever it may be up or down to match 480i these are commonly called scalers.

i can see here, you are using a computer for your video out. you need to tell your computer to output the proper signal, in this case....480i.

you also need to realize that there is a difference between setting your computer for 640x480 and out putting 480i... the video signal from the computer at 640x480 is a progressive scan. (480p) meaning an entire frame is sent at a time. your TV is 480i meaning you get an entire screens worth of even lines video in one frame and an entire screens worth of odd lines video in the next.

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2019, 12:22:00 pm »
I think the main issue is that I cannot select a 480i signal from my graphics card through the display settings or AMD catalyst control center. I can select 640x480 but the output signal still doesn't jive with the what the TV needs as an input. The converter that @lilshawn posted has a resolution button on the back that states it can toggle, "YPbPr Video Output Format : 480i/576i/480p/576p/720p/1080i/1080P." That should be the solution that I need to get a picture.

My original build was using Windows XP SP3 and I'll be using Windows 7 this go around. There are some updates that I will need to do to get everything working, and will start reading up on CRTEmudrivers & Groovy Mame. It sounds like HyperSpin will work as a frontend, and GroovyMame will be used as a MAME emulator.

I am building this cab from the ground up and am pretty excited to get back at it. Thanks for the help all! I'll update here when I get the video working.
 

lilshawn

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2019, 03:01:28 pm »
https://www.amazon.com/Jahyshow-Component-Converter-Adapter-Macbook/dp/B079CC85L1/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=hd+video+converter&qid=1569869342&sr=8-5

Quote
Note: 1、Some traditional CTR display not work after connected witch this Converter This mainly caused by these Displays only supporting 480i and 576i YPbPr interlaced resolution. Therefore, we suggest to choose LCD Display or those can support YPbPr CRT Displays. 2、Some connected Displays may have no image after setting the resolution of HDMI source at 1080P.This not caused by our products but YPbPr channel of Displays not supporting resolution at 1080P.
Support HDMI input resolution: 30Hz 1080p/60Hz,1080i/60Hz, 720p/60Hz, 576p/60Hz, 576i/60Hz, 480p/60Hz, 480i/60Hz; Support Ypbpr component output: 1080p/60Hz, 1080i/60Hz, 720P/60Hz, 720i/60Hz, 480p/60Hz, 480i/60Hz. Supports165MHz/1.65Gbps per channel (6.75Gbps all channel) bandwidth for HDMI Input


in a nutshell, this TV is going to be a PITA to get a decent pic displayed and even then, it's not going to be great since it ONLY supports 480i. I would look into soft15k and RGB modding the TV to accept straight RGB input which you can scab right out of the VGA DB15 connector. I would just ignore HDMI since it contains purely digital signals that need to be converted to analog to run on your TV anyways.

Arroyo

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2019, 05:20:57 pm »
You've got good advice going on here from the folks above.  I would second newmanfamilyvlogs that you should highly consider reading up on GroovyMame.  CRT Emudriver modifies the drivers of your ATI/AMD graphics card to allow it send signals below 480p (31khz).  As lilshawn said the graphics cards don't really want to go below 480p as that was the standard for computers. 

You can get a good signal to the TV, you will have a couple of hurdles though. 

1.) With Component input (PyPbPr) you can't simply connect the VGA to Component cable.  You will have to do a conversion via a Transcoder.
2.) You can as lilshawn suggested RGB modify the TV to accept a direct RGB signal (one that comes from your computer).

Problems with 1.) is that Transcoders that don't scale or convert the signal aren't that easy to come by (expensive too).
Problems with 2.) is that RGB modifying a TV requires a decent amount of knowledge of CRT's and comfort with soldering and potentially looking up schematics.

I bought my transcoder off of a guy that was putting them together on e-bay, but he appears to not be selling them anymore

Here is one I found that may work, although you would definitely want to confirm with them that it doesn't do any scaling, just transcoding.

As for RGB modifying the TV, there is a great resource for doing so on the Schumps Forum here .  I would also suggest doing a YouTube search for RGB modifying a TV into YouTube to get a sense of what it entails.

Lastly, as that appears to be a Sony Trinitron clone (use of aperture grille), there may be challenges in getting signals below 59Hz.  At least that was the experience of myself and a number of others in using Sony's flat panel CRT's.  A number of original arcade titles used refresh rates below 59hz, and you have to accept some compromises.  Sylvania could be using a different chassis on the TV making this a none issue.

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2019, 03:07:09 pm »
Are there any specific CRT TVs that would be better suited for this application. I pulled this one from a recycling area at the dump and was hoping to repurpose it. I can always scour local classifieds, craigslist or pawn shops if there is a better option.

OR

Is it easier to get the desired resolution from an LCD or LED display? Those things are becoming a dime a dozen as well.

Arroyo

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2019, 03:56:58 pm »
Are there any specific CRT TVs that would be better suited for this application. I pulled this one from a recycling area at the dump and was hoping to repurpose it. I can always scour local classifieds, craigslist or pawn shops if there is a better option.
OR
Is it easier to get the desired resolution from an LCD or LED display? Those things are becoming a dime a dozen as well.

The one you have is fine, you just either need to spend money on the Transcoder, or spend some time researching the RGB mod (there are a lot of examples on the link I provided, and YouTube shows a lot of people that have done it).

The only plug and play CRT experience we have here is Arcade monitors, which are harder to come by (at least in my area).

There was mention of changing the output signal from the graphics cards from RGB to Component (PyPbPr), but I hadn't seen anything definitively that there were examples of people doing it.

Don't go the LCD route, we need to keep the CRT's alive, and they look and perform a lot better.

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2019, 04:31:20 pm »
Thanks Arroyo! I'll watch the videos and see if I can't modify the TV. I did some work with the WG chassis on my original unit and felt comfortable working with the components. I will definitely need a new soldering iron though!

buttersoft

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2019, 07:14:02 pm »
What Arroyo said.

Also, Soft15kHz might still work for Win XP builds if you don't upgrade to SP1... Not to mention the need to hunt down a GPU old enough to work with it.

Using a modernish low-end Nvidia card and trying to force outputs using CRU and the NVCP might work a bit better, but then again it probably won't.

An ArcadeVGA card might work, but then again you might run into setup issues on Win 7 or newer, and there's no fix.

crt_emudriver is by far the best option for 15kHz output from a PC. It does require a Radeon HD 5000 series up to about the R7 300 series to work easily, but older cards and Win XP are still a better option than Soft15kHz if you already have the hardware.

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2019, 02:06:59 pm »
Based on my chip setup not having an RGB input, I think I am going to have to find another TV to use. Any suggestions before I trash this one?

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2019, 02:14:16 pm »
Here is another diagram

Arroyo

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 05:44:47 pm »
Sorry was out of town for a few days.  I don't know that I would be a lot of help as I haven't done any mods myself.  There are a number of folks on here that have, and if you bump this over to the GroovyMame forum you might get their attention.  I do plan on doing this to a number of sets that I have picked up, but my current project has commanded my focus.  Alternatively, you can start reaching out to the folks at the Schmups forum that I posted the link to as they have a lot of experience.

lilshawn

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2019, 09:20:48 pm »
all you have there are the schematics for the main computer... nothing there is of help. if you are going to attempt RGB mod, you need to look at where the video from your OSD is going... this is going to run into an amplifier the drives some transistors that actually drive the guns in the tube.

i feel you may not have the expertise needed to do a mod like this and you may be better of obtaining a ready made solution like an actual arcade monitor... or an older CRT VGA monitor.

buttersoft

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2019, 11:16:06 pm »
Errr, is that actually a combined jungle and micom? I don't think it's feasible to hack RGB into one of those, everything you'd need to get to is internal and won't have an external pin.

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2019, 11:29:54 pm »
@buttersoft - thatís exactly what it looks like to me too. Everything is integrated into one chip and there is no raw RGB input anywhere on the board. Back to the drawing board...

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2019, 11:54:57 am »
If you are trying to connect a PC to an SD CRT, it should be straightforward.

Crt emu drivers and groovymame is free and works with AMD 4000 series. I used to use a 4000 series card. Just find the right version.

Once your pc is outputting a 15khz signal, you just need a transcoder. Most AMD cards from that range can output analog RGB via DVI- I or VGA. I used to use a Jrok to convert 15khz analog RGB to component video. There are various others options too.

buttersoft

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2019, 06:53:46 pm »
Calamity has asked very nicely that we stop recommending Radeon HD 4000 series cards altogether. The HD 5000 series and newer (check the lists) are much preferred, and work better on Win 7 or Win 10.

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2019, 01:39:56 pm »
Well....  On a roll today.  (And buttersoft with reply #23 - forward!)

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2020, 06:30:07 pm »
If you are trying to connect a PC to an SD CRT, it should be straightforward.

Crt emu drivers and groovymame is free and works with AMD  4000 (insert) 5000 series. I used to use a 4000 (insert) 5000 series card. Just find the right version.

Once your pc is outputting a 15khz signal, you just need a transcoder. Most AMD cards from that range can output analog RGB via DVI- I or VGA. I used to use a Jrok to convert 15khz analog RGB to component video. There are various others options too.
And this will produce a picture similar to an RGB modded TV?

Update - I kept checking the local recycle center for a 27" CRT and found an old JVC (AV 2771S) after Christmas. After looking at the manual it looks like it may work?! The only RGB "in" on the PCB that I can find is downstream of the Sensor Control Processor that feeds into the ON Screen Buffer (Video - Chroma & Def Signal Processor). I could certainly feed a signal into this junction with a toggle switch, however, I am not sure what sort of modifications I would need in order to get a picture. Essentially I would be connecting my video converter with component output to the RGB input on the On Screen Buffer. By the looks of it I may need to buy a small board to modify the connections with a resistor and or capacitor as shown as shown prior to "in" on the schematic (see below for additional attachments)... I attached the service manual if anyone wants to take a look and chime in (it would be much appreciated).

« Last Edit: January 09, 2020, 06:47:57 pm by Alaska »

Alaska

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Re: DVI or VGA - Best connection from PC to TV
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2020, 06:33:59 pm »
Additional PCB Diagrams.

Above comment references chip IC701 on page 1, output pins 40, 41, 42 via line #13 to IC201 shown on page 2 and detailed on page 4 input pins 23, 24 and 25