Vector only MAME cabinet

[krick]

Well, I'm still working on my first MAME cabinet and already I'm planning the second.

I always assumed that eventually I'd have 2 MAME cabinets.  One with a horizontal monitor, the other with a vertical monitor.  However, I've just realized that I need a third...

A Vector only cabinet with a real vector monitor.


I found this page that sells a product to interface a PC to a vector monitor to run all MAME vector games in their true glory...

http://www.zektor.com/zvg/index.htm


Look...Tempest on a Vectrex monitor...





Hmmm... some vector games are on a horizontal monitor.... maybe I need 2 vector only cabinets.


Curse this evil hobby.  

[Stingray]

Pardon my ignorance, because I have no idea how a real vector monitor works. Is there a way something like that can work on a color vector monitor? It would be really sweet if Tempest were in color in that picture.

-S

[Sephroth57]

i dont think i even play any vector games.... ive tried a few in MAME. but whats the difference between tempest on my 21inch VGA monitor vs that old vector lookin thing? looks the same to me

[nipsmg]

Sephroth57: Are you TRYING to start an "authenticity" debate?!

There's a definite difference, but it would only be an issue to a REAL vector game fan, probably.
Perosonally, I'm not a huge vector game fan.... (with some exceptions: star wars has a special place in my heart, etc)

[Sephroth57]

well i agree with authenticity to a point. but to go as far as degrading picture quality to look like it has 80s technology in it... i dunno thats a bit much for me.

[Brad Lee]

Vector monitors are different from regular monitors(vga, crt, lcd, etc) in that they dont scan the entire picture 60 times a second. Im not exactly sure, so some of this may need further clarification
What they do is get information from the game about whats supposed to be on the screen, and plot those points at an XY coordinate, then the next point, and so on. Lines are drawn between 2 points similarly, it plots the end points and then draws between em

2 of the most widely recognized vector games are probably Battlezone and Tempest, butthere are a bunch more(you should be able to sort on monitor type in mame32 or other FEs)

When playing a vector game thru an emulator on a RGB monitor, it draws the entire screen, and then rasterizes it(converts it to pixels) and sends it to the monitor. Often it looks either fuzzy or faint. I geuss a good analogy would be the difference between a jpg and a vector drawing in illustrator- the lines are crisp and exact, no matterwhat you do with em

[Stingray]

No matter how much you tweak the settings you can never get that true vector look on a raster monitor. If I had space and money I'd love to have a MAME system with a real vector monitor. As it is I'll just have to be happy with the one I've got.  

-S

[Sephroth57]

hmm, well in that case i guess it is technicly better to play on vector monitors. personally im not a fan of vector games, but it looks cool if youre into that kind of stuff. I know if they had some kind of special monitor for Marvel Vs Capcom 2 id have it =)

[Stingray]

Just clicked on the link. Wow! at $239 for just the card and I have no idea what a vector monitor would set you back, it would be a pretty pricy toy. The 'cool factor' would be through the roof though.

-S

[Edgedamage]

Easy to get battle zone looking good go to a art store and get green transparency like the real machine used. Also you could make the different coloured rings starcastle used. Anyway with a monitor that small you could make a compact mame machine that allows you to change the coloured overlays with ease.

[ErikRuud]

The Vextrex monitor they used is small and probably easy to use in test set up.

Here are soem the stats on what the device can do:
Drives Wells Gardner, Amplifone, Electrohome G05, Sega G08, and Vectrex X/Y Monitors.

[SirPeale]

If you've never played a real vector game there is no comparison between an emulated vector image on a raster monitor, or a real vector image: the vector is clearly superior.  If you have the opportunity to check a real one out, do so.  

Of course, if all you're interested in is beat-em-ups, this will be lost on you.

[jerryjanis]

I guess I probably grew up after the vector generation, but when I see Asteroids on a real arcade monitor I nearly lose my cool.  It looks incredible!  The vector monitor must be able to pull some crazy stunts.  The bullets that you shoot shine with an intense brightness.  Even though they're just a dot on the screen, they look like they could do some real damage when they hit their target.  It's an effect that blows me away after seeing nothing but regular monitors for my whole life.

[ErikRuud]

Here is a basic(non technical) description of how monitors work.

Raster monitors have a beam(actualy three in the case of color screens) that scans across the screen in horizotals lines from top to bottom.  The beam causes little tiny phosphor dots to glow. By varing the intensity of the beam the brightness of each dot is controlled.  So the entire image is drawn on the screen one dot at a time from top to bottom.

In a Vector monitor the beam (I'm not sure how they do color) can draw anywhere on the screen at any time.  The graphics are created by telling the monitor to draw lines from point A to point B. In some ways it is similar to drawing on an Etch-a-Sketch. Because Vector monitors don't have a grid of phosphor dots, the graphics do not have that pixelated look that raster monitors have.


The big advantage that Vector monitors had in the old days was that they could draw graphics a lot faster than raster monitors did.  For the ship in asteroids, the processor only needed to keep track of the four corners of the ship, as opposed to the 64 or more pixels that it would have required on a raster monitor.

[Brad Lee]

Yeah Asteroids on mame on a TV, behind tinted plexi.... Sigh

It is possible thru settings to up the intensity of the images, and to make thicker lines so you can see em, but by the time you get it to where you can see the shots good, the ship is too big and blocky



Also, Im sure the technology has improved, but I recall that the old atari vector monitors were very prone to failing and in some cases even being fire hazards

[fredster]

I agree with Asteroids description.  The vector monitors had tracers that made the feel of the game.  Without it, Asteroids has little dots that don't show the full blast like the original.

I have an asteroid's "kit".  I have everything execpt for the monitor and powersupply for the monitor.   I looked around for them and it's about as cheap to buy a fully assembled game than the vector monitor.

Where do you get vector monitors except on EbaY?

[ErikRuud]

I think it was Cinematronics monitors that caught on fire.

I was reading a write up by one of the Cinematronics programmers, and he said some thing about they had to make sure that the beam didn't draw off the bottom of the screen because it could cause the monitor to fail.

[Edgedamage]

It was the Electohome G08's that were fire starters. There is web sites that show how to change the transistors to stop them from becoming fire hazards. Space fury was the unlucky cab that had them and lots of them were damaged by the monitors or converted quickly by operators. Who were worried about their arcades going up in smoke. I even remember the arcade in my neighbourhood had space fury for two weeks. When the owner found out about the possible fire hazard the game was removed. There is a cool looking robotron based vector game in the xbox game PGR2. just go into the garage and walk up to the videogame cabinet and press a button and you start playing.

[NoOne=NBA=]

I remember reading something about a vectorMAME hack awhile back that used one of the laser generators like they use at the "lightshows".

They said it worked well on things like a wall in your house, but would even project onto low cloud cover to play.

I never did see pics of it in action; so I'm not sure if it was a real project, or a WIP, though.

[Frostillicus]

ah Zektor.  Read here...

Trouble with vector monitors (beyond the obvious reliability issues) is that they are few and far between.  It'd suck to hack up a classic for this, and even used color XY's go for like 500-600 'as is' on ebay.  Really not much of a market for this...unless someone decides to reissue XY monitors, which is probably never going to happen  

[JustMichael]

If you want to play vector games in Mame try setting the resolution to AT LEAST 1024x768!!!
The look MUCH better at higher resolutions (more like the real vector monitors).

[Frostillicus]

I think the glow around a point is the most attractive part of vector monitors - like an oscilliscope.  I believe there was an emulator for asteroids that...um..emulated the glow around the shots fired from the USS Triangle.  That was the coolest part, IMHO, apart from the sound, and the gameplay, and the button layout, and the cab, and the aw heck it was all awesome

[StephenH]

If you are going to use a real vector monitor, you may want to wire up a TV or a small LCD monitor for DOS and Windows config, and keep it inside if needed.  Vector monitors cannot be used for standard PC work.

[Xiaou2]

 Well... i myself have been thinking about this latly.
 
 While its true... you can get ok results from a high res pc monitor... theres really a huge difference, mostly in brightness.  If the pixils are small enough (like in asteroids bullets)... they glow so brite that its like looking at the sun!  

  There are a few ways to simulate this artistically... but still will probably come up short..

  However... there is a fairly simular technology that could probably do the same effects the same or Better than a vector monitor:

  LASERS!    ^_^


   There was a site about a project called Lasermame.  Was a modified version of mame that only played vector games using a laser as a display device.  It looked incredible.

  The cost of lasers have really come down... and even the complex controllers too.  Ive seen laser light show devices on ebay that are arround 100$ to 250$ that have a huge array of features.

  If we could convince a company to make a laser projector for us mame peoplee... i think there would be a huge demand for them.  

  Imagine playing tron in your cab... then exiting... and starting up a game of tempest.  The main monitor would go off... and the laser would pop the display right on top of the darkened monitor.   (maybe mount the laser overhead and behind the players?)

 whats great about the lasers.. is that you can project onto any surface... and scale it to almost any distance...

   

 

[Justin]

For $239, I would much rather abuy a used 21" CRT computer monitor.

Have you tried Tempest on a 21" with MAME, running at 1600x1200 resolution?  It looks freakin' incredible.

[RandyT]

Here's something that I have long suspected, but just now found verification of.

The following was taken from the Sci.Electronics Repair FAQ.

Chapter 2)  How does a Vector monitor work?

Vector monitors, also referred to by Atari and others as "XY" (ick) or "Quadrascan" (double ick) monitors, are available in black and white or color. A black and white picture tube has one electron gun that lights just one type of phosphor (usually, but not always, white). Color tubes have 3 electron guns that, when the yoke and neck magnets are aligned properly, each hit their own phosphors only, either red, green, or blue (RGB). Something called a shadow mask is used so each gun hits only one set of phosphors. There is no inherent difference between the tubes used in vector monitors and the tubes used in raster monitors; only the control circuitry differs. That is not to say that you can use any tube in any monitor; there are several different neck pinouts that have been used for picture tubes so you have to find a tube with a matching pinout first. If you have a lot of screen burn, you can replace a color vector picture tube with any compatible "off-the-shelf" 100 degree in-line picture tube that is also used in raster-scan displays.

I always thought I could see a color mask on those color vector monitors.  

So this means that while the scanning method is different on the color vector monitors, the actual picture produced by them will have a dot pattern based on the dot-pitch of the color masks.  

In other words, aside from a couple of nuances like flickering and possibly intense brightness, there should be very little difference between the image on a color vector monitor and a hi-resolution (better than 1024x768) color PC monitor.  

My calculations, based on a 19" monitor and .31 dot pitch (I doubt they were using .25 in those days), give me a horizontal resolution of about 1227 and a vertical of about 920.  So in essence, a PC display of 1280x1024 on a .25 - .27 dot pitch display would actually have a higher resolution than a color vector display.

Now what would be interesting is if someone could find a hi-res mono-vga and see what one looks like with a B&W vector game.  Anyone?

RandyT
 

[Xiaou2]

 I think thats the point.  Its the intense brightness that is most important to making the vector monitors highly desireable to any who have seen them in action.

 I hadnt seen one in a long time... but after seeing again, realized how cool the effect was - and would really like to have the same effect in my machine somehow.

 

[Frostillicus]

Yes it is well known that vector tubes are the same as raster tubes, it's just the type of and number of guns that are different (apart from the control circuitry and signal type, obviously).  A vector monitor will always look superior to raster due to the fundemental differences in producing the image: point-to-point vector vs raster horizontal scanning.  I agree games look decent on hi-res vga monitor but they don't approach vector monitor quality, IMHO.

[Tailgunner]

 Well... i myself have been thinking about this latly.
 
 While its true... you can get ok results from a high res pc monitor... theres really a huge difference, mostly in brightness.  If the pixils are small enough (like in asteroids bullets)... they glow so brite that its like looking at the sun!  

  There are a few ways to simulate this artistically... but still will probably come up short..

  However... there is a fairly simular technology that could probably do the same effects the same or Better than a vector monitor:

  LASERS!    ^_^


   There was a site about a project called Lasermame.  Was a modified version of mame that only played vector games using a laser as a display device.  It looked incredible.

  The cost of lasers have really come down... and even the complex controllers too.  Ive seen laser light show devices on ebay that are arround 100$ to 250$ that have a huge array of features.

  If we could convince a company to make a laser projector for us mame peoplee... i think there would be a huge demand for them.  

  Imagine playing tron in your cab... then exiting... and starting up a game of tempest.  The main monitor would go off... and the laser would pop the display right on top of the darkened monitor.   (maybe mount the laser overhead and behind the players?)

 whats great about the lasers.. is that you can project onto any surface... and scale it to almost any distance...

What I'd rather see would be someone building replacement vector arcade monitor chassis boards like the ones 8-Liners imports.  Or better yet, a combination vector/raster monitor chassis, since there isn't any difference in the tubes. That way you could play both vector games and raster games on the same monitor, and still have both look correct.

[RandyT]

Yes it is well known that vector tubes are the same as raster tubes, it's just the type of and number of guns that are different (apart from the control circuitry and signal type, obviously).  A vector monitor will always look superior to raster due to the fundemental differences in producing the image: point-to-point vector vs raster horizontal scanning.  I agree games look decent on hi-res vga monitor but they don't approach vector monitor quality, IMHO.

The type and number of guns are identical.  There is still a "grid" pattern on a color vector display due to the shadow mask.  Only the circuitry that controls them differs in that instead of scanning left to right, top to bottom, it paints the image like a laser light show would.  The flickering is due to slow refresh rate and the "trails" are due to the long persistance phosphor, which is used to help tone down the flickering.

Granted, the image on some color vector monitors may be brighter.  I can't say for sure because aside from my trusty B&W Vectrex here, I haven't seen a true vector monitor in quite a while.  But I honestly don't recall them being that much brighter.  In fact, some of the machines were downright dim, but they could have been turned down or failing.  One would think that the brightness would be decreased due to the slow refresh rate and flickering.  Sure, you can crank them up, but they aren't very pretty that way (usually they start showing the connecting traces when you do that).  They are also more prone to burn in because the electron beam doesn't paint the surface evenly.  So there's another reason not to keep them cranked up super bright.  

One thing that is markedly different is contrast.  On a raster monitor, the eb gun is scanning the entire surface of the screen, even the "black" areas.  This causes the phosphor in those areas to glow slightly (very dark gray).  On a vector monitor, the phospor in the unused areas is, for the most part, dead.  So there is a level of contrast that is virtually unachievable by any other display technology (other than lasers at midnight with no moon).

But I guess my point really was....if you use a grid that is 1280x1024 (PC resolution) and one that is 1227x920 (color vector resolution) and then draw a thin point to point line on each of them, you would likely find very little discernable difference in the sharpness of the image.  Factor in less than perfect convergence and focus, and I'd expect it to be moreso.

Someone with a real Star Wars machine needs to do a "side-by-side" comparison.

RandyT

[JustMichael]

Personally I like playing most vector games with these options: -nohws -resolution 1280x1024 -intensity 3 -beam 2.

[paigeoliver]

I have seen MOST vectors in action (color and black&white), and it how correct, or good they look on a PC monitor really depends on the game.

Asteroids (and Deluxe, and most B&W vectors). Forget it, you THINK it looks good until you see a real one.

Tempest (most color vectors). PC can actually display this one fairly good. Not quite as bright though, and it is a bit TOO perfect, since every Tempest I have ever played has seemed to have had minor geometry issues.

Lunar Lander. I think this one looks better on PC. Played my first original one saturday, and I don't recall it pulling off any ultra-brightness tricks or anything, but it does flicker noticeably.

Also, one REAL issue for anyone wanting to do a vector Mame, is the fact that not all vector monitors are fast enough to display all games, and the fact that a B&W vector game will not look right on a color vector monitor (actually, B&W games NEVER look right on color monitors, raster or vector). Then there are also the overlays to think about, Lunar Lander, Battlezone, Asteroids Deluxe, Armor Attack, Star Castle, Warrior, and (I think) Demon all used overlays or backdrops that varied from simply decorative (Asteroids Deluxe, Star Castles), to being involved with game information (Battlezone, and the bezel on Lunar Lander), to being downright REQUIRED to properly play the game (Armor Attack, Warrior).

[JustMichael]

Mame can also simulate a vector monitor being not quick enough to draw the whole game by using the -flicker xx option where xx is from 0 to 100.
I do think some things on a vector monitor just aren't going to be matched properly by a pc monitor (like the super bright asteroid shots).

[Xiaou2]

actually,

 i was just over at a friends playing his starwars machine.. and found this interesting...  the red,blue, and other colors were mostly dim- but clear... however... the white/color cycling enemy shots were brite as hell.  also the light blue beams you fire are also quite brite.  

  seems that even the color vectors are much brighter than pc or tv displays.

[paigeoliver]

Oh yes, the color vectors are brighter than normal, but how different it is depends on the game (and how bright you have the vector monitor turned up, the last Star Wars machine I played was actually fairly dim, and technically it was an Empire Strikes Back machine, but that is basically the same game).

[Minwah]

I've only ever had the pleasure of playing 2 vector machines - Asteroids & Tempest.  I was gobsmacked by the awesome bright shots from the ship - as everyone else has said, there is no way this can be matched on a raster screen.

I agree at high res (on a raster screen) the vector games looked pretty darn good, but if you're really into vector games it's just not good enough IMO.

[ErikRuud]

I just spent two days in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin.

We walked into the Gameland Arcade there.  I wanted to show my daughter how the games used to be played.

They had what appeared to be an original Asteroids.  The shots were even more intense than I remebered!