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Author Topic: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick  (Read 759 times)

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OTT

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"Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« on: April 24, 2019, 09:28:22 am »
I'm going to buy a Zippyy joystick for an arcade stick and I'd like to "set it up" so that it perform as close as possible to my ideal. One of the aspects I would like to make changes about is the microswitches and I really need some advice here! At the moment, I considered mainly two options from Cherry

A) D44X: https://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/d44x-cherry-button-microswitch-with-4-8mm-terminals.html

I'm not sure it is compatible with the Zippyy, though, since it is intended mainly for buttons...although I know that many people implemented it successfully in other joysticks. Also, my doubt for this model is that the actuation force is too light for my taste and could give a sloppy feeling (read my notes, below).

B) D44Y: https://www.arcadeworlduk.com/products/d44y-cherry-joystick-microswitch-with-4-8mm-terminals.html

This is intended for joystick and theoretically it should be fine with the Zippyy. The actuation force is higher than D44X but I did not find opinions or feedback about the feeling nor the type of click produced.

I'd really appreciate if someone could enlighten me about the difference about the feeling and click between these two models (and compatibility with Zippyy joystick, of course!).

A part from the Cherry models I'm evaluating, there are probably other good options available for my needs: if someone has a brand/model to suggest after reading my notes (below) I thank him.


Some notes that can be useful in order to give me the "right" advice:

1)I don't want a totally silent joystick, since I like to get a feedback while operating it

2)While I like a feedback from the joystick, don't want it to be an unpleasant or loud sound: a nice, soft and "round" click would be perfect

3)I know that there are many factors involved but, as far as microswitches are concerned, I'd like a joystick which is precise and responsive but at the same time give the right feeling, not too stiff nor too sloppy

4) I'm not particularly interested in playing fighting games, rather this stick will be used mainly for playing old home computers games (C64, Amiga, etc.) and old arcade. It will be used in 8-way mode only. For reference, a game in which I'd like the joystick to perform well is Kick Off (Anco 1989)

5) In addition to the microswitches, if someone can provide advice for improvement in the direction I described above, like a better spring (compared to stock), a particular restrictor to purchase separately or a custom mod, please do not hesitate!

I welcome any suggestion, thanks.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 09:31:27 am by OTT »

Mike A

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2019, 09:33:14 am »
Instead of spending money modding a terrible joystick, why don't you just get a good quality stick to begin with?

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2019, 09:44:37 am »
Instead of spending money modding a terrible joystick, why don't you just get a good quality stick to begin with?

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2019, 01:40:01 pm »
Instead of spending money modding a terrible joystick, why don't you just get a good quality stick to begin with?


Well, to begin with I see that you haven't answered any of my questions.


Then, what is a "good quality" stick?

Zippyy is a budget joystick, that's for sure, but I thought to purchase it for a reason:

1) it is basically a clone of Seimitsu LS-32
2) I need an "all round" joystick that is suitable for various game types, included shoot'em up, and the LS-32 is widely recognized as good for the job... indeed for years it has been considered the best choice for this purpose
3) I hate short shafts: Zippyy is an LS-32 with longer shaft, moreover while the original LS-32 has many plastic and cheap parts the "poor clone" Zippyy has more sturdy/metallic parts

For the reasons above and as far as I know, Zippyy may be a cheap joystick but sports the features I'm looking for and is actually better than the original LS-32 in few area.

Of course is not that I don't know about alternatives, rather I looked literally at every joystick on the market, BUT:

1) Sanwa joysticks, particularly JLF, although "high quality" are best suited for fighting games about which I can't care less. Also, I hate long throw as well the sloppy feeling. JLW are discontinued and anyway not so good for various reasons.

2) I looked at Seimitsu too, but LS-40 has a very short shaft and generally I don't like it very much (I have the original Neo Geo, imported from Japan in 1990, so I know very well what I'm talking about). LS-56 has many fans and maybe is not so bad for my purpose but still I found a few cons. Other models are simply no good for my purpose.

3) I looked at Ultimarc wide range of "XYZ stick": U360, Mag-Stick, Mag-Stick Plus, E-Stick, Eurostick, ServoStick, etc.  The U360 has very nice features but also many cons (that I am not going to mention here: at the very least I think you should agree that it is not the right choice as a primary 8-way). E-Stick and EuroStick are not for me. I was very interested in the Mag-Stick, particularly the Plus version with the nice feature to switch from 8 to 4 way and viceversa "on the fly". Also, I liked very much the idea of magnetic centering. But then I read many negative opinions (a number of which here on this forum) and problems with the (very) short throw and some other annoying issue: I got the feeling that the joystick has potential but as it is now is more an hassle than a jolly. The ServoStick seems like a Holy Grail but even for this joystick I read about problems with this and that, not to mention the hassle to set it up.

4) to be honest, the joystick which convinced me more as far as I could document myself is the GGG Dominux8. Very high quality, I read lot of positive comments in general and it should be very good for my purpose. Also it comes with grommet and true leaf switches that are a plus to me. So, what is the problem? That it is not distributed in Europe. Sure, I could import it, but the joystick ins't cheap and shipping costs must be added as well as customs duties. Since for now my goal is just to build a simple arcade stick, it doesn't seem worthwhile. I will consider for sure this option in the future, for a "serious" arcade panel.


So, what is your suggestion?  Of course the "quality joystick" that you will recommend me should satisfy all the aforementioned features I'm looking for, that I can summarize here:

1) should be suited for all type of games, a "general purpose" joystick. Fighting games are expendable.

2) has a long shaft (at least 4+cm from the base)

3) has good and fast centering, no wobble, no random actuation of opposite direction

4) has short to medium throw

5) should be able to hit precisely the direction (diagonals included)

6) has a good feeling, not too stiff nor too sloppy

7) has a nice "sound" to it, in case it use microswitches. Well, of course this could be improved easily  ;D

8 ) if it is also good quality (materials, build, etc.) even better

9) the price is not a problem, if the joystick check all the boxes


I'm looking forward to your advice  ;)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 01:49:17 pm by OTT »

Mike A

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2019, 01:43:29 pm »
You already know everything. I can't help you.

OTT

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2019, 01:45:26 pm »
Good, now I know that you like to waste your and my time.

Have a nice day.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2019, 01:52:24 pm »
Switches are like a dollar.  Buy a set of each and see which ones you like best.  I'm not even that cheap and that's saying something. 

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2019, 04:00:59 pm »
Good, now I know that you like to waste your and my time.
Your time, yes. I'm sure his role-playing was "mission accomplished" for him.
No Quarter - a basic FE, WIP

OTT

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2019, 04:09:58 pm »
Well, I'm happy to see that there are people that have fun with so little  :applaud:

Mike A

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2019, 04:30:35 pm »
My question was legitimate. Zippy sticks are garbage. You are better off starting with a known good stick and modding it to your exacting tastes.

After you said you looked at every stick on the market and rejected them what was I supposed to recommend?

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2019, 07:26:56 am »
Well, I'm happy to see that there are people that have fun with so little  :applaud:
This place seems to be the only time in Mike's life where he has any weight to throw around. He makes the most of it.
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Mike A

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2019, 07:34:25 am »
How do you know anything about my life outside this forum? Are you stalking me there too?

I am flattered by your constant attention, but I am not interested Drake.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2019, 07:49:09 am »
As far as the OP goes...

I would have recommended a leaf switch stick. You can adjust its behavior easily by bending the tabs. Wicos are always my favorite for all around 8 way use. I don't play fighting games either. I suck at them.

I know you want a microswitch stick so I can't really help you there. The clicking annoys me. I don't think you are really getting useful feedback from the clicking noise.

You can buy refurbished Wicos or arcadeshop.com sells repro wicos. I haven't tried the repros but people at KLOV.com have.

I would have been more helpful earlier, but the obvious contempt in your response turned me off.


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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2019, 04:51:59 am »
Try the GGG microleaf.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2019, 05:13:05 am »
Ok, thanks!

Mike A

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2019, 07:33:47 am »
So I guess the OP owes me an apology. It looks like you are abandoning the Zippy for a quality stick. It also looks like you are going with leaf switches.

It looks like you are on the right track now. I hope you find the right stick for your needs.


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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2019, 02:41:06 pm »
I have one Zippy in service right now.  I wanted it because it was low-profile and dirt cheap.  I built a small Raspberry Pi arcade setup inside my pop-up trailer, so top-notch quality and the associated expense did not seem to fit the parameters of that particular project. 

IMO, the Zippy is a serviceable choice for this application, but it definitely feels very cheap.  To draw an analogy, it's like when your kid wants a guitar and you buy a pink Hanna Montana model at Walmart for $30.  Sure, you can bring it to the campfire and strum the chords to American Pie with it, but no amount of tweaking is going to make that guitar a good instrument, because it's just a toy. 

I've spent some rainy nights at the campground playing games for hours, though.  The joystick works, and I've had fun with it.  It's just not very good; I'm certainly not going to rack up any personal best scores using a Zippy. 

Have you considered Happ Competition?  I think they tick most of your boxes and don't cost very much.  I've used them for years and I think they're a great bang for your buck.  I also have Dominux 8s which are obviously next-level compared to the Happs, but I can still totally enjoy most 8-way games using the Comps.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2019, 03:43:54 pm »
I have one Zippy in service right now.  I wanted it because it was low-profile and dirt cheap.  I built a small Raspberry Pi arcade setup inside my pop-up trailer, so top-notch quality and the associated expense did not seem to fit the parameters of that particular project. 

IMO, the Zippy is a serviceable choice for this application, but it definitely feels very cheap.  To draw an analogy, it's like when your kid wants a guitar and you buy a pink Hanna Montana model at Walmart for $30.  Sure, you can bring it to the campfire and strum the chords to American Pie with it, but no amount of tweaking is going to make that guitar a good instrument, because it's just a toy. 

I've spent some rainy nights at the campground playing games for hours, though.  The joystick works, and I've had fun with it.  It's just not very good; I'm certainly not going to rack up any personal best scores using a Zippy. 

Have you considered Happ Competition?  I think they tick most of your boxes and don't cost very much.  I've used them for years and I think they're a great bang for your buck.  I also have Dominux 8s which are obviously next-level compared to the Happs, but I can still totally enjoy most 8-way games using the Comps.


Thank you for you for sharing your experience with Zippyy! Yeah, you conveyed the feeling perfectly...

I'm now considering other options, particularly the Dominux8: as I wrote before (above, somewhere...), is not that I didn't though about it myself because already some time ago I came to the conclusion that Dominux8 should be probably the best choice for me, since it sports many features I like (leaf switches, grommet, build quality). What restrained me to buy it was having to pay an international shipment - plus import duties and taxes - on top of a not exactly cheap price of the product itself.  But since the alternatives does not appeal me very much and many of them have issues that require modding and waste of time to be addressed, after some thought I pretty much decided to give the Dominux8 a try. About Happ joysticks, as far as I know have too much travel and other aspects that I don't like very much, included the fact that I don't like battops.

I really thank you for your honest opinion, which spurs me even more to try Dominux8  ;)


P.S: this is not for you but addressed to those who continue to make sterile polemics about nothing: apart from out of topic digressions and talk I did not get a single answer to my questions in op,yet...
      And this my last reply to them.

Mike A

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2019, 04:02:18 pm »
As far as the OP goes...

I would have recommended a leaf switch stick. You can adjust its behavior easily by bending the tabs. Wicos are always my favorite for all around 8 way use. I don't play fighting games either. I suck at them.

I know you want a microswitch stick so I can't really help you there. The clicking annoys me. I don't think you are really getting useful feedback from the clicking noise.

You can buy refurbished Wicos or arcadeshop.com sells repro wicos. I haven't tried the repros but people at KLOV.com have.

I would have been more helpful earlier, but the obvious contempt in your response turned me off.


That looks like pretty solid advice. It just so happens that now that is the direction you are leaning. Stop being a giant dick.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2019, 04:44:36 pm »
Unfortunately (as I'm finding), a lot of choices are very subjective and the only way to tell for sure is through experimentation. It's too bad there wasn't a brick and mortar store to try out all the devices beforehand, but that's just the way it is.

I've bought a number of buttons, switches, joys to test. I liked the idea of the restrictor on the bottom of the Zippy, and it's one of the reasons I bought it. Height is about right for a 3/4" mdf control panel. But performance wise, it doesn't seem to be a great joy. I find it not too accurate in general. Granted, it's a cheap joy.

The stick I'm leaning towards for my cabinet are the U360s. Though I might try a ServoStik before finalizing this one.

In general, I'm starting to find the clicky switch noises to be more annoying this time around than when I first built a machine. Maybe that will go away as I get more into playing and away from the building.

I was curious about your dislike of bat tops. I was never crazy about ball tops myself. I always think of Pac Man, when I think of a ball top. Though that wasn't the first game I played with a ball top. It seems like the bat top is slightly more comfortable, with a better grip, and perhaps slightly more accurate. Then again, maybe some people feel the ball tops are more precise. At any rate, it has been yet another question I've run across in researching/testing for a new cabinet. Once again, I've bought both types to test out. The ball tops seem to have more variety in style/colors, so I might just go that route. Luckily, some joys allow you to switch out the tops. Happs take note!

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2019, 04:59:28 pm »

The stick I'm leaning towards for my cabinet are the U360s. Though I might try a ServoStik before finalizing this one.


The U360 is a nice "all around" joystick.  It is okay for most everything and not really great at anything.  It is what I have on my main mame machine and I do like the versatility of being able to play almost any game.  I find it very unsatisfying for 4-way games and am working on a dedicated horizontal machine with a 4-way wico to scratch that itch.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2019, 06:19:25 pm »

The stick I'm leaning towards for my cabinet are the U360s. Though I might try a ServoStik before finalizing this one.


The U360 is a nice "all around" joystick.  It is okay for most everything and not really great at anything.  It is what I have on my main mame machine and I do like the versatility of being able to play almost any game.  I find it very unsatisfying for 4-way games and am working on a dedicated horizontal machine with a 4-way wico to scratch that itch.

Yea, my aim (not OP) is for more of an all around joy for now. Depending on time/spaca/money/family approval, a more dedicated bartop or cocktail may follow. The nice thing is with the various buying/testing, I'm building up an inventory of parts that could be repurposed for that dream second machine! ;)

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2019, 09:04:45 pm »
Zippy is okay.  Now that Iíve owned some Sanwas I really like them.  Iím not 50 so I didnít grow up with leaf switch joysticks.

This forum needs more threads about Arcade 1Up cabinets.

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2019, 09:16:55 am »
Thank you for you for sharing your experience with Zippyy! Yeah, you conveyed the feeling perfectly...

I'm now considering other options, particularly the Dominux8: as I wrote before (above, somewhere...), is not that I didn't though about it myself because already some time ago I came to the conclusion that Dominux8 should be probably the best choice for me, since it sports many features I like (leaf switches, grommet, build quality). What restrained me to buy it was having to pay an international shipment - plus import duties and taxes - on top of a not exactly cheap price of the product itself.  But since the alternatives does not appeal me very much and many of them have issues that require modding and waste of time to be addressed, after some thought I pretty much decided to give the Dominux8 a try. About Happ joysticks, as far as I know have too much travel and other aspects that I don't like very much, included the fact that I don't like battops.

I really thank you for your honest opinion, which spurs me even more to try Dominux8  ;)

You won't be disappointed with the D8.  I've got a pair of them, and I also used one to build a controller for my brother.  Great feel, great quality, great adjustability.  But yeah, not cheap, and if you're not living in the US, it gets even more expensive.  Even shipping them to Canada came with a significant surcharge.  I used to ship them to a US address and pick them up but now the GGG website won't let me do this for some reason, which is a shame because I like their products. 

Regarding the travel of the Happ Competition, you should know that the travel of the D8 is just as large, if not larger.  I haven't measured, but as a regular user of both, that is my anecdotal impression.  Of course, on the D8 you can adjust the engagement distance so that the switches engage long before you reach the end of the travel. 

And as for bat tops, I'm not a fan of them either.  Not sure why.  I used them for 4-5 years straight and the second I switched to ball top I instantly liked it better.  In fact, I like ball top so much that I converted my Happ Comps and 4-way Happ Super to ball top.  They look and play great, IMO. 



OTT

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2019, 09:38:38 am »
Unfortunately (as I'm finding), a lot of choices are very subjective and the only way to tell for sure is through experimentation. It's too bad there wasn't a brick and mortar store to try out all the devices beforehand, but that's just the way it is.

I've bought a number of buttons, switches, joys to test. I liked the idea of the restrictor on the bottom of the Zippy, and it's one of the reasons I bought it. Height is about right for a 3/4" mdf control panel. But performance wise, it doesn't seem to be a great joy. I find it not too accurate in general. Granted, it's a cheap joy.

The stick I'm leaning towards for my cabinet are the U360s. Though I might try a ServoStik before finalizing this one.

In general, I'm starting to find the clicky switch noises to be more annoying this time around than when I first built a machine. Maybe that will go away as I get more into playing and away from the building.

I was curious about your dislike of bat tops. I was never crazy about ball tops myself. I always think of Pac Man, when I think of a ball top. Though that wasn't the first game I played with a ball top. It seems like the bat top is slightly more comfortable, with a better grip, and perhaps slightly more accurate. Then again, maybe some people feel the ball tops are more precise. At any rate, it has been yet another question I've run across in researching/testing for a new cabinet. Once again, I've bought both types to test out. The ball tops seem to have more variety in style/colors, so I might just go that route. Luckily, some joys allow you to switch out the tops. Happs take note!

Thank you for the feedback on Zippyy. Well, at this point I'm pretty much sold to Dominux8, anyway.

About balltop vs battop: I think that this is one of those aspect so highly subjective that you can't come up with a totally logical or scientific reason to justify a choice over the other. Perhaps for me it is that I grew up with balltop joystick, both playing at arcade bar and at home. Also, I like the balltop shape much more...it simply feels like THE arcade control to me. Of course there are some more practical aspects to be considered, like comfort or style of play: personally, I find myself more at ease with balltop but probably due to the fact that I'm so used to play with it. There are endless discussion about this topic, so I don't want to indulge any further on the subject  ;)

OTT

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2019, 10:06:14 am »
Thank you for you for sharing your experience with Zippyy! Yeah, you conveyed the feeling perfectly...

I'm now considering other options, particularly the Dominux8: as I wrote before (above, somewhere...), is not that I didn't though about it myself because already some time ago I came to the conclusion that Dominux8 should be probably the best choice for me, since it sports many features I like (leaf switches, grommet, build quality). What restrained me to buy it was having to pay an international shipment - plus import duties and taxes - on top of a not exactly cheap price of the product itself.  But since the alternatives does not appeal me very much and many of them have issues that require modding and waste of time to be addressed, after some thought I pretty much decided to give the Dominux8 a try. About Happ joysticks, as far as I know have too much travel and other aspects that I don't like very much, included the fact that I don't like battops.

I really thank you for your honest opinion, which spurs me even more to try Dominux8  ;)

You won't be disappointed with the D8.  I've got a pair of them, and I also used one to build a controller for my brother.  Great feel, great quality, great adjustability.

Yeah, and that's exactly what I'm looking for!

But yeah, not cheap, and if you're not living in the US, it gets even more expensive.  Even shipping them to Canada came with a significant surcharge.  I used to ship them to a US address and pick them up but now the GGG website won't let me do this for some reason, which is a shame because I like their products. 

I'm aware, and that's the main reason for which I put Dominux8 out of my list of options till now. Another reason was that this project of mine is something like a test, since I have in mind a much more serious and demanding project and therefore my idea was to stay on the "not too expensive" side for now, keeping resources (=money) for the biggest goal.  But ok, since a truly enjoyable experience is a plus and I came to the conclusion that other joysticks are not well suited for my needs (at least without investing time and more money on modding) I changed my mind and now I'm willing to spend more than budgeted and to try this Dominux8.

Regarding the travel of the Happ Competition, you should know that the travel of the D8 is just as large, if not larger.  I haven't measured, but as a regular user of both, that is my anecdotal impression.  Of course, on the D8 you can adjust the engagement distance so that the switches engage long before you reach the end of the travel. 

Yes, of course the long shaft config without restrictor has a long travel. But the ability to fine tune the engage, as you pointed out, solve the problem. Moreover I have the two options to bottom mount the joystick with long shaft and add a circular restrictor or top mount the short shaft without the restrictor, in both cases improving (limiting) the travel. Actually, the choice between these two options is what keep me think and I'm trying to figure out the best solution, asking courteous, helpful and experienced people like Jimbo and yourself.

And as for bat tops, I'm not a fan of them either.  Not sure why.  I used them for 4-5 years straight and the second I switched to ball top I instantly liked it better.  In fact, I like ball top so much that I converted my Happ Comps and 4-way Happ Super to ball top.  They look and play great, IMO.

Nothing to add here! I replied to gingecko (above) explaining why for me balltop is better than battop...

gingecko

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2019, 11:02:40 am »
Thank you for the feedback on Zippyy. Well, at this point I'm pretty much sold to Dominux8, anyway.

About balltop vs battop: I think that this is one of those aspect so highly subjective that you can't come up with a totally logical or scientific reason to justify a choice over the other. Perhaps for me it is that I grew up with balltop joystick, both playing at arcade bar and at home. Also, I like the balltop shape much more...it simply feels like THE arcade control to me. Of course there are some more practical aspects to be considered, like comfort or style of play: personally, I find myself more at ease with balltop but probably due to the fact that I'm so used to play with it. There are endless discussion about this topic, so I don't want to indulge any further on the subject  ;)

Yep, it certainly sounds like you found the joy for you. The D8 sounds pretty unique, so I doubt you would be able to customize or find anything with a similar feel (outside of some original Robotron sticks).

Thanks for the info on your preference for ball tops. I'm certainly not going to debate personal preferences. I guess I grew up on ball tops too (Defender, Galaga, Pac Man, Joust, etc.). Though I might have spent more actual time playing Atari 2600, which is somewhat similar to a bat top. Not really sure at which point I starting liking one over the other. Will see what ends up in my cab though. I'm leaning towards the look of the ball tops, and if they feel just fine for most games, probably the route I will go.

Mr. Peabody

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Re: "Right" microswitches for Zippyy joystick
« Reply #27 on: May 02, 2019, 05:58:08 pm »
Things are not subjective. How a person feels about a product, and how ham-fisted they are, ARE personal.

I have bats and balls (say that ten times FAST!). I like them both. Shaft height (it gets better, doesn't it?) can factor, but I have adapted to variances. Competitions are super high/long, higher than I care for. And diagonals suck, so there's that. U360 is about map and playing style. Some of my best 4-way and 8-way scores are with a U360.

Perhaps this and the other thread should be merged.....no that would be....ugly. Perhaps stick to one of them.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 06:03:03 pm by Mr. Peabody »