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Author Topic: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"  (Read 1000 times)

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Neilalphazeta

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How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« on: January 23, 2019, 03:51:48 pm »
Or even better, how can I adjust the horizontal overscan in games? I've been tweaking the Arcade OSD and find while the centering seems to affect Mame games (I connected it to mame in the VMMaker as per instructions in Calamity's guide) but the actual horizontal porches set to undo horizontal overscan don't seem to be working. I luckily didn't need to do much vertical overscan since somehow all games run with near perfect vertical image (probably because I changed to ntsc_preset 15khz) but all games are stretched out horizontally and I can't seem to make a dent to this.

If this is not changed in arcade OSD is it done in text files? I read on how to create individual files for individual games but this seems like an endless task so instead is it possible to do one per system if it's not possible to just apply the changes in arcade osd to groovymame?
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:56:26 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2019, 04:10:07 pm »
It is possible per system. Just add custom modeline into source ini for example in [main mame directory\ini\source\cps1.ini

It is possible to set very good postion and size horizontal using super resolutions, even vertical position.

Neilalphazeta

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 04:21:55 pm »
Thank you. Is there anyway to set the geometry within Arcade OSD to save for the games? It's hard to know what to type in without seeing a visual result I find.

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 04:33:35 pm »
Or even better, how can I adjust the horizontal overscan in games? I've been tweaking the Arcade OSD and find while the centering seems to affect Mame games (I connected it to mame in the VMMaker as per instructions in Calamity's guide) but the actual horizontal porches set to undo horizontal overscan don't seem to be working. I luckily didn't need to do much vertical overscan since somehow all games run with near perfect vertical image (probably because I changed to ntsc_preset 15khz) but all games are stretched out horizontally and I can't seem to make a dent to this.

If this is not changed in arcade OSD is it done in text files? I read on how to create individual files for individual games but this seems like an endless task so instead is it possible to do one per system if it's not possible to just apply the changes in arcade osd to groovymame?

Porch values set in VMMaker do apply to GM as long as you export settings as I explained. It works. You don't need to adjust geometry per game. You can, but you don't need to. What's probably happened is since you reverted to the ntsc preset (which you didn't have to) you have changed the preset in mame ini to "ntsc" too. You don't want to do that. In mame.ini it has to be "custom" otherwise the custom crt_range with the modified porches is not read.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Neilalphazeta

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 05:38:00 pm »
Porch values set in VMMaker do apply to GM as long as you export settings as I explained. It works. You don't need to adjust geometry per game. You can, but you don't need to. What's probably happened is since you reverted to the ntsc preset (which you didn't have to) you have changed the preset in mame ini to "ntsc" too. You don't want to do that. In mame.ini it has to be "custom" otherwise the custom crt_range with the modified porches is not read.

I checked in the mame.ini and it says  monitor    custom
But it appears to have picked up the numericals of the ntsc preset since I had changed to it.

So lets say for example I try Alien VS Predator. The game has 99% of the vertical information but horizontally it's missing a lot of information. I can't see selected character faces or the number of credits inserted. So I check the info to see what resolution is used. It says 2560x240   so I exit, go to Arcade OSD, select that resolution and alter the porches front and back horizontally so that there is no information off screen. I save the changes, exit, go back to Groovymame, and Alien VS Predator starts up the exact same way as before as if nothing had been changed.

I checked in VMMaker and the setting to export to Groovymame is still there with the proper path selected as well.

Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.  :'(
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 05:39:45 pm by Neilalphazeta »

Arroyo

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2019, 06:38:49 pm »
Porch values set in VMMaker do apply to GM as long as you export settings as I explained. It works. You don't need to adjust geometry per game. You can, but you don't need to. What's probably happened is since you reverted to the ntsc preset (which you didn't have to) you have changed the preset in mame ini to "ntsc" too. You don't want to do that. In mame.ini it has to be "custom" otherwise the custom crt_range with the modified porches is not read.

I checked in the mame.ini and it says  monitor    custom
But it appears to have picked up the numericals of the ntsc preset since I had changed to it.

So lets say for example I try Alien VS Predator. The game has 99% of the vertical information but horizontally it's missing a lot of information. I can't see selected character faces or the number of credits inserted. So I check the info to see what resolution is used. It says 2560x240   so I exit, go to Arcade OSD, select that resolution and alter the porches front and back horizontally so that there is no information off screen. I save the changes, exit, go back to Groovymame, and Alien VS Predator starts up the exact same way as before as if nothing had been changed.

I checked in VMMaker and the setting to export to Groovymame is still there with the proper path selected as well.

Not sure what I'm doing wrong here.  :'(

I got stuck on this many times as well.  You CANNOT take the edits you make in ArcadeOSD and "save" them to have any effect when you launch a game.  Instead write down the value of the porch changes you make to get it to fit correctly (the micro seconds, not the channel, for example not 5ch, but instead 2.999μs, which is 2.999 micro seconds).  Go into your mame.ini.  Locate the line below:

crt_range0  15734.26-15734.26, 59.94-59.94, 1.500, 4.700, 4.700, 0.191, 0.191, 0.953, 0, 0, 192, 240, 448, 480

The above bolded numbers are: HFrontPorch, HBackPorch respectively. 

Change those to the numbers you wrote down from your changes in ArcadeOSD.  Now when you launch a game you should see the difference.

Neilalphazeta

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2019, 07:20:32 pm »
Thank you for that explanation! I tried that, edited the front porch and back porch values for the horizontal in mame.ini, saved, tested, and unfortunately nothing had changed. I also tried putting it into the edit of VMMaker and the mame.ini but can't get the changes to register it seems like. Do I need to Generate Modes and Install Modes again when making these changes?

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2019, 08:29:32 pm »
Thank you for that explanation! I tried that, edited the front porch and back porch values for the horizontal in mame.ini, saved, tested, and unfortunately nothing had changed. I also tried putting it into the edit of VMMaker and the mame.ini but can't get the changes to register it seems like. Do I need to Generate Modes and Install Modes again when making these changes?

Iíll lean on Calamity or someone with more knowledge but itís possible the NTSC preset with its fixed horizontal range:

crt_range0  15734.26-15734.26, 59.94-59.94, 1.500, 4.700, 4.700, 0.191, 0.191, 0.953, 0, 0, 192, 240, 448, 480

has a wider active video area then the monitor can display, therefore shifting it wonít allow your changes to the porches to take place.  When changing the porch values you will be increasing or decreasing that horizontal range, you have to add up all of the microseconds (ArcadeOSD does this for you) and divide 1 by those microseconds and you will have the kHz.

In other words editing the porches probably wonít have an effect if your horizontal range is fixed.  Try using Arcade15 instead and Iím sure your changes will take effect as that worked for me when playing around.

Neilalphazeta

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2019, 02:10:19 am »
Thanks. Yes I tried Calamity's values to bring the arcade preset closer to the ntsc preset and it helped a lot in regards to the video anomalies, but I still can't get the horizontal overscan to correct itself.

Here are the steps I did, please let me know if I'm doing something wrong or missing a step:

I open VMMaker
I select Arcade 15khz standard
I click edit to make those changes to the frequencies to bring them closer to ntsc
I click ok (all the other settings are already done, extend is off, super res is selected, tied to mame etc)
I open Arcade OSD
calibrate the horizontal overscan and centered the vertical (then I scribble down the values for front and back respectively)
I open the mame.ini and inserted those values in (starting with just the horizontal ones to see if they would work)
I open a game, such as Alien VS Predator, and I still can't see the number of credits and most of the characters face is off screen still.

I'm attaching my mame.ini in a zip just in case something's wrong there.
I'm also not sure what the advantage of the arcade preset is over ntsc when I'm bringing the values so close to each other anyway.

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2019, 03:48:39 am »
Your mame.ini looks fine, though I don't have a clue if the values in there were the correct ones taken from Arcade OSD, I take your word for it.

What you can trust on is that if the values work in Arcade OSD, they'll work in GroovyMAME just the same, it's not black magic, it's math. There may be another factor going on, maybe your TV is sensitive to Hfreq too, so narrowing the ranges a bit may help (basically what you did by using ntsc as a starting point, which I initially disliked because it was too limiting imo, but anyway it's there just for cases of very strict TVs, which I wouldn't have expected a Sony one would be).

Anyway, you don't need to write down the values, there's this nice option in Arcade OSD "copy modeline to clipboard" that does the job. From there, you'll see a custom crt_range, from which you can pick specifically the horizontal values, etc.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Arroyo

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2019, 08:13:29 am »
Thanks. Yes I tried Calamity's values to bring the arcade preset closer to the ntsc preset and it helped a lot in regards to the video anomalies, but I still can't get the horizontal overscan to correct itself.

Here are the steps I did, please let me know if I'm doing something wrong or missing a step:

I open VMMaker
I select Arcade 15khz standard
I click edit to make those changes to the frequencies to bring them closer to ntsc

Whenever I tried editing the values in the monitor preset I could never generate any modelines, Iím sure I was doing something wrong, but in the first tab in VMM thereís a graphical display showing timings, if by making the edits it shows no timing values then I wasnít able to generate any modelines, therefore GroovyMame would only select my desktop resolution.

Hereís what worked for me on the display I was using.  Just select Arcade 15, donít edit the values and then generate the modelines and install.  Once done edit your GroovyMame mame.ini horizontal Front Porch to 2.999 (or check in Arcade OSD to see if that works).  Now try launching a game.

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2019, 08:19:07 am »
Whenever I tried editing the values in the monitor preset I could never generate any modelines, Iím sure I was doing something wrong, but in the first tab in VMM thereís a graphical display showing timings, if by making the edits it shows no timing values then I wasnít able to generate any modelines, therefore GroovyMame would only select my desktop resolution.

I should hire some of you guys here to find ways to exploit my poor little programs.

Now seriously, that probably means your crt_range was not correctly built. There are some sanity checks performed that when failed provide no error message, my fault.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 08:21:10 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Arroyo

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2019, 08:27:31 am »
Whenever I tried editing the values in the monitor preset I could never generate any modelines, Iím sure I was doing something wrong, but in the first tab in VMM thereís a graphical display showing timings, if by making the edits it shows no timing values then I wasnít able to generate any modelines, therefore GroovyMame would only select my desktop resolution.

I should hire some of you guys here to find ways to exploit my poor little programs.

Hehe, naw man, you are our hero!  We just donít know enough yet to make good use of your hard work.  Sometimes I feel like my efforts in understanding all this is like this:



Itíll click one day, LOL

Neilalphazeta

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2019, 02:41:00 pm »
Thanks a bunch to both of you. I really appreciate the support. After reading your confirmation that the steps and the ini were correct I found the will to go over each step slowly including the numbers one by one and after doing so again it worked! I feel like the village idiot but it's possible I got the numbers in the wrong column or something making it not function. :laugh:

So I spent hours testing and tweaking. Especially trying to get arcade preset to run well. I could get the geometry perfect and make tweaks to everything but not restricting the 58.00-61.00 khz in the ini, when I input that or other numbers such as 58.50-60.00 it just gives me messages upon opening mame that it isn't able to run certain resolutions. It's just as Arroyo said, if you tweak it within VMMaker it also shows the graph being at 0. So from the looks of it the arcade preset is more limited in how much it can restrict the khz frequency. I ended up restoring the specs to default.

I was wondering, I don't need to input all the Arcade OSD values, just the first and third for front and back porches? Wondering whether I should be entering the middle value too.

Ultimately I ended up settling on ntsc preset, I know it's not completely optimal, but I get a very stable image across all systems I've tested. I just found it too distracting to see various visual anomalies on various systems (ranging from wiggles, snake crawling under the image, flickering etc), especially when the fix is basically to run them the way I am now (and arcade preset can't seem to take in those values). Maybe other late consumer Sony tv owners are not as sensitive to any visual imperfections but at this point I favor stability and would take an ever so slightly inaccurate emulation over spot on but unstable. I do take issues on games that run too far off from the specs though, ideally anything under 58khz I would want to find a way to tweak so that they could still run at proper speeds, but at this point am unsure how to proceed with that, but mentally readying myself for it.  :D

These are some of the worst offenders in my sets:

astyanax                        56.19
cosmic cop                      55
dragon breed                  55
lightning swords              55
mortal kombat 1~3+U3   54.7

Right now the MK games work perfectly at least visually, but I can't see myself seriously playing MK games with such a gap in khz since I would certainly feel the difference at that level.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 02:46:40 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2019, 03:34:35 pm »
Not sure who are those other late Sony TV owners you mention, but the context for those here rarely are the US, Japan or other NTSC countries, I'm afraid. 50~60-Hz RGB Sony sets normally do wonders for low-res gaming, even for inordinate stuff such as Irem (~55-Hz) games, which are often a no-no for other TVs and even some arcade monitors. In fact, your approach (RGBHV-transcoder-component video) is not common for GM usage, I'd say, and I believe most users in those regions take the arcade monitor or the professional (broadcast, etc.) monitor routes, and even the old Commodore monitors for the Amiga, despite the tiny size. You're still in the very beginning and eager to get it all working and whatnot, but there'll be a moment when you realize that speeding up ~10 % games like R-Type is not really acceptable (no matter if the PS port indeed did this).

Also,  m o s t  arcade games are below 59.50 Hz.

Check and learn about your TV's service menu; maybe there's something there which can help to mitigate the issues or, who knows, even solve them. But consider looking for an alternative the sooner the better.

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2019, 03:45:56 pm »
Neilalphazeta, in what country You are live?

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2019, 04:05:37 pm »
Recap> Yes I realize, but the bulk of arcade games running at 59.xx are not going to make a difference when pushing to 59.95khz, I play a lot of King of Fighters (been playing 98 since 98 and still to this day) and even when playing on consolized MVS units made for NTSC tv's such as the ones by Jamma Nation I never notice any difference in the timings of my moves or the frames (the difference is roughly a 1.4% increase I believe). But yes once you approach the 58khz range and below it might start becoming more noticeable, especially in fighting games and shooters. By 55khz the increase is as you say, almost 10%, which I agree is sadly not acceptable for serious playing. Still it is better the games run than not.

I was looking up these video anomalies in the past for other systems and found there was actually quite a lot of documentation on these issues on other message boards for issues on super guns and Neo Geo systems running them to consumer tv's. There was no solution that I ever heard of, (some people did scan through all the service menu settings on these and could not find anything, including on my preferred model). I believe the result of this led many of the more serious consolized mvs makers to include this modification to 59.95khz by default. The only instances where I have read users say they solved the issue is when running them on large tv sets such as 32 or 36 inches, but even then that's just for the Neo Geo, I highly doubt they would be issue free running something like Astyanax or Cosmic Cop when i see the mess it makes on a 20 or 24 inch tv.

I tried profesional monitors. I had a few of those 20 inch BVM units cause they were heralded as being the holy grail of gaming, and to be frank I was really disapointed. The image they produce reminded me of emulators on an lcd monitor running thick scanlines, it just doesn't look anything like I remember games looking like both in the arcades and at home, but of course this is just a subjective thing, many people swear by those pro monitors.


Haynor666> I live in the US. I've lived in Europe in the past so I have some familiarity with 50khz tv's too (especially having to find a crt that would run North American game systems).
« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 04:15:36 pm by Neilalphazeta »

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2019, 04:09:11 pm »
Most of popular TV brands in Europe are accepting 50 - 60 Hz signals especially models from 1990 and newer. Only some polish and german TV are tend to works weird with NTSC signal. Sadly it might be harded in US finding TV that works with range 50 - 60 Hz.

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2019, 04:11:28 pm »
Most of popular TV brands in Europe are accepting 50 - 60 Hz signals especially models from 1990 and newer. Only some polish and german TV are tend to works weird with NTSC signal. Sadly it might be harded in US finding TV that works with range 50 - 60 Hz.

Yes, at the time it was starting to become possible, on tv's in the late 90's that weren't compatible I would get a black and white picture when trying ntsc I remember. Sadly I'm pretty sure there are no good TV's here that accepted 50hz, maybe some of the larger later units like the xbr but the resolution is awkward for retro gaming on those.

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2019, 07:15:31 pm »
What you point about the NG/MVS case is curious, since the system was indeed designed after NTSC TV specs (and, in the early nineties, screen sizes over 29'' were the exception). I wonder if older (than yours) NTSC TVs do also suffer from this limitation or if perhaps it's just a USA trait.



Quote
I tried profesional monitors. I had a few of those 20 inch BVM units cause they were heralded as being the holy grail of gaming, and to be frank I was really disapointed. The image they produce reminded me of emulators on an lcd monitor running thick scanlines, it just doesn't look anything like I remember games looking like both in the arcades and at home, but of course this is just a subjective thing, many people swear by those pro monitors.

Most of those never saw an arcade monitor or a good RGB TV and just repeat whatever his everyday youtuber said. It's a US-only thing, be aware. Said that, there's not just one kind of pro monitors. You most likely had some high-end models, with 800~600 TVL, which are overkill for gaming. Broadcast monitors of ~500 TVL can get a gaming picture as perfect as it gets, with the downside of small scren sizes. SNK used PVMs to show up professionally their AES games, for instance.

« Last Edit: January 24, 2019, 07:20:19 pm by Recapnation »

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2019, 07:24:31 pm »
Yes I know, it's very weird that SNK went with a standard that was slightly off (iirc it was 59.15khz).   ???
I think older tv's might have been less sensitive to the difference than the 2000 era tv's which a lot of gamers tend to favor now a days.

I actually had many of them (bvm/pvm), I tried everything, this meant getting scart adapters (I even had the gwscart in the early days of him making it) all those scart cables, bnc adapters etc, and all that to end up wanting to go back to regular good old consumer crt's lol. Although admittedly 600 line pvm's were not as bad as the 800 line bvm's I had (I had the G model 20g1u).

By the way I realize that Mame has a kh setting, I can change a game running at 57 to higher or lower for example. Is this a workable albeit cheap method of fixing the speed by reverse slowing down a game to bring it back closer to original specs?

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2019, 08:22:48 pm »
Sadly I'm pretty sure there are no good TV's here that accepted 50hz, maybe some of the larger later units like the xbr but the resolution is awkward for retro gaming on those.

Just have patience... there are plenty of options aside from Sony's.

Aside from all the European/SCART brands you missed out on in the US (e.g. Loewe, Grundig, Blaupunkt, B&O, Siemens, etc.) there are plenty other mainstream options that will surely do as you will (e.g. Sanyo, Sharp, Philips, Toshiba, etc.)

I refuse to believe that their aren't some models in there that will happily sync anything in the 50 to 60 Hz range. I'm sure there'll even be a Sony chassis that can do. Just a matter of seeking them out.

As an example, I have RGB-modded several Philips and Sharp sets (they're mounted in arcade cabs) and the act like good ol' dumb arcade monitors (perfect sync, perfect vertical centering upon resizing).

That said, the Sony models you have mentioned are extremely popular. Have you asked on the CRT Collective?
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Neilalphazeta

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Re: How to set geometry on a" per system basis"
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2019, 12:58:59 am »
First time I hear of the CRT collective, very interesting. Thanks for sharing, I'll definitely look into that community.  :)

Yes probably the non Japanese brands might be more likely to have 50hz compatible models. I'm pretty sure most Japanese brands didn't release 50hz compatible tv's in the States, Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, probably Toshiba but I'm less familiar with their line ups. I wish they did.

As for the sensitivity of earlier tv's I think it's also the move to digital chassis, and also the silver case tv's of the 2000's generally have less good shielding in my experience. You can see it even just opening up the back. The result is sometimes one can catch interference on the signals of these tv's, not even talking about interference from the surroundings, but even just internal interference. I've seen it even with the better models, if you display solid colors depending on the source you might see some kind of very faint lines of interference when up close. Still to me it's a worthy trade off because many of these tv's produce the best colors, sharpness and general picture that I've found on consumer tubes.

Anyway my impression is that these same sensitivities are possibly what causes these minor picture fluctuations when running off ntsc standard video. Again I have to stress that to many viewers it may not be a problem, maybe many would not even notice them, but it's generally there nevertheless and to those who do catch these picture anomalies it can be very irritating.

By the way Recap, I didn't know the story of SNK showing off their goods on PVM's, good stuff. I think there's a lot to like in PVM's, these monitors were very much ahead of their times in many ways, but to me it's just that the picture on these rarely looks like what I expect from a crt, meaning what I was used to seeing both in arcades and in homes throughout my childhood.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 01:02:42 am by Neilalphazeta »