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Author Topic: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz  (Read 816 times)

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Neilalphazeta

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Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« on: January 22, 2019, 03:34:29 pm »
I find my Sony consumer tv (KV-20FV300) doesn't seem able to deal with anything below 58 or 59hz properly, so games develop serious wobbles or waviness to them. I was going down the list to see what games worked and which had issues and already at the letter A was Alien Storm (which according to the database runs at 57.23 Hz) the image was very unstable almost as if snakes were rolling under the image. Even if it means loosing something in accuracy is there a solution to push it back closer to 60hz? I also have an issue with the Mortal Kombat games where the entire image just continually rolls upwards rendering them unplayable. Very unfortunate considering those are some of my personal favorites.

Recapnation

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2019, 06:11:25 pm »
Create a machinename.ini with:

resolution                XxY@f

Where "XxY@f" is the "label" associated with the video mode you want to use according to Arcade OSD (so you must have the mode previously installed in your system) and disable GM's v-sync. There's a better approach which involves Arcade OSD and pasting and editing there the original modeline (chapter F.2 in Eiusdemmodi's guide) since you can check the results on the fly, but really, is your problem related to your TV set or may it bet the transcoder's fault? I don't know much about non-RGB NTSC TVs but it sounds a bit odd that they have troubles going below 58 Hz, especially for a Sony set. Not totally discarded, though.

Whichever the case, using a setup which won't allow below 58 Hz is never a good idea unless you're only interested in emulating consoles or some particular arcade games.

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2019, 02:16:03 am »
Thank you! I will try that tomorrow.

The tv itself can go below 58 but the image really starts showing side effects at 59.15 or so, it begins with some minor wobble of the picture. By 58 around there is just gets too pronounced in my opinion, but different people might have different sensitivities to it.

Calamity

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2019, 03:30:03 am »
Actually all you need to do is to restrict the vertical refresh interval, like this (for example):

crt_range0  15625-16200, 58.00-61.00, 2.000, 4.700, 8.000, 0.064, 0.192, 1.024, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

(in mame.ini, obviously)

That will force the refresh rate within a certain range to avoid video issues on your TV.

Now, because syncrefresh is turned off by GM when the refresh is too far from the target, this will make many games show stuttering (e.g. Irem). It's up to you to increase the -syncrefresh_tolerance value (2.0 Hz by default) in mame.ini to have more or all games be forced to sync at the wrong refresh, making them run smooth though faster.

As Recap pointed, the situation is far from optimal anyway.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:41:04 am by Calamity »
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2019, 10:02:52 am »
Would it be better for me to do that manually to the arcade_15khz preset or just to pick the ntsc_15khzpreset? When I tried ntsc preset everything works really well, but are games running too fast or are they running like they do in regular mame on an lcd (just running at original speeds but at 59.95khz iirc)? Since I'm learning how to work with these I'd be happy to attempt to solve this from the arcade preset if it's your recommendation I do so from there.

So if I understand correctly, if I edit the preset as you showed me games will still be running at correct speed so slow games such as Irem titles that run around 55khz (Cosmic Cop games etc) will display stuttering? In order to correct the stuttering I need to force the force the games to run faster by increasing the syncrefresh tolerance value, is this correct?


Mortal Kombat has issues even in the ntsc preset as the colors appear completely off. Which reminds me, is there any way to change the colors through mame or other software? I guess the fact that this is rgbhv and not rgbs is giving me overly strong reds I think.
EDIT: Actually restoring gamma to 1.0 pretty much solves most of my color/brightness issues. Amazing how following guides can sometimes make things harder to solve.  :'(
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 12:26:30 pm by Neilalphazeta »

cools

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2019, 10:07:27 am »
Syncrefresh_tolerance 999 ftw.
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2019, 02:13:31 am »
Syncrefresh_tolerance 999 ftw.
Is that like the Konami code of mame.ini settings?

pubjoe

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2019, 06:25:16 am »
When I tried ntsc preset everything works really well, but are games running too fast
Yes, and you didnít notice.

or are they running like they do in regular mame on an lcd (just running at original speeds but at 59.95khz iirc)?
When your monitor range is so limited you basically have three options for putting up with incorrect sync: Tearing, stutters or a smooth but incorrect speed.  We prefer the latter.  At its most basic level this is what GroovyMAME does, while syncing audio smoothly with the incorrect video speed.

If you create a custom syncrefesh range for your monitor then the difference in speed will usually be less than 1%, you might notice it on edge cases such as Mortal Kombat with a ~10% speed difference but even then you may find it preferable from the stutters. Thatís why cools likes an unlimited tolerance.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 08:14:16 am by pubjoe »

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2019, 09:49:44 am »
I wasn't aware. So much to learn. I think the bulk of games in my list run at 59.xx and even the ones I am most familiar with I can't make out any difference fortunately.

What is the method of getting the game to keep it's speed and inject screen tearing instead? For games that I'm familiar with like Mortal Kombat I'd take screen tearing over a 10% speed increase if I could.

I mentioned this before but I found there's a way to slow down the game within mame (by altering the xx.xx hz), is that the method to achieve this? I guess doing some calculations I could find the right setting for the game to be running at 54hz of speed on the 60hz tv, but is this the best approach?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2019, 09:53:14 am by Neilalphazeta »

Calamity

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2019, 05:18:04 pm »
What is the method of getting the game to keep it's speed and inject screen tearing instead? For games that I'm familiar with like Mortal Kombat I'd take screen tearing over a 10% speed increase if I could.

You don't want to do that mate. Just leave -syncrefresh_tolerance to the default 2.0 Hz and -triplebuffer will trigger as soon as the refresh is off by more than 2.0 Hz. Triplebuffer means tear-free video, 100% speed, frame-to-frame mismatch trade-off. Better than tearing imo.
Important note: posts reporting GM issues without a log will be IGNORED.
Steps to create a log:
 - From command line, run: groovymame.exe -v romname >romname.txt
 - Attach resulting romname.txt file to your post, instead or pasting it.

CRT Emudriver, VMMaker & Arcade OSD downloads, documentation and discussion:  Eiusdemmodi

pubjoe

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2019, 06:19:41 pm »
I wasn't aware. So much to learn. I think the bulk of games in my list run at 59.xx and even the ones I am most familiar with I can't make out any difference fortunately.
Just for the record, on your TV, 59.xx games will run at original speed. Thereís basically no difference to notice.  With the ďless than 1%Ē speed difference thing I was thinking of 57-58hz games due to the limitation of your TV.  I mention this in case I misled you with a badly written statement.  Yes, GroovyMAME will smoothly sync to any frame rate but the magic happens with mode switching.

Though Iím muddying the water here.  Just make the change Calamity suggested and you should be golden.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 06:58:53 pm by pubjoe »

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2019, 02:03:21 am »
Thank you Calamity for that advice, and thank you Pubjoe for the explanation. I feel I have a better understand thanks to that.  :)

pubjoe

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2019, 07:15:37 am »
Better yet, fix the telly...

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?248996-Sony-WEGA-Trinitron-CRT-TV-service-menu-Tips-Tricks-and-settings-suggestions

Try launching Mortal Kombat in 53hz, then fix the rolling with adjustments to the vertical settings (you need to adjust V-Hold but I donít know what thatíll be labelled as in the service menu).

P.S: write down the default values before you tweak.  ;)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2019, 07:38:01 am by pubjoe »

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2019, 12:20:06 pm »
Better yet, fix the telly...

http://www.neo-geo.com/forums/showthread.php?248996-Sony-WEGA-Trinitron-CRT-TV-service-menu-Tips-Tricks-and-settings-suggestions

Try launching Mortal Kombat in 53hz, then fix the rolling with adjustments to the vertical settings (you need to adjust V-Hold but I donít know what thatíll be labelled as in the service menu).

P.S: write down the default values before you tweak.  ;)

I checked the service manual and adjustment items with their descriptions and despite there being a boat load of items (hundreds) there is no setting for adjusting the V-Hold unfortunately (I looked at every setting for any vertical setting or any setting using the word "hold"). Great thinking though.

By the way out of curiosity does anyone understand what the H and V upper and lower pulse settings do?

cools

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2019, 08:22:54 am »
It could also be labelled V.SYNC
Please don't PM me with support questions. Ask in public so everyone can learn!

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2019, 10:13:50 am »
It could also be labelled V.SYNC
I've found a few items with sync in them but they're either 0 or 1 or on/off items so this doesn't seem to be it. Guess it's not on these chassis after all.

pubjoe

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2019, 11:14:12 am »
Thatís a shame.  Iíve read that some CRTs with digital OSDs still have inaccessible pots for some functions like this.

Neilalphazeta

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Re: Is there a way to force some games to stick to 60hz
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2019, 02:16:17 pm »
Thatís a shame.  Iíve read that some CRTs with digital OSDs still have inaccessible pots for some functions like this.
There may be something like that. I remember the inside had a few unnamed pots (the only clear ones were G2, 2x for convergence and the focus). I probably wouldn't want to touch things I'm not familiar with though, not expert enough on this. I appreciate the advice though.